UNCUT - Distant Voices (DS9 S3E18) | Star Trek Journey 355
Comments (112)
I'm a bit more in the middle than most on this episode. I gave Move Along Home a C-, and this is slightly better, so straight C tier. Ryan pointed out a lot of good things in this one that I didn't even think of. That said, the criticisms are also quite valid. As I said in my take, makeup was pretty good, old age performance, not the worst, but not great either. Still, The Passenger was by FAR a worse Bashir ep. As many said, the Garak/Bashir scenes were great, Bashir getting over his melancholy about turning 30 and overcoming his regrets is nice character growth, and I do like a lot of the creepy, haunted house vibes of the abandoned station. The liminal spaces and dream like feel throughout as other comments pointed out. I don't dread rewatching this one, but it's just there for me.
I love this dynamic. Josh goes on at length with insightful, cogent critiques, and then Alex says “What he said!” And then goes on to articulate more insightful, cogent analysis using different words (often metaphors and bvisual language). Dudes casually throwing out synergy with their sympathetic vibrations.
A bit of trivia about Alexander Siddig: his Uncle, Malcolm Mcdowell played villain Dr. Tolian Soran in the 1994 film Star Trek Generations, making Star Trek a family affair... 👍
Next Time on Star Trek: Watch Bashir walk really slowly! Than he crawls really slowly! See a Episode where the Writers think, you are too slow to get the Plot on your own! (D Tier Episode. A shame because it could have been an easy B Tier in the right hands. But the Score was good:)
Another episode that I either never saw or have zero recollection of. Regardless I guess I liked this a little more than either of you guys. I thought it was okay...
I loved this episode when it first aired. But then... I can't remember to have rewatched it. On the rewatch today I really enjoyed the details like Bashirs voice adapting to the age etc.
I think this ep won an Emmy for makeup
This was honestly hard for me to watch a second time. I had to take several breaks. Bashir's exposition dump at the 20 minute mark is so brutal. I could see your faces shift during that scene as you went from bought-in to "Past Tense" mode over the course of a couple minutes. That was exactly where the episode lost me as well. I will say that I like the introduction of the "Happy Birthday" bridge scene. It's bright, colorful, and uncanny after an entire episode of nearly unlit DS9 tunnels. Unfortunately, they *immediately* ruin the vibe by tracking Bashir as he sloooooowly, shaaaaaakily, leeaaaaaaning on Garak, shuffles to a small staircase that takes what feels like... five... eternities... for 100 year old Bashir with a broken hip to slowly... step. by. step. pull. himself. up. I just can't with this episode, lol
Well if you think the exposition is bad in the episode, the Paramount Plus synopsis is "Comatose and dying after an alien attack, Bashir must access different parts of his personality, which take the form of crew members, to save his life" Man, this episode was dull. P.S. I heard there's an extended director's cut, where we get to see old-man Bashir wrestle with his broken hip and get up a bunch more times to open random panels!
The premise of this episode is so good. Like others have said below, the over-the-head exposition kills it. I still don't think it's terrible.
Looking at the rest of the season awhile back this was the only other episode the rest of the season I wasn't overly keen on....jest meh to me mostly and not overly memorable. Now the rest of the season should be pretty good.
You guys convinced me on this episode. I used to think of this episode as a highlight of Season 3 because of the cool idea, and the bits we learn about Bashir at the end. But I never wanted to admit that I was always bored on every rewatch of this episode, and now I know why. The episode wants you to believe it's a great mystery/bashir character episode, but it actually isn't. It's execution completely falls flat. The episode starts out great, but as you said, as soon as they explain everything to you at the 20 min mark, nothing happens for 20 mins except Bashir crawling around the station as an old man until the last 5 mins when we finally get some good moments. If this episode had not given away what was happening until the end, that would have helped with the mystery and the tension. But I think the episode also needed to dive deeper into using this experience to actually explore Bashir as a character. Instead of saying "Chief, you represent my doubt. Kira, you represent my aggression" let those characters teach us different things about how Bashir thinks and what he struggles with. And as you said, don't spell it out for us. A lot of great potential here, but it unfortunately doesn't live up to it.
I wasn't going to even do the watchalong, but I have. Yikes, this exposition monologuing is even worse than I remembered. My God, Joe Menosky, Behr, Wolfe. Why does Bashir explain the same thing over and over again? I was getting so frustrated in the middle of the episode. WE GOT IT, writers! Enough! It is astounding that the same writer's room can produce this episode and also some great episodes this same season! Yikes, this episode is really bad. I think this is the first time I've watched it in over a decade. Ugh, some good ideas, but wow, the execution is just terrible. Ah well. At least it's over and we don't have to watch it again! Wooo!
Oh, it's this episode. The one where the writers have Bashir painstakingly explain every single thing to the audience, as if we're not seeing the same things he is. Apparently we're all just too dumb to get it after he explains it the first time! I honestly think removing all of that would substantially improve the episode. The concept is okay. If they wanted to explore some things about Bashir as a character, that's fine. But there has to be a better way to do that than this. This one has always been at the bottom of my episode rankings for Season 3, along with Meridian. Though I will say that the opening and closing scenes with Bashir and Garak are good. So, at least it's got that.
I can watch and enjoy this episode with no volume (ima try that actually). To me, this is a horror-art piece. They actually nailed the feeling of being in a dream, with scenes shifting the way they do, the random elements like tennis balls, and characters being aspects of our personality, not to mention the liminal locations. Yes, the exposition was unnecessary and part of me thinks it could have been studio meddling. The studios (to this day) want everything explained for the popcorn crowd. (come to think of it, Night Terrors over on TNG had this problem too....another visually disturbing episode.) If we stripped out the exposition, and added more horror and surrealism, this actually could have been an S for me. However, as it stands, all that needless dialogue brought the overall package to a C+ Above average but it could have been way better and should have been.
Oh. This episode. *Rolls over, goes back to sleep.*
Is this episode what the animated movie Inside Out is based on?
Garak and Julian having their first spats. How adorable! Siddig does a really good job of acting like an elderly man though. And I do like the deep dive on Bashir's background. Didn't anyone mention Michael Westmore won an Emmy for makeup in this episode?
This episode is brought to you by the letter D.
Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast waiting room...
spoiler?
Rober Hewitt Wolfe used this episode to recitfy a mistake his wife, who was a nurse made fun of him for writing - Bashir telling his story of messing up the nerve with a fiber in his Medical School Final being something a first-year medical student wouldn't make. So they used that continuity to add some depth to his character by saying it was an intentional screw up.
Writing credits are more about who gets paid for what, not necessarily who contributed what. For actors, position in the credits affects payment. Guest-Star is usually alphabetical, but "guest-starring as" usually pays more. "With" & "and" have their own pay bumps, and "introducing" is special, but not sure about the pay bump. "Special guest-star" is also seperate from the other guest star credits, but I'm not sure of the hierarcy. And again, who's first matters too. And then Main characters are it's own thing of contracts and billing is different for that, as we see DS9 goes Alphabetical, but TNG and Voy Have Captain's first, then their XO's at least.
The mid-Season-3 doldrums continue.
Doldrums?
Worst Bashir episode since The Passenger. D+
Another fail from Ronald Moore. ;-p I give it a C. I enjoyed a good chunk of it.
I'm sure he'll get the hang of this "science fiction story writing" stuff eventually
The more I've learned about Joe Menosky behind the scenes the more I'm like wtf. He does some great stuff but he also does some garbage and from what I've seen he always believed in disregarding canon if it benefited the individual story which is a philosophy I very much disagree with.
Agreed. SFDebis cannot stand him. And the more I learned, I see why. He takes BIG swings, and sometimes lands. But when it doesn't....wow! Here's the thing. He's sure not a hack! (He's actually the anti-hack). He takes risks, he loves the esoteric, may be a bit pretentious, and he doesn't give a shit about continuity. He's a fantastic writer. He's horrible for Star Trek. He would be a fantastic surreal horror novelist, along with Clive Barker or Mark Z. Danielewski (House of Leaves), but I don't believe he was a good fit for Star Trek.
The episode pulls off the impossible: A Garak episode I don’t like
Tennis balls. That's all I remembered about this. Snooze.
Hmm, surprised so many people are real down on this episode. Maybe because I am a fan of symbolism and metaphor myself, I seem to like Joe Menosky's stories more than most, despite their flaws. Yes this episode is overly clunky with the exposition, but I really like the idea of using a sci-fi concept (a telepathic alien attack) to explore Julian's mind and fear of aging. And I think the early coma reveal was necessary to prevent the audience from getting ahead of the characters, and also so that the episode no longer had to mirror reality anymore and could become far more surreal and interesting. For me, the tension was not in whether or not Bashir would die, but in how he would get out of the situation he was in, so the reveal didn't deflate my enthusiasm for the rest of the episode. It's an interesting angle to explore getting older as gradually losing parts of yourself, and I don't think it's a coincidence that Julian's confidence (Dax), and skill (Sisko) are the first aspects to go, while doubt (O'Brien) is one of the last. In the end, when Julian is old and grey, every part of himself is gone and all that's left is his regrets, which the Lethian reminds him of. It's only once he makes peace with his choices that he is able to reinforce his strength of will and sense of identity, defeating the alien and gaining a new lease on life, both literally and figuratively. Perhaps I am being too generous, but the character introspection that is explored here makes this episode a B, in my opinion.
I love the concept, dislike parts of the execution mostly in the ham-fisted exposition where it literally makes no sense (Bashir realizes he's in a lucid-coma dream and continues to interact with "himself" personified via the station crew continuously stating what we already know). The concept itself is interesting enough to elevate it to high C for me, maybe low B. Especially the Bashir and Elim interactions (both in the real world and coma dream state). It's amazing though, thinking about such a simple change massively benefiting the whole. Remove the monitor exposition scene revealing Bashir is in a coma, maybe keep one line from Dax in the real world talking about saving someone to provide a clue, and remove all exposition from Bashir speaking to "himself". Just that would drive this up a full grade easily.
The exposition is quite heavy and that drags it down a lot, no doubt. But, I enjoy it enough for the ending and also the various interactions with the fake crew, you can tell how much fun they had acting as bizarro versions from Julian's mind.
Skip
Seeing this pop up now is like a jump scare since I always think of it as a Season 1 episode.
Yeees. An episode I tend to skip.
How I'd change the episode ... Drop the exposition, trust your audience to reach the right conclusions after the comms come online and reveal the coma. Don't make aging the main focus, broaden out to all of Bashir's anxieties, fears, regrets.
"The audience is too dumb to get it unless we really explain it" is almost always a huge mistake.
this was a B- for me not the greatest epiode but an ok Bashir ep, you could tell Alex was checked out so it really did'nt matter. And watch all the exposition they hate here and the technobabble they will glow about on Voyager Bank on it
😂
To me this show is one of the leftovers of the old guard management at DS9. Didn't hate it, but it was just ..there. I wish there was more details and stories about this time in DS9 production. It really was going through this a huge sea change this season. Handing off of showrunning duties from Michael Piller to Ira Steven Behr, the push to tell serialized storytelling against all the logic of the syndication model, and the promotion and faith of Paramount brass basically disappearing from DS9 in favour of Voyager, which was basking in huge fan and critical acclaim at the time.
Power Rankings: 1) Nebula 2) Pulsar 3) Blue Lightning 4) Extraneous Exposition
You guys seemed slightly puzzled at Phenomenon's Name -- I'm assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that it's a take off on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbZ_hTEOKZc
It absolutely is!
guess the boys need direct mind input so that there's no exposition. Bahir was thinking it out in his mind how else do they want the story to unfold. And the Deadly Years is a great episode
I'd not realised that this was mostly disliked by fans. It's certainly not one of my favourites, but i still love it. I'm happy if an episode entertains me, which this does. I find it a fun, easy watch. So i stand by my rating of low A/high B.
Is it over yet? 🤦♂️
Thankfully.
When you listed off Menosky's credits, I noticed a pattern. He seems to favor stories where the characters are not behaving like themselves, or embodying some other character. Not that he's the only writer to do this in Star Trek. I also feel like his dialogue feels very theatrical, not natural.
You know, Move Along Home wasn't even that bad, I'd take that swing and miss over this swing and miss any day. Let's re-write it! is perfect.
I think this episode is slightly better than Move Along Home, in terms of the production value, as well as for the minor insight into Bashir we get at the end, and especially for the bookend Garak/Bashir scenes. However, I'd enjoy watching Move Along Home more than I enjoyed watching this one.
We will never figure out what Quark symbolized! They didn't tell us!!
the part of Bashir that's a pussy
William Sharner was great in that episode
I think part of the problem is the overall season budget, which requires station-bound episodes, or ones using 90% existing props/makeup/etc. So given how ambitious some episodes are.......
There isn't anything that will really save this episode, but keep it in the back of your mind for down the road. There will be a moment later that might make you wonder if ISB had mapped something out already or if it was just a lucky coincidence. Even with that though, this one probably sits in the bottom 10% of all DS9 episodes.
Oh, right. I know exactly what you're talking about and it just occurred to me while rewatching this one. Very... curious.
Just re watched this a week or two ago. I previously had another episode as my series worst, but no longer. This was so painful to get through. Even Profit Motive looks like a masterpiece next to this conglomerate of yuck.
I liked this one WAY more than I expected to, on my most recent rewatch a few months ago. Not saying it was great or anything, but I was surprised by how mellow I felt about it, haha.
Ever since you saw The Deadly Years i knew you'd have some issues with this lol. Personally i give The Deadly Years S, and this borderline between A and B.
What I liked about The Deadly Years is how suicidally incompetent that Commadore was. We've all had that boss amirite?
@10:05. Don't worry, it won't come to that. I'm sure it goes straight to shiny. Picard(o) style.
Never really liked this episode, just boring. High D or low C. At least the next several are very good episodes
I like it when the thumbnail saves me 1:23:30 of my time.
Bleh
I have nothing good to say ...
I do think out of the last eight episodes left this will be your least favorite. After this episode it’s banger thru the end of the season with the exception of possibly one.
This piece belongs in Season 1
I don't think I even need to watch the reaction, the thumbnail says it all.
Not that it matters that much, but I think this is the first time an episode has been watched out of order. I was expecting Voyager's "State of Flux" (Ep 11) today which aired April 10th, 1995. This one aired April 16th, 1995.
I think they are getting the release order by "Memory Alpha's" database. On that, this preceeds State of Flux. This might affect two parters or single episodes depending on the country. I watched in Canada growing up so occassionally, we'd get an episode a day before. UK channels would sometimes air 2 new episodes on the same day.
Bashir looks like his uncle in his age makeup.
Well, I will say the old age makeup is better than the Deadly Years. Decidedly better than Too Short The Season.
I hate the old man performances the voice the white zombie makeup. By the 24th century you could probably be 150 and look 80. Just look at 90 something Shatner now!
Turns out Alex and Josh's high school principal is a TA member. As a result, they will now be repeating the 11th grade.
I didn't realize until this rewatch but... super old Bashir right at the end gives off SERIOUS Tolian Soran/Malcolm McDowell vibes.
They're related, right?
Not a great episode. I was on my phone for half of the rewatch. Such a shame. Could have been such a great opportunity to dive more into Bashir's character. The few minutes of that we got at the end is the only thing I really like about this one.
I'm touched! You really did try to get the "Mahna Mahna" link to my username right. It has a long history between me, my dad and my sister. When I was a kid, the three of us were watching Star Trek and as Spock said "phenomenon", I followed it up with "Doo, doooo, dah doo doo!". Dad nearly spit his drink across the room and my sister hit me because that earworm would be in her head all day. Look up "Mahna Mahna" on YouTube if you don't know the classic Muppet Show skit. The best jokes are always the ones that need two paragraphs to explain 😉😁
I love that Muppet Show skit. My father and I would also make this "doo doo do doo doo" joke all the time with any words or names that sounded similar. It's a wonderful skit to demonstrate both how simple and how hard comedy can be.
For me, this is pretty much the only "meh" Garak episode. Not terrible though. I think I would give it a high D or low C.
Garak is good in it!
Not the worst bad Trek episode. While I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, I still thoroughly enjoy it C for camp
Yeah, this one. Yeah.
Nice treat for a snow day! I think I only ever watched this episode once so it was like new to me now. I do kind of remember why I don’t include it in rewatches though. Though it is funny to realize that it’s easier to break into a space station Federation drug locker centuries into the future than it is to get razor refills from the locked cases at Walgreens.
I'm the weirdo who loves "Masks" and "Emergence", so perhaps not surprisingly I have a bit of a soft spot for this one too. I do think Bashir's old-age acting is pretty weak, and I agree that the nature of each character as representing part of Bashir's mind was spelled out much too bluntly.
I feel similarly on this episode, and I also enjoy "Masks" and "Emergence", so you are not the only weirdo, lol!
I always enjoy this episode. It's light, doesn't take itself too seriously, and I always enjoy an episode where Garak features. There is a lot of exposition, agreed, and I don't like when shows/film have to lead the audience by the hand. I see some of the comments have some interest ideas, especially delving into a bit more of a horror vibe. That would be good, but this is mid 90's TV. You get what you get ;)
What was hinted with the medical prize story is confirmed here. Bashir suffers from a Quarterlife Crisis. Typical between 25 and 30. I had mine when I turned 25. To solve it it took a change of job and a dramatic love affair. At least nothing life threatenig like Julian had to go through. And better written by life than by Joe Menosky.
Mine was post 25 it just felt like a natural progression until 26. Then I started to realize there was no going back..
I enjoyed this one purely for the cinematography and horror visuals. I think this was an homage to Nightmare on Elm Street. I do think the exposition was a little ham-fisted. A Banger? Nah. C+ ps: I agree with Alex's assessment about Hollywood. The way I heard it described is, Hollywood is the one business where you can fail upward.
Not for some. Thunderbirds kinda ruined Frakes film career.. Alien 3 almost ruined David Finchers career before it even began.
This one reminds me of the swings and misses from seasons 1 & 2. At least they took a swing, and it still has plenty to appreciate, but I have to agree the way it is written always makes me kind of dread this on a rewatch... Not bad enough to skip mind you (there are those episodes...), but because I know it will be tedious. (That Bajoran hottie at the birthday party though...) Not as tedious as "Masks" or "Emergence" at least. My perfect rewrite of this would be straight up confusion & horror; lean heavily into the Nightmare on Elmstreet / IT vibes, and don't explain anything until the end, if at all. For everyone still confused about why "Past Tense" or "Time's Arrow" are not good, it is this similar level of tedious, on the nose writing. A great premise can be executed poorly, and Star Trek does this from time to time... Even premises so good we mostly forgive the sins and nostalgically defend (I'm guilty of this too).
Times arrow is in no way perfect, but as far as part 1’s go I think it was a fun one.
Welp, to each their own. I love this one. That doesn't mean it's good, it just means I find it fascinating. The exposition dumps are clumsy, but that's a lot of '90s TV, and I give them huge points for explaining the mystery before it becomes too obvious. And I really enjoy Alexander Siddig's descent into old-man defiance. If he couldn't play old age plausibly this would have completely fallen apart, but he elevates it beyond what was on the page. I will say too that this hits a lot harder now that I'm past 30. High C from me for being a miss but a fun swing.
Better on later watches like many DS9, TNG, TOS…..i like this better than masks or emergence but love hero worship
Always got the sense this was an attempt to expand on who Bashir was beyond his job title. They almost got there too.
File under dull. Next!
I never made the connection with The Deadly Years. Interesting. There are moments, when Julian is 100+, where he says "hm?" and he reminds me very strongly of Yoda.
Josh Bio-Mimetic gel is not heroin. Its bio material that can mimic other material, its almost like what ODO is made of...and can lead to making weapons, clones etc
Weapon clothes! Like venom! 😆
This is not much different than the TOS episode "The Deadly Years" and is a bad remake of that already bad TOS episode....its nice that they TRIED to use exposition to explore the reaction to aging here in DS( unlike in TOS where it was just another "problem"- but they had nothing interesting to say--- a low C or high D
I've been going grey at the sides since my early 20s. Glad someone likes it.
If it's just your "sides", consider yourself lucky 😳🙄
UPN was not available everywhere, and Paramount would not allow first run syndication for Voyager where UPN was not around. I think that is why it's not remembered with as much reverence as TNG or even the enthusiasm of DS9. For me Voyager is the most TOS like of any Berman show. There is a lot to love about that show, and you don't even have to look hard for it. Voyager is my least favorite, 7 season Trek show, but that's like having a least productive gold mine, You still get gold. I say all of that to avoid talking about this dud of an episode. It's a lame 30 minute sitcom premise playing dress up as a sci-fi drama
That's an interesting take. Having not been alive during the first run, I would have assumed Voyager was the trendy, mega-popular Trek in the mid to late 90's. I do know DS9 might very well be the most popular and loved Trek NOW, due to reaching cult status among us younger viewers, but I would have thought it was the dark, bastard step-child at the time.
This one I’ve always found just dull. Needed to be like 10 times more trippy and less expositional to be interesting. I’ve always thought DS9 Season 3 was a bit of a yo-yo, some great episodes, but just very inconsistent in the first two-thirds. My favorite thing about this season is the commitment to ongoing story and character threads that make it feel like everything that happens matters and that the show is greater than the sum of its parts. It makes even the duds worth watching.
Love this one, but these and the next are just keeping us busy for the rest of the season smack down
It is testing my force of will not to say anything about the rest of the season…
I usually skip this one and from that screenshot it looks like I will again 😂