UNCUT - The Jem'Hadar (DS9 S2E26) | Star Trek Journey 328

i'm kind of blown away by the patron reactions to their reaction. It doesn't come off like they hated the episode, but reading the comments, you'd think they both gave it an "E" lmao. "C" still means it's good but flawed from what they've said. And Josh said he'd probably go even higher but didn't specify, so probably a low "B". both pretty good scores. people need to chill TFO

These reactions make me rethink my subscription. I've been questioning it for a while and I don't think its worth it at this point. At first I liked these guys, but slowly and steadily I've disagreed with most of their reactions. They have assumptions and expectations going into the episodes and if the show doesn't meet them, they don't seem to like it.

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 4 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1

Ok, I think even people who love this one can admit that it feels like two completely different episodes mashed together. Alex in particular seems more bothered by the bait-and-switch aspect than the content of the episode itself. Personally, I think 'The Jem'Hadar' starting so chill and low-key is an effective way to lull you into a false sense of security so they can wallop you with this huge sense of escalation in the back half. But I also completely understand someone not liking how disjointed it feels. That said, I also feel people are overreacting like crazy to them being underwhelmed. IT'S THEIR FIRST TIME WATCHING THE SHOW. Please, please keep that in mind folks. First of all, talking about "where DS9 goes from here" is a spoiler in and of itself. Second, the "oh no the plot" thing is because the character stuff from the first half feels like it gets put on the backburner, and I can understand them being worried that the show will continue to do this going forward, ESPECIALLY with people telling them if they don't like this episode they won't like the rest of DS9. Alex and Josh clearly love character-focused Star Trek, and if there is one show in this entire franchise I'm not worried about in that respect, it's this one. Sure, I'm surprised by their reaction too, but this is hardly some kind of death sentence for their experience with this show like some commenters are making it out to be.

One, it is rather difficult to get a Galaxy Class ship to not look like Enterprise-D. Also, the point of the suicide run was that the Dominion fights dirty.

Jesus Christ Alex, if this doesn't impress you, I suggest you stop watching now. Fuck if I'm subscribing to a Patreon where people are underwhelmed by what's coming. And what's coming is regarded by many as the finest Trek to date. I get that people have differing opinions, but you sound checked out at times.

What you have to remember is the threat is not that the Dominion is OP, but that the Dominion is 2 step ahead of the Federation. They already know about all the their allies and enemies. Like Josh said, there are a lot of possibilities out there. At this point, I think Josh will love DS9 and Alex won't.

Its one of those episodes that is better on a rewatch. There's a lot of lore dumping going on.

this was the 2nd highest rated DS9 episode so far with 8.4/10 and one of the highest rated finals. I remember when i watched it as kid i totaly flipped out when thes suicide destroyed the galaxy class ship, i am mindblown you dont like it no matter the context xD

that was a "GALAXY" class ship same as enterprise, not constellation class thats a very different class The Galaxy Class is the "capital" ship of the fleet so bascily every big ship at this stardate is this class.

In what I think is an good throwback to a previous episode the original script for this episode mentioned that the Jem'Hadar shroud is similar to that employed by the Tosk. It also said the Tosk were engineered as a gift to the Hunters as a reward for their loyalty to the Dominion, thus establishing that the Tosk and the Hunters were Dominion members. This was a connection later confirmed by Robert Hewitt Wolfe . On some other interesting sidenotes. This is the last episode to feature the 2360s combadges from Star Trek: The Next Generation (1987) and the first two seasons of "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine." Also the trade negotiations to which Quark refers began in the 1993 episode Rules of Acquisition, which was the first episode to mention the Dominion. Ira Steven Behr has also said this was an intentional way of hinting at future events in an otherwise inconsequential episode. There was also an indirect reference in the 1993 episode Sanctuary to the Dominion invasion of Skrreea, as well as in the 1994 episode Shadowplay.

I think the Dominion isnt there to replace the Borg as the big bad, instead like the cardassians, Klingons and romulons its just another political faction and from the episode..seemingly powerful

I think you'll like this episode a lot better after you watched all of Deep Space 9 I'm new to Patreon and your channel so I hope I'm not violating any spoilers which I'm not trying to do but this really sets up the rest of the series I think if you watch it after you watch all seven seasons of Deep Space 9 you'll like this episode more. Ive read one of the writers comments before and they said that the reason they put the Odyssey as a galaxy class ship was to show that even the Enterprise would've been destroyed by the Dominion

Alright, so having watched the reaction and (mostly) reading through this sea of comments I'll just say this. I think people are overreacting. Yeah I disagree with a number of your takes, but I think it's ridiculous to assume DS9 is doomed and you'll never like it because of this. I do understand the criticism of there being a lot of exposition. However I do feel it was justified here and at least gave us some info on the new player. Maybe a tad overdone at times, but it's like 15-20% as bad as the Armageddon Game scene near the end. As for the Odyssey, that's been beat to death in the comments already. They already had a new ship in the episode, they wanted to show starfleet's best ship type getting bodied, and we've already seen another galaxy class get destroyed. I don't think it was any kind of "middle finger" to TNG, just a classic case of establishing the threat. Using existing ship models is nothing new to trek. What bugs me about the complaint is the episode CLEARLY telegraphed that a ship named the Odyssey was coming to the station. The reaction should have been "I guess the Odyssey is a Galaxy class", not "is that the Enterprise"? There was never any indication. This brings me to my theory. I believe watching this just a week after AGT negatively affected the reaction. You've been talking about TNG cameos on DS9 so much you set yourselves up with that expectation. In that reused shot of the Enterprise docked with DS9 you instantly jumped to thinking it was the Enterprise when there was no reason to think that. I think on some level this dragged down what followed. Most Trek facs had 3 weeks post TNG before getting to this. I watched 90s trek largely entirely out of order, so TNG and the Ent-D weren't even on my mind. I think the break will do you good. For my part, I always felt this ep was a little overrated. I'd give it a solid B+. It's mostly setup, the opening 20 minutes seem out of place with the back half. Still, I think it effectively sets up who the Dominion and the Jem'Hadar are and how far they're willing to go. Is a huge part of all the High A and S scores knowing what happens next? Sure, which is why I downplayed this somewhat over the past few months. Still, I didn't find the reaction to be anywhere near as bad as it was made out to be, and I certainly won't be rage quitting over it. Tons of DS9 left to go, and who knows, you may end up loving Voyager way more than most fans. See you in 2026

Bizarre reaction from the guys for this episode

Let's give Alex and Josh some time. They're having big feelings with TNG ending and that's going to influence them, even when trying to be objective. It's just human nature.

I agree that this one is probably better for those who have seen the whole show, but I expect your reaction is generational as well. I remember going “oh cool! Let’s find out more!” In the90s. It reminded me of my reaction to TNG season one’s Conspiracy, which also appeared to be a set up for the future (at least at first viewing. Now, I find the episode mainly a B, maybe a B- but what I liked was potential set up. You love Jake and Nog. It warms my heart. Their scenes were the best!

You see the USS Yamato in Contagion, which is another Galaxy class ship

Having watched this few days back, for me, the exposition dump was warranted in terms of the story, people from another quadrant have no idea of the local overlords, what else is she going to do, get into some deep conversation? Imagine someone going back in time and asking the sane about the nazis, you're not going to get some deep insightful chat, you're going to get a dump of brutality stories

500

Is this the biggest thread of them all?

I like different viewpoints when there’s some thought behind them. It gives me a different perspective than I get when I’ve only ever watched Star Trek alone. Doesn’t change that I liked this episode the first time and still do. Especially since liking it doesn’t mean I think it has no faults.

It's funny how bored they are of the Dominion when I enjoyed them so much as villains of DS9. They get better as the show goes on! I hope they like them more next season.

The tone felt weird. Seems like these new bad guys are supposed to be seriously bad, but here is also some comedy. 1000 people, die, oh hey, next scene.

I have been waiting for this EPISODE ALL SEASON LONG THIS IS JUST THE BEGINNING

Yeah but blah blah blah reasons blah! I love watching the show with you guys and that you have no idea what's coming. Your honest reactions are great

Ahaha, I think you guys are fair with your takes and the overhyping by the TA. That said, I'm just imagining a whole lotta shifty looks between the audience members from all your commentary.

Gonna be hard waiting for season 3...

It's so funny to me that you guys found the plot to be such an intrusion in this episode. Even when I was seeing this for the first time I remember finding this plot more exciting than you seemed to. After months of teasing about this mysterious entity called the Dominion we get our first real look at them and hints at what they're about. Plus when I first saw who all was going on that runabout I was looking forward to them having an adventure together. This is the adventure they had. I pretty much got everything out of the episode I hope for at the outset. You guys sounded like you just wanted them to sit at their campsite and bicker for 40 minutes. I realize that's a bit of an overstatement but I just don't feel like it's an expectation I understand.

Fittingly enough, Quark actually comments on accepting different viewpoints in this very episode. "You Federation types are all the same: You preach tolerance and acceptance, but only practice it toward people who remind you of yourselves" In The Last Outpost, Ferengi were meant to represent the worst traits of humanity. The things that we are supposed to grow out of. That episode was trying to challenge us to grow beyond those things. But in DS9, and in this episode, Ferengi are meant to represent people who hold different views and values than us, (and I would argue, generational trauma) even if we think their views are wrong and laughably bad. DS9 challenges us, are we going to condemn people who think differently than us? Or are we going to be like Dax and accept them for their differences, and learn that we can still have a lot of fun together once we accept that? Funny that Alex and Josh have become the Ferengi in this example. But again, as Quark says, like the Ferengi, there may be many things that we think people like TA have completely wrong. But there's also lots of things about them that they do better than us. And vice versa. That's the beauty of human diversity, even if it is frustrating. We all have gaps, and we all fill gaps.

On this one, I will simply note, I think a big disconnect between you guys and your audience is a pretty strong PRESSUMED vibe of "this was just not good, these choices suck, they messed it up, this episode IS OBJECTIVELY - fact statement, not opinion - lame, and we're right on this and everyone else is wrong." And, for the record, I am NOT saying you ACTUALLY DO this (in fact, you often make it a point to say how this is just your take, and you understand why others don't agree with it, it's very specific what you're looking for in your TV show, and it's different from what other people want), but I think your delivery and personalities - particularly your unfiltered disdain for stuff you don't like - give a lot of people that impression. Like they feel you're insulting them personally for liking the thing you don't like (which, again, I will stress, you guys CLEARLY do not do). Not anyone's "fault" or anything, just a perception disconnect between you and a lot of your viewers. Can't really say if there's anything to be done about it, and maybe there is something to that contrarianism Alex was mentioning, but I'm not even saying any of this is a "bad" thing, just suggesting an explanation for some of the backlash sometimes.

Haha! Damn I know I should have commented before you guys reacted. I felt the same, it was cool when I first saw this, but it felt less like a 'real episode' in a way. Don't worry, hang in there, the things you love are there in abundance (imo more than TNG). It's exactly what Josh said, people are reacting so positively to this given, they've seen it. Hang in there guys, I'll just say I'm jealous that I'm not first watching DS9 again but watching your reactions, it's like I am! Less 'new big bad' but, another piece on the board, what happens when all these factors start mixing.

"but *insert whatever* is the whole point!!!" Yeah, well, being the point doesn't automatically make it good...

Ok so you guys didn’t like it, fair enough did I laugh my ass off at you guys breaking it down and what you didn’t like? Absolutely and THIS is what I come for on the channel I love it when you guys take the piss out of everything that’s in your opinions wrong with the show, it makes it all so light hearted and entertaining for me personally 👏

I think it's definitely an unfortunate problem that they don't see the ships as "characters" or at the very least as interesting.

I think you guys REALLY underestimate the cost and difficulty of building ship models. In adjusted 2025 dollars the Enterprise D model cost about $1 million to build. They really can't just BUILD new ships super easily especially hero ships that are used for big moments. Also they clearly wanted to show that even Starfleet's largest ship could be easily taken out by the Jem'Hadar, to get anything impactful like that they'd have to design a whole new ship we've never seen that in some way is as imposing and large and impressive as the galaxy class. This was their Hulk gets beat up by Thanos moment. It's a classic storytelling trope to introduce the power and threat of a bad guy, I really don't see the problem. This also shows that there are other galaxy class ships out there, the Enterprise isn't the ONLY ship of this class flying around the alpha quadrant and that makes sense. Using the Enterprise model totally made sense to use for this situation.

I know this sounds harsh but sometimes I feel like they don't have any imagination or ability to see the full picture. "It's not the Enterprise! So don't do that!" It's not the Enterprise but it's a similar ship with a crew that are all people in this world and if we followed the Odyssey in TNG instead of the Enterprise then we'd care about them just as much

1.) It basically being the Enterprise but not is the point. That's a whole crew like ours on the Enterprise and they just got wiped out, their own "ongoing mission" got wiped out just like that 2.) It's cool to see other ships within the same class. The real life navy has dozens of ships that are identical on the outside but the crew on the inside is what makes them what they are

It's maybe one of the biggest differences between 90's TV and current TV. Rather than looking to round off a particular story you'd been telling or putting a button on the growth of certain characters, the emphasis was much more on giving the audience something to chew on during the hiatus from Memorial Day to Labor Day until the show came back. Yes, the Odyssey was very much On Purpose. DS9 is very much the middle child and in its first gulp of unshadowed air it felt the need to shout, "I am NOT TNG! The Enterprise doesn't swoop in and save the day here!" Did it actually need to do that? Debatable. Was it kind of a pseudo-middle finger to a fan base still a bit in grief? Maybe. It's certainly a statement, though. I'm curious what you thought about Quark's humans v. Ferengi stuff? It was kind of the foundation of the episode before Eris ran up, and it seemed to have raised an eyebrow or two.

ALL HANDS ABANDON SHIP

Cool down period recommendation: Shatner's 2 Trek related SNL sketches when hosting in 1986, and Stewart's Trek related SNL sketch when hosting in 1994.

While it sucks you guys didn't vibe with this episode, this reaction is fine. I see why you felt the way you did, and it's NOT because all ships of a class look the same.

I get the muted reaction as it really is an episode that sacrifices itself to the exposition gods to a large degree for the future of the show. Sometimes laying the groundwork is just not as exciting, as many chapters at the 1/4th mark of many great novels show. I'd put this in that camp, and it's hurt a little by the "have the new threat beat up the strongest hero" trope with the Galaxy Class ship, which played better in 1994 when the trope was less familiar and overused for general audiences. Also - I promise you'll come to appreciate Ira Steven Behr.

Most of the time, the guys negativity and cynicism doesn’t bother me, but this one was a little much. Maybe it is a good time for a break.

This is an episode of Star Trek I vividly remember watching live because it aired the day OJ Simpson was having his slow motion police chase and I wasn’t sure I’d get to watch DS9. Then the episode starts and I’m thinking season finale and the great TNG finale events, Borg attack Earth, Klingon Civil War, Lore, Borg and evil Data, and with this we get a camping trip. A fun episode but not a finale then the events from seeing a ship as big as the Enterprise destroyed and the reality we have a new big bad in addition to our others and then you are wondering all summer are they doing something big or is this going to go away in the premiere. It did meet my requirement for a finale which is big consequential stuff has to happen, but this is my 2nd least favorite finale of this series.

That's it. Glorious Season 2 is over. It's all down hill from here. Don't get me wrong, there's some cool ass shit down in the valley, but we won't ever quite be season two ever again.

I hadn’t watched this for years and years, and remembered it being far better than it is. The messing about with quark and nog at the start was so lethargic. I remember how shocking it was at the time to suicide run a galaxy class, but watching it now, it’s only shocking to see Joe Biden in the captain’s chair, in looks, charisma and leadership capabilities. His first officer was the worst actor in DS9 so far too. What the hell was that. And that stupid little bridge that looked like they couldn’t be arsed getting more set pieces out of storage. The only thing it did well was set up the Jem Hadar as a superior force, like the Borg were on their first encounter.

I'm starting to wonder if TA and the fans have the same thing in mind when the fans say "DS9 is all about the characters." Yes, like TNG, there is a lot of great character stuff, and our characters have a lot more to go through here than in TNG. But I think the main reason why people like DS9 is the grand scope, epicness, world building, space opera stories, and complex interspecies politics that we're seeing the beginnings of here. It's definitely not Seinfeld in space. Still, looking forward to see how the boys react to it all. Will they hate it or love it? That remains to be seen.

For those disappointed with this reaction or others. You shouldn’t take it so seriously. You can’t be upset if someone doesn’t love the same episode you do. Maybe you were paying closer attention to episodes and got more out of them. The guys make jokes/talk over 20% of each episode. Even with subtitles, it is impossible to perform a joke, laugh, and absorb plot points simultaneously. It can’t be fun to get hundreds of comments with the same explanations or pointing out the same missed details. It seems to go both ways. There is rarely a reaction lately that doesn’t include a dig at Patrons. Maybe the break in episode reactions will be a good reset.

I wouldn't call this the DS9 version of Best of Both Worlds. Disappointing that it didn't live up to your expectations, but I've long since learned to expect the unexpected with you guys. Not everyone likes the same things so...

QUESTION FOR DISCUSSION - Does Starfleet/Bajor/any Alpha quadrant inhabitant have the right to explore and colonize in the Gamma quadrant or is the Dominion within their rights to establish boundaries?

I would also point out that destroying a galaxy class starship The Odyssey with its hundreds of crew was horrific to those of us watching at the time. It scared us to death to know that this enemy was so brutal and would be coming through the wormhole to make war against the Federation. Just like the introduction to the Borg, this was an enemy with massively superior capabilities. You may have been underwhelmed by this episode but it terrified us.

I love this episode. I am becoming increasingly disappointed and frustrated that you seem to have no interest in general sci fi plots , the technology or sci-fi including the ships . Star Trek has always been credited with launching the careers of so many notable scientists, astronomers ,engineers and astronauts because of its devotion to detail. Why are you comparing a 30 year old TV programme to recent multi million dollar movie franchises? This is unreasonable and unrealistic. You also seem to get bees in your bonnet over trivial issues .

I think at this point Alex might be a little bit of a masochist. :-D Or else he actually cares a little too much and this got him pretty nervous.

I was almost as excited to see this reaction as I was to see the TNG finale reaction and it seems like every time I’m excited for an episode or movie they end up hating it 🤣

I do think the episode does more setup than you may realize. Yes, Eris had a long description of her past and the Dominion, but her almost ghost story around the camp fire-esque tale inside the force field speaks of an almost anti-Federation. One that usurps and conquers entrants - largely for resources it sounds like, rather than the peaceful, diplomatic Federation. It has a dedicated race of soldiers, willing to win at the cost of their own lives, unlike the Federation who has ships of scientists and explorers mixed in with their military. And then we have Quark, talking about how war-like humanity used to be, and practicing in slave trade, calling the humans of the Federation's past barbaric. And what's the contrast? The Dominion, so much like the Federation, but warlike, and enslaving entire planets, if Eris is to be believed. All this iis quite thematic, tied deftly into the character work of Quark and Sisko butting heads, but ultimately working together and appreciating each other's contributions in getting out of that situation. At the start of the episode Sisko was annoyed by Quark and didn't really want to be around him, by the end, Sisko and Quark are standing side-by-side confronting the spy and defending their station - growth. Though I still doubt Sisko will let Quark advertise on the Station monitors.

Alright, this reaction wasn't SO bad. Personally, I like the episode just fine, and it really made me want to watch the next season, but then I ALSO had known things about DS9 ahead of time, but I also admit it's not S-tier either. I will say this, I get the impression Alex didn't vibe with this more because of what the episode wasn't, than what it was. Like, there's a lot of pre-concieved notions at play in here, based off of past experience and a couple incorrect facts, mostly regarding Ira Behr or model reuses. Twice the episode set him up for big things he personally wanted, but rug-pulled him. First with an all camping episode, then with the Galaxy appearance. If I had to guess, both of those are what soured him. As for "the plot" showing up, I will say that because I know you guys are fans of "Seinfeld," a show famously about nothing - where it's ALL character interplay and very rarely external threats to the characters - the reason "Seinfeld" is famous for being that is because it was the ONLY show doing that at the time. And Seinfeld, TNG, DS9 and VOY all ran at the same time. So I'm not saying solely character-focused episodes with no plot WON'T happen, just that it's gonna be a lot rarer than you might think because that wasn't standard practice at the time. So maybe temper your expectations of that kind of episode showing up, so you're not as disappointed when The Plot shows up, and instead be glad of what you get of the character work going on around the plot instead. Especially in such a "high-concept" show where often the plot of the week IS the point. Another thing to point out as wry irony is that, when you initially watch TOS, you discussed having to change your mindset towards more self-contained, episodic TV. DS9 is now asking you to start adjustiing that dial back towards the other way, bit by bit. I do find your response to this similar to your reaction to the BSG S1 finale. Noting it was a lot of set up for the next season. But you guys also addressed WHY TV season finale's are often like this right at the start of the video when discussing your own upcoming hiatus - viewer retention. "Please don't go!" TV shows wanna make sure the audience is gonna come back, set up something so they tune back in three months later for what happens next. That is what the episode is. And based on those merits, divorced from any expectations of crossovers or previous exoerience with the writer, I think it did what it set out to do well enough, IMO.

I think I have a theory after this review...A+J don't get invested in the universe the same way...and this might be a generational thing. In the 90's many of us were DYING to know as much as possible about the ST universe. The zeitgeist of how audiences engage with properties and stories now is different than it was in the time of little sci fi, much more written sci fi, and hard to engage fandoms. The Odyssey blowing up was a big deal precisely because it was a look outside the narrow scope of the TNG and DS9 show. Many of us older sci fi fans are into the sci fi way more than into the character stuff, on balance.

I guess this episode is kind of a worse case scenario for TA, because it sets up exactly the kind of episode they like only to suddenly switch to big epic space opera. For me that's a cool curveball, but for them it's betrayal.

I guess some feel about this reaction the way you felt about the episode “wait….you are leaving us here….”

No DS9 for a whole month? I guess I wasted my money on the subscription then. 😐 See you in a month I guess... 😒

I never considered blowing up a galaxy class ship as a copout or anything. The point here is that it's the most powerful type of ship starfleet has, not that it looks like the Enterprise D.

LOVE this episode. Great fun.

Fans generally love (or keep in high regard) this episode not because it’s an A or even an S but because of what it sets up. The reveal and the threat it poses. The Jem’hadar aren’t your typical alien of the week but part of something far bigger and more threatening. The Dominion basically made it clear they own the gamma quadrant, which is right next door to the station and they don’t like it when you step into their yard. They’re not what you’d call nice neighbors 😬

Personally, this IS bad side of watching in release order, you're still on a downer of the TNG finale, objectively I think this is a A-/B+ easily

What I am most surprised about in this reaction is not the reaction at all, but that people are surprised TA didn't absolutely gush over this? It's a solid episode if you love character moments AND "the plot" for its own sake, but generally speaking, Josh and especially Alex are most fond of moments that elicit intense emotions, could be humor, could be melancholy. Excitement too sure, which usually stems from crazy things happening to OUR characters, the ones we've grown to know and love. This episode for me is probably in the A tier due to context, but on its own, high B tier is about right. And you know what? The single biggest improvement imo would have been to introduce the Odyssey and its crew a few episodes ago. Make us know the humans on the ship that was so wickedly kamikazed into. The only complaint, as others have mentioned, that doesn't make sense, is that the Odyssey is a copy of the Enterprise, well yeah, it's a Galaxy Class ship. They all are more or less the same design. The whole purpose was to evoke horror; a flagship template of Starfleet was so easily destroyed... Still, this point has been beaten to death here in the comments lol. Last note, regarding exposition, as long as the conversation sounds organic enough, it doesn't bother me at all, even if the characters aren't doing anything (and there's a reason they aren't in this case being trapped in a cell). It makes full sense that Sisko would try to gather as much knowledge from this unknown female alien about their captors. But this isn't a big deal, I can see how expository scenes like this might pull you out of it.

Have faith. The series gets much better.

I was SO excited to get to this point, lol. But after watching their reaction I thought about how it's virtually impossible for me to watch S1 and 2 of DS9 objectively. DS9 is my favorite TV Series but I didn't start watching it until maybe S4? And after the show ended I was really excited to see where it all began and yeah, it's a little rough but I have a great time with the earlier seasons. Looking backwards I think this episode is a perfect setup for S3 with a lot of nuance and character interactions. Sure there could have been some tweaks with this ep, but overall the writers set S3 up brilliantly. Something I haven't seen anyone talking about is the metaphor, the imagery of blowing up a galaxy class star ship that looks exactly like The Enterprise. Basically the writers saying, we're moving forward. Get prepared, we're going to do something different. We're not TNG.

Hey Alex - I know you’re going through all the stages of grief because TNG has ended but you’ve got a few weeks here to get that out of your system and then you’ll be able to love again. 😉

Here we go NOW DS9 is starting!

I don't mean to be one of those guys but all Galaxy class ships look just like the Enterprise, all those other ships you see in TNG were different classes. The Galaxy is the biggest, baddest ship the Federation has. Other Galaxy class ships showed up in TNG, like the one that was destroyed by that computer virus in season 1 or 2.

Ah well... This reaction is proof that Josh and Alex can be wrong, just like the rest of us! :)

C, that's crazy! After watching this episode for the first time, I was finally excited about what came next for DS9.

I really admire Armin Shimmerman's (Quark) acting. The part where he scolds Sisko with Earth's morbid past. And at the end where he puffs his chest and boldly utters, "we're better." I always get goosebumps listening to that.

Damn!!! I don't WANT to wait 'till January!!! LOL

In a parallel universe someone is upset Alex spoiled Infinity War

I knew some shit was going down in the comments when I saw that ratio.

you boys need any icyhot after these reaches?

I think another problem of this episode is the special effects just don't deliver in what's supposed to be the climax of the episode. The Enterprise Dupe is just lying there paused on the screen as it gets rammed. It looks weird. It's destruction doesn't look half as good as those in Contagion or Cause and Effect. I think deep down someone knew this because the remastered version looks just awesome. It's a trillion times better. Would probably elevate this episode from a C+ to a B on it's own.

There's just a huge amount of tonal whiplash in this episode. I do appreciate that everyone is just doing normal things and then BAM, bad guys out of nowhere. I think it is a good reflection of how the Federation has treated the Gamma Quadrant so far, but maybe not the best basis for an episode. Still a good episode, but I can see where it feels like the rug has been pulled out from underneath you.

I think there's some selection bias in those Patron Takes, and there's an over-representation of people fanboying about how this episode sets up later stories by properly introducing the Dominion. Calling it DS9's "Best of Both Worlds" is absolutely insane. This episode is only okay. Don't worry. You'll love the show. People holding up this episode as if it's a good representation of DS9's strengths are just wrong.

I'm a little confused about the Ship discussion. Every Starship looks alike, always have, always will. We've known this going all the way back to TOS where I think we even had a shot of four ships in formation to battle the M5.

Not excusing the episode, but the writers were told to shake the show up because the audience thought the character stuff was boring

I think Josh nailed it on the head - this is very much a "Part 1" to the series that come afterwards. Watched on its own it's an OK episode, but most of what makes it better is the rewatch quality. I do like the character moments with Quark and Sisko a lot, I enjoyed the Odyssey destruction a lot too, but overall it's a lot of groundwork-laying. Solid C.

I have been eager for this point all season. Watching this episode as a 14 yo, it absolutely blew my mind. A villain was introduced that not only made the main cast feel weak, but kamikazed a Galaxy class starship, and we finally got more details on this Dominion thing. And the Jem'Hadar in this episode had swagger, arrogance for miles. This was the "aha" episode for me with DS9...I couldn't wait for the summer to end so I could see what this Dominion thing was all about. Especially with TNG just ending, this episode kept me Trek buzzed. Altho I will say I appreciated the Bajoran stories much more on a rewatch as an adult than as a teen.

Let's fucking go!!!

This is an example of why being willfully and proudly dismissive of the technical side of this Star Trek thing is self-defeating. Without an understanding that the Galaxy Class is a CLASS OF SHIP, and therefor nearly identical, the importance to the narrative and the thematic value of the loss of the USS Odyssey is completely missed...and instead of the significance of it...it gets dismissed as cheap duplicate of the Enterprise for production reasons. Instead of "Sweet! A Galaxy Class! A capital ship! A heavy cruiser! Starfleet isn't dicking around!" its...."Oh, a cheap knockoff, because all Federation ships are for some reason entirely unique instead of organized into different classes." The Klingons, the Cardassians, the Romulans etc...also use very similar looking classes of ships. They aren't all unique individual designs. There are hundreds of them. They are built in series.

Somehow... Emperor Gates returned. ( B- Episode )

Guys, I don't think you understand the realities of end of season TV shows. You can't end season 1 on 'Duet', because it's too downbeat, too small scale in its implications and also doesn't prime an audience for a season 2. Same reason you can't end TOS season 1 with 'City On The Edge Of Forever'. 'In The Hands Of The Prophets' established wider story threads, as does 'The Jem'Hadar' (irrespective of their relative success in doing so). If you end on a small character piece.....the excursion Sisko & Quark take into the Gamma Quadrant.....then what is the show saying to the audience?

I always forget some people prefer TNG to DS9 (or even prefer VOY or TOS). I think Josh and Alex are gonna prefer TNG over the others by this point. Personally DS9 will always remain the best space sci-fi series to grace tv (Expanse season 1-3 come close).

Behr also wrote Yesterday's Enterprise and his beard wasn't blue during the DS9 years

I'm starting to think you're just not gonna like DS9. TNG has so many mediocre episodes throughout it's run that got A/B. Yet DS9 does great season climax and you're like "meh". Each to their own.

Of note about the real life USS Enterprise: In the US Navy there have been 8 ships named Enterprise, going all the way back to the 1700s. The most famous of which was the Yorktown Class aircraft carrier that distinguished itself and was made famous for its service during WW2 (20 Battle Stars! She was a beast!)...in fact Roddenberry named Kirk's Enterprise after that ship. Then came the Nimitz Class USS Enterprise, the first nuclear powered carrier. Only recently decommissioned. Under construction right now is the new Ford Class aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, which will launch in a couple of years. In the US Navy, and in Starfleet, there is always an Enterprise...

More and more I think Alex is right. They do mess up the little things in this one. Too much over explaining, and LOL at showing "The Peaceful Station" and "Enterprise dupe." While over all I do like the episode, I don't think it's one of the greats and I understand why it can come off flat. 1) The two disjointed plots don't gel, 2) Our characters aren't really the ones in danger, its the mostly unseen ones on the Odyssey. I can't get it out of my head that this is a fake Enterprise on rewatch. I think many Trek fans reacted the way Josh did back when it first aired. That's why the ratings dropped off so much for season 3. Also, you make a great point of how using the stock footage from the Pilot/Birthright takes the viewer out of the show because we already KNOW that's really the Enterprise and not the Odyssey

What's to understand the glaxy class is the best Trek Has so if you want to make the new baddie really bad have them destroy starfleet's best

This episode is difficult for me to judge cause I watched Season 2 after Season 3 and 4 so I only ever knew this episode in the context of what comes after. As such, I have positive feelings towards it, but first time reactions like this let me shift my perspective which is nice now that I’m on my 5th watch through of the show.

I completely, absolutely, irrefutably disagree that 'The Neutral Zone' was 'good', 'adequate', 'acceptable', or anything besides a rushed script under difficult production circumstances. It is the single worst formal season finale I can think of in ST. I don't count 'Shades Of Grey' as a finale, because I refuse to acknowledge it exists.

Did anyone organise a betting pool related to at what time Josh & Alex would ask: "Is this what they're doing for a season finale?"

This was not the episode for squealing, whining, bug ointment smearing, TNG-style-Ferengi goofball antics. Quark should not have been in this episode. Nog...OK, but only if he's on his best behavior and not LITERALLY SQUEALING like a pig. Very cool, bringing in the Federation's heaviest capital ship in the the USS Odyssey, and then blowing it up to legitimize the threat of the Dominion. But the silly, cringy, ridiculously facepalm and annoying Ferengi antics are entirely disjointed in what should have been a heavy episode with a serious tone. The insistence on the part of many TV and film writers to include the accursed notion of "comic relief" where it is absolutely not needed is always infuriating. Should have been an A. But yeah...low C, on account of latex ears.

The irony of Alex talking about a hivemind... "We don't like Balance Of Terror" "We watched it again, and now we both coincidentally like it!" Im sorry, this had to be one of the worst discussions ever when it comes to analysis and even taste. "I want an episode where hijinks ensue with camping, and maybe a badguy shows up and just as Quark is bending down to get lotion Sisko shoots the badguy who pops up" . This isn't an example of good writing, it is an example of bad sitcom writing and if anyone ever shoots such a scene it will probably star the late Don Knotts or Lou Costello courtesy of AI.

The Galaxy-class starship (of which there were at least 6-12 built n Star Trek canon) is supposedly the finest/strongest (at this moment of time) type of ship in the fleet. They are the "flagships of the fleet. They used it in this episode to represent that even the "best" ship in the fleet can be destroyed by the Jem'Hadar... not because they had no budget to use another ship.

"My ship's falling apart, and they have weapons that penetrate straight through our shield. 5 more minutes."

I agree with almost all of what you were going with because of your lack of full perspective but the criticism of Odyssey being the same as Enterprise is weird IMO. We have seen plenty of ships that are the same classes as other ships both in TOS and TNG. The models used are the same. There is no need for people to get bent out of shape about stuff like calling a ship the wrong name or anything because you are on a first watch but this thing is a precedent that has existed for 30 years in the franchise by the point you are seeing it. The point was that Starfleet sent their best ship class and they got ruined.

I know its heresy but while best of both worlds is good…..its not a fave so for me this is just a hair better almost but comparing the two is illogical

Whoever said this is the Best of Both Worlds for DS9, chill.

Ok, gonna have to call out a lot of commenters here who are saying the Odyssey didn't put up a fight. It put up a hell of a fight. No shields, an it spend several minutes in combat getting absolutely battered. It's mission was a success and it was turning to retreat, having won the day. Then, and only then, did the Odyssey get destroyed, not by weapons fire, but due to a high speed impact of another starship hitting directly on it's secondary hull, right in the engineering spaces. She fought hard and she fought well, and if not for that suicide run would have made it home for repairs. The Odyssey was NOT there just because it shows that the Enterprise crew couldn't have done better. They literally could not because Odyssey succeeded in her mission. The Odyssey was there to show the Dominion don't care that you've won or are retreating, that they don't care about their own lives. As for it being a cheap copy... As someone who has spent time on real life warships, they all look the same from the outside. Nothing, other than hull numbers indicates one ship from another. I doubt anyone here could tell USS Nimitz from USS Eisenhower for example. In TNG, we saw USS Yamato, another Galaxy class, as well as many Excelsior class ships that were near identical to USS Excelsior, and several Ambassador class ships near identical to the USS Enterprise C. The Enterprise was one of 7 in the initial run. Now there are only 5 of those first run Galaxy class ships left.

Please don't knock Ira Behr because of "Captain's Holiday". That was an anomaly.

Forget what everyone else has said because they fall just short of making the correct point. The decision was made to use a Galaxy-class ship because at the time it represented Starfleet's best and biggest. There was no other class of ship that could match the power and presence of the Galaxy. And the point was to show the power of the Jem'Hadar, that they could so easily bring down our most powerful ships. It wasn't because they couldn't get the Enterprise or because she was busy that day or demanded too much money. It was to showcase Starfleet being brought to its knees by a tiny scout ship

For me this is an awkwardly disjointed episode that mixes cutesy sitcom stuff and space opera exposition in a way that doesn't totally gel. Knowing some of the great stuff it eventually leads to in future episodes does improve it for me on rewatch, but not to the extent that it does for seemingly most other viewers. That said there is some really good character bits throughout the episode, not just in the beginning, especially with what it does with Quark/Sisko and how Quark's skills tie into the final scene, making it a solid B for me. So I think I'm more or less on the same page as Josh on this one.

This episode is nescessary.....but you'll figure it out soon enough......Eris words are true. You have no idea what's begun here today :)

You guys are probably going to get some flack for not loving this episode. Looking at this episode outside of the context of the entire show, it does just kind of seem like a set up episode, which it is to be fair. Behind the scenes, there was a bit of "changing of the guard" going on for the show runners, and they had to do some setup. Josh and Alex, I would love to hear your thoughts retroactively on this episode after the first episodes of the next season.

IDK, even without the context of what comes next, I find this to be quite a good episode. Nowhere near the best of even the first 2 seasons when there have been masterpieces like Duet, but the escalation from small character moments to an action-packed finale, along with the true introduction of the shadowy threat they've been teasing all season long, made for a very exciting hour of television.

This reaction is why I'm sticking around throughout the entire franchise, you guys are fucking hilarious

This is more like it should episode 1 of season 3.

This episode is fine… Not even close to the show’s “Best of Both World’s.”

It's a damn shame... Captain Keogh was just two days away from retirement!

I have to be honest. I was very excited about this episode reaction. As I was watching it with you guys again, I definitely cooled on my opinion of it. Despite "Knowing where everything goes", something about this episode felt awkwardly edited/paced. I don't mind "the plot" showing up, but it felt like the episode was very perfunctory, if that makes sense. Like we had to awkwardly get to our marks before the scene ended. Still a lot of good stuff in it. I like the Jem'Hadar and the first third or so is pretty perfect. RIP the comment section of this one lol. I hope all the "oh it's crazy where this series go" comments don't get on your nerves too much

the was 4 galaxy class ships commissioned at the start uss enterprise uss odyssey uss yamato and uss galaxy

I kinda like Josh's idea for a Trek show about surveying planets. They could be out there on one of those small Federation science ships. Good excuse to double down on making it about the characters and their interactions instead of needing to 'go big' as often (or at all). Trek really has a lot of directions to go in, it's just a matter of execution.

Regarding the Odyssey being a galaxy class ship, I was fine with it because it's already established that Starfleet has multiple ships of that class (recall the USS Yamato on TNG in season... 2?) and as far as I know this is their biggest, best ship model, so it makes sense to send some 'teeth' to help with finding Sisko.

I kinda want to keep a glossary of mispronounced terms/names (or just made up substitutes) as TA continues along its Trek journey. Off the top of my head, we have the Gem'D'Harr, we have Dorf, we have Roundabouts, and we all love special guest start Mark Uh-LAY-moe. I feel like I'm forgetting others.

I have to say I was initially worried watching their tepid response to this one, but I ultimately agree with the assessment that people may be viewing this one more from the perspective of what it means for the show vs the actual episode itself. Personally I don’t think this one is all that great either, and it’s never ever mentioned even in the top 25 best of this series, at least from any lists or discussions I’ve seen. I think it’s being a bit overrated here and I have nothing but faith that the future of the show is going to put all of Alex and Josh’s fears of the characters being put on the back burner in favor of grand plotting to rest.

Truth be told, I think I probably agreed more with Josh and Alex when this episode premiered than I remember, and I suspect some others out there did too. There's a real difference in how I perceived DS9 immediately after seven seasons of TNG (where the guys are now) and how I see it after watching every episode 3-4 times over. I wonder how much their feelings about a given episode will change on a second trip thru the whole series.

Everyone in the comments needs to chill and remember that the only reason why we rate this episode so highly is because we already know what this is the beginning of. We're viewing this episode as representing the rest of the show as a whole already when it really doesn't deserve that. We're just excited to finally get going. If you're watching this for the first time though, the Dominion really doesn't seem all that interesting. It's literally just the introduction of the new big bad. They have no reason to care about the new big bad yet. Except for the ending, this episode really is kind of a C/B on its own. And ultimately, it's even forgettable. It's just funny that the beginning is what they liked most, when that's usually the part most fans forget, and we're all excited about the end. But we should come to expect that from TA by now. They've said several times that that's the kind of stuff they like.

I definitely get the complaints. The real meat of the episode character-wise is Quark earning some respect from Sisko, but that has very little to do with the introduction of the Dominion. It just kind of gives flavor to the episode. Probably the best example to this point of pairing a plot with really epic scope with an intimate character study is BOBW, with the scale of the Borg invasion complemented perfectly with Riker’s inner turmoil about leaving the Enterprise and/or taking command of his own ship. This episode doesn’t have anything that elegant, and I can understand how that might fall flat for some.

Oh, its so hard not to comment on what's coming....

It would appear that Target Audience is in fact NOT the target audience of Star Trek, especially since DS9. I Love this episode! Solid B+, adding a + for the redshirt ship.

“Huh, I wonder why there are so many comments on this video already.” Reads comments. “Ohhhh.” I would just say, waayyy more important that Josh and Alex are willing to piss off their audience with a reaction because that’s how they genuinely feel about an episode, even though they don’t enjoy doing it, and I’m sure it must be uncomfortable. That’s called having integrity.

Quark is great in this episode. I also like how Sisko is smart enough to sit back and let Quark annoy the l guard. Great little moment that shows Sisko actually respects Quark in a way.

TA: "We don't like Sci-Fi plots!" I: "Okay, an interesting different perspective." TA: "We don't like any plots." I: "Why am I paying for this?"

I agree with you guys, this episode always pissed me off the way they made the galaxy class go down so easily, it was clearly the show runners throwing a dig at the other show, and it breaks the immersion. The galaxy class should’ve been swarmed by at least three ships, and odyssey should have been shown at least to have destroyed two out of the three enemy ships before going down like in yesterday’s enterprise with the Klingons .

I mean, not for nothing but the Enterprise D is a Galaxy Class starship, and the other Galaxy Class starships in the fleet look like the Enterprise D. There are other ship configurations of course but the main-line fleet in this period are Galaxy Class. Just as in TOS the Enterprise is a Constitution Class ship, as were the other 12 exploration/defense ships in the fleet (ex. the Defiant in The Tholian Web and the Constellation in The Doomsday Machine). Enterprise wasn't always the flagship, either. During the TOS era, the flagship was Yorktown (which is also what the Enterprise was originally named in Roddenberry's early drafts).

Thinking ahead of what these two are about to watch... Remembering it all almost gives me PTSD. Eris was spot on: "You have no idea what's begun here."

I was randomly wondering if you guys were sent any Trek Novels by fans. I read a lot growing up in the 90’s they’re fun, not canon they read like fanfic really. But they can be fun reads! I’d recommend Imzadi, crossover, Vendetta, Federation, or dark Mirror and I also like the Shatnerverse novels, but I wouldn’t read any of them until after you’ve seen Generations.

On why Trek by and large forgoes character work that isn't tied to a clear science fiction story is quite simple. They've been told by the studio to not do those types of stories. For quite a number of years (read decades) TV Trek's bread and butter financially wasn't original airing revenue or (the first rerun done in season), but daily syndication. This directive dates back to TNG's Family, the first character piece not tied directly to a sci-fi plot. That episode in its first rerun, and its use in daily syndication did terrible ratings. The studio pays a lot of attention on to that sort of thing. You would think with as popular as TNG was during the bulk of its run, it would allow them more creative control, it actually made the studio not want to rock the boat. And made them more hesitant to take creative chances. On DS9 at this point there has already been delivered two such studio mandated directives.

Just wanna add that there actually was one other Galaxy class ship shown in TNG, the Yamato in the season 2 episode Contagion. Funnily enough she was also blown up in the episode.

Re: suggestions for your TNG cool-down period -- you guys can now finally watch "CHAOS ON THE BRIDGE," a documentary narrated by William Shatner about the first two disastrous seasons of TNG behind-the-scenes. It's incredible, and you guys will love it.

FYI, I'm currently writing - in Word - an excruciatingly long, boring and detailed white-paper on ship classes. Has anyone here ranted about Starfleet starship classes yet? I'm too lazy to scroll, but my guess is "no" and I'll be the first.

Alex and Josh What a lot of people don't understand (and this applied to me for about 20 years as well), is that the actual unique costs (versus fixed costs that apply to every episode) of an episode of Trek at this time is typically between 175,000 to 300,000 dollars (this higher end was typical season opener, big sweeps episodes). Season Finales might have that budget, but they also might not if the show had been running over budget through the season. To go over pattern is a big no no. It must balance out by the end of the season, unless the studio approves the overage. The typical cost of a better quality ship is between 20,000 to 75,000 a model . That cost is a huge hit on a shows budget and why so many episodes just use ships that in canon would be close to a 100 years old. Ships that are rented, or loaned, or scraps and household items that are exceedingly poor quality models never intended to be seen clearly. This episode already features a new quality ship build, and is pretty fx heavy (for Trek up to this point). Its doubtful they could have afforded to build a new quality model for this episode.

The Jem'Hadar have finally arrived. Time to kick into overgear, crank it up a notch, get the DS9 afterburners glowing. And you know so on and so forth!

You guys talking about how the Odyssey was a cheap copy of the Enterprise that exists for the purpose of killing it off, it reminds me of Kirk's brother's death

The Jem'Hadar walking through the security field was so badass. Definitely my favorite moment of the episode. But I think you guys are right for the most part, this episode really feels like all setup when examined on its own. I'm betting a lot of patrons perceive your review as a dangerously negative reaction to what it's setting up. But that doesn't matter because you haven't seen it. I won't delve into specifics, but it seems like your complaints are about how it was done (the plot interrupting a fun episode, exposition, boring direction, lack of character moments). And like you said, it's not that grander scale episodes turn you off, they only do when they rely on that scale to carry the episode.

I paid $5 for this one because it's such a milestone episode for myself and DS9 fans. That you guys often have a complete 180 reaction to the fan favorites and make fun of Ira Steven Behr is what reassures me that your reactions are real. Unfortunately, there are many suspect blind reactions out there to older properties. Your takes are always unexpected, genuine and not pandering or aligned to what the fans have held dearly for 30 years. As far as Ira Steven Behr - many fans consider him one of the greatest of all Star Trek writers/producers but it will have to wait until the TNG head honchos move to Voyager and forget about DS9 so that can do what he wants.

In Peak Performance, they were initially going to use a Constitution class (Enterprise from TMP) as Picard's old ship as the other Federation ship, but decided that people would see it and confuse it with the Enterprise. Seeing you get confused at first with the Odyssey means they were probably right in Peak Performance.

God this comment section is embarrassing. The ship classes and suicide explosion have been explained 50 times in these comments. You don't need to post another 3-4 paragraphs about it. And if one of them doesn't like the episode, that's what it is. If you want to watch people gloss every episode there are brainless content creators that legitimately do that. It's their first time watching and for those of us who have watched TNG and DS9 multiple times, we all know we picked up more and more each time. And we didn't have a camera in our face and a bunch of people judging our opinions online. Calm the f down.

rappin jake sisko Headin' through the wormhole to survey like Richard Dawson(1) For a routine mission, shoulda exercised some caution- Dad's readings of life signs turn out to be specious When the camp is broken up by some chick's telekinesis The three of them are captured by the Jem'hadar Who know all about 'em, they've been watching from afar. Back on the station, they rally 'round the Odyssey But Captain Keogh's arrogant, got no time for modesty The ships show up and carry out the rescue They beat a retreat when an enemy gets through Their defenses for a kamikaze run Forget the Captain 'cause he's done Quark confronts my pop, tells him the captive's shackle was a fake And then that's where we stop, you'll have to wait 'til Fall to hear from Jake.

Random thought, what if the Odyssey had been commanded by say Captain Jellico a familiar face from TNG? Also with Ensign Gates....er's twin sister also Ensign Gates! Obviously they weren't going to kill of the Enterprise crew but might have even given more stakes not that the 1000+ crew ship wasn't enough.

Picard's Enterprise-D is a Galaxy-class vessel. Starfleet possesses several ships of this class. While the Enterprise-D is the flagship of Starfleet, it is not unique. Other Galaxy-class ships were also featured in TNG (2x11 Contagion). The reason for choosing a Galaxy class was its impact on fans. It would mean that even the Enterprise would have stood no chance, especially considering the sheer number of lives on board a Galaxy-class ship—up to 1,000 crew members. This had a powerful effect at the time. It meant that Starfleet had no ship capable of taking on the Jem'Hadar vessels. It was intended to present a credible threat to fans. Unfortunately, and this is not a criticism, it's fun to watch you, but sometimes you two don't see the franchise as a whole, but only from a personal point of view: did this episode entertain me or not?

I love watching your guys' reactions to each episode because sometimes they'll be identical to mine and other times they'll be so polar opposite. You always say you like the character moments the most and the episodes that knock that out of the park are many of your favourites. It's ironic to me because as a kid I always hated those episodes and skipped them. Sometimes fast forwarding through the small ones in episodes that I liked (aka- had a plot ;) ). I've always loved the plot more than the characters. The older I've gotten the more I've come to appreciate the characters and the character moments. But I always like the zoomed out scope of a show with all the lore and the techno-babble and the broader implications, etc. I also love many of the character moments too. This is why I hated DS9 because I couldn't understand why a science fiction show wasn't dealing with science fiction most of the time. It bored me to tears. I get it now as an adult, but I still have that child in me that loves Star Trek first and foremost for the science fiction. And I know science fiction in the past has always been a vehicle to deal with character drama and dress up modern day issues in terms everyone can understand. And I love Star Trek for doing that. It's always done that. But I love me my Cause and Effect, The Next Phase, Timescape, Time Squared, etc first and foremost. Episodes with little or no character moments. I do love the plot. Appreciate you guys. I'll always be here to watch all the way through! (well, most of the way through. I don't have much investment in most of the content after Enterprise ends)

According to the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion, pp. 154-155, the writers intentionally made the Odyssey a Galaxy-class ship to emphasize that the Dominion was a much more threatening force than anything the Enterprise-D had encountered, with Robert Hewitt Wolfe noting even Jean-Luc Picard wouldn't have stood a chance in the same situation.

I just clicked on something. When they got back to the station, imagine having to break the news to all the non-essential crew/civilians that were left at the station before the Odyssey left. Like, what, 300-400 people finding out that they lost their ship and all the people they knew?! Friends, family, crewmates. I've watched this episode dozens and dozens of times, I never gave a second thought to the Odyssey's surviving crew once the DS9 crew comes back to the station. I know... rando observation. Anyway, looking forward to season 3! :-)

I always thought they chose to have the Odysee to be a Galaxy Class ship was only because TNG production was done and they had plenty of spare models left and were allowed to blow up one. As far as I remember from some making off, the Enterprise got an larger model for the movie because of the higher resolution (and the higher budged)

With TNG TV finished, I'm here just to see Alex get triggered by something. The next few years of Star Trek will be fertile ground.

I appreciate the angle: most of the fans know where the Dominion plot goes, but Alex and Josh don't. I can really respect that perspective, and I'm glad you judge it as you experience it. I must admit that I've never really LIKED liked this episode. While Quark delivers some good lines, his attempt to exalt the Ferengi over humanity is pretty hammy and forced. All the stuff done to sell the Jem'Hadar as INTIMIDATING feels pretty forced and cheap. Two personal take-aways that make me give the episode a thumbs-up, for the most part. 1) It's not a dragged-out two parter. 2) I indeed do know about the Dominion situation as a whole, and for that sake I tend to tolerate this episode. Does that mean the Dominion are actually "pretty cool?" You'll have to keep watching to find out~

List of other stuff Alex doesn’t like because other people like them: 1. Ww2 ends 2. Cancer remissions 4. Pandemic ends 4. Children rescued from sexual trafficking

Alex has got to stop getting annoyed every time an episode has a plot.

Great reaction, guys. And yes, the idea of using a Galaxy Class ship was to show the power of the new big bad, like everyone has said so far. But it wasn't just about the enemy's technology being more powerful. It was about their attitude to battle being completely different and vicious. They straight up kamikazed and destroyed a Galaxy Class starship as it was trying to escape. Sisko said it best, they're showing us how far they're willing to go. This is unlike any adversary the Federation has met before. It's not just being outclassed and outgunned, but also being shown absolutely no mercy. Even the Borg wouldn't do this because the Borg are interested in assimilation of cultures and technology. The Dominion just straight kills you. AND they're competently organized. That's a bit more frightening. I say this as somebody who never liked DS9's approach to almost anything in the franchise. But I get what they are trying to do and it's effective. I just don't care for it. And no, this is not anywhere close to the realm of the universe of the reality of Best of Both Worlds. If anything I'd liken it to Q Who, but it doesn't even hold a candle to that. In terms of introducing a villain, sure. But it did not have the impact and the entertainment value of Q Who.

At first, I thought them using the Galaxy class here was unnecessary. They could have used any ship. BUT, if they had done that, every fan would have gone "well, if the Enterprise had been there..." and that's exactly what the writers didn't want.

HOLY SHIT!!! SO IT WASN’T JUST ME!! THANK YOU, ALEX!! When this episode first aired, I thought it was pretty meh. I did NOT like the destruction of a Galaxy-Class Starship to prove what a new, big baddie the Jem’hadar were. I thought it was nothing but a cheap stunt. I also felt it was very disrespectful to TNG. After thinking about it for years, I believe a big part was due to the loss of TNG, my favorite series ever. I was still in mourning. But this episode made me feel like I had come from a funeral where somebody knocked the body out of the casket. It didn’t mean I wasn’t looking forward to the possibilities of where this setup might lead…but this particular episode never did it for me. 🖖

I strongly recommend you do not allow comments on this episode on Youtube. Or if turning them off might be detrimental to the channel, rather do not look at the comment section, really ignore them. Not because they'll be upset with your reaction (that's a given) but because of spoilers. You've set yourself to be spoiled heavily. We here are all really invested so that you don't get spoiled. A good part of youtube audience also doesn't want that to happen. But a significant part of them do not care if you do. And those SOBs will not be able to resist spurting out comments, or answers that would reveal heavy spoilers. And throughout this reaction you gave comments, questions, that they will not be able to resist answering.

For TNG retrospective showing character arc growth clips

I vote for a top 20 worst episodes of tng video. But you have to include the best scene of each of those episodes.

I've been here so long I think I've seen every big controversy come and go. Looking forward to seeing the fallout on this one! 😂 Personally, I like the episode and was a little disappointed at how underwhelmed you were. Then again, as you said, I'm coming at it from the perspective of having seen the whole show. Hoping you'll enjoy where all this set up leads!

Jem Dahar masters

Funny you mentioned the Odyssey bridge. At the time this was being filmed, they had just wrapped on All Good Things, and they were filming Generations, and EVERY bridge set they had was being used in one form or another for the movie. DS9 had to cobble together pieces from the Saratoga (DS9 pilot), various freighters and the Prometheus (that boring episode with Gideon Sayatek and his phantom wife) to make the Odyssey. They added a curved railing to simulate the arch where Worf normally stood. That's why you only see it from one angle the whole time.

Gentlemen- I see your point about "if you wanted to blow up the Enterprise, then have some balls and blow up the Enterprise". I agree that all the "tell and not show" dialogue at the end sucked. It reminded me of the 1970s Charlies Angels TV crime show where every episode was "the three Angels go undercover at a {strip club, beach resort, beauty contest, fill in the blank) to investigate a murder", do nothing but flash skin for 46 minutes and then get a "Scooby-Do" confession before the end credits. What they DON'T realize is the context of this episode when it aired and when it was written: This aired about a year after terrorists tried to blow up the WTC the first time in Feb 1993, a few weeks after the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants escalated into many bombings, and also right after Israel and Palestinians started warring after an attack at Hebron where Muslim worshippers were gunned down in MID-Prayer and then Israeli civilians were targeted in mid-day for revenge. (It was also weeks before a Japanese death cult released Sarin gas in the Tokyo subways injuring hundreds- but that was in the future) So the world was particularly on edge about radical suicide bound attackers when this episode aired- it basically was saying "if you think that the Bajoran freedom fighters and Macquis are terrorists lets give you some good old 1990s Earth-style ones which made DS9 nice and dark compared to TNG and that just DID NOT age well to today, since a 30 year old today wasn't even born when this aired... It was too "on the nose" to age well making it a low B or high C instead of an A.

This is kinda stupid. Like the Borg weren’t OP in their first episode? Or every episode they’ve been in! At least when not perverted by Lore.. as far as a season finale goes way better than shades of gray and the neutral zone for that matter. The 20th century humans wore on me.

A simple cue from the writers, in their choice of which starship "type" to use: Guess what? We're not TNG, and to prove it, we're going to blow up the symbol of that show. That's it. That's the whole episode. It was, in every other way, a mediocre episode where very little happens. Enjoyable, but mediocre. What comes after it doesn't matter AT ALL. Live in the moment, for heavens sake. Is that not the point? To experience this show in parallel with TA? To enjoy it (and not enjoy it) along with them and to stop second-guessing and whispering from the side-lines? I'll tell you this for nothing, I enjoyed the episode a damn sight more than the comments section.

I think Quark defending the Ferengi to Sisko were great scenes. I wish Alex and Josh had a little more interest in that. I especially love that, well, Quark is kind of right. The tolerant, diversity-loving, respect all cultures people sure DO look down on Ferengi, right? And I think that old comment about them eating people can just be considered misinformation about aliens that the Feds never interacted with much. They made it seem like they barely knew each other existed back when Picard ran into them with the Stargazer back in the day.

I think people are overdoing it with the idea that ship is a stand-in for the Enterprise. Maybe it kind of is, but the idea also is that TNG constantly made sure we knew the Galaxy class ships were the greatest, most powerful ships in Starfleet. So destroying one was showing how big a threat the bad guys are. We did see another Galaxy class in TNG Season 2 when the computer virus blew it up. They all look the same. Also, I think us fans have to let it slide that our intrepid reactors aren't into technical things and stuff like what class a starship is. But they may have to bear with some of us more techie people feeling a little annoyance when they ignore that stuff. :)

idk i dont think 1 episode they thought was just alright will be the end of their ds9 enjoyment

In 2014 when I first saw DS9 on DVD, first, it began in Emissary the pilot episode, the first few seasons Jake and Keiko made it 5 times more likely I would like it. I am also more for the characters. Having seen all other Prime Trek that existed at that point, I was ready for DS9. My beloved Voyager could always be seen on another DVD the same with TNG, TOS was there too. I will not say this episode was a huge impact, probably because I immediately started season 3. But I am sure I had a snack, or it was midnight….

I could never get passed Cirroc's acting. He's good in small understated doses imo.

There is a reason they used The Odyssey...another Galaxy-Class ship. The idea was to show just how powerful the Dominion is. If it WAS The Enterprise, it would have been destroyed. (But they of course couldn't destroy our TNG team. lol) Basically, it's supposed to be a "oh FUCK! These guys are a power like we have never seen before! They mean business. " You guys realized it. :) Edit: LMAO! Okay, after hearing the Patron Takes, I guess I am one of those people pointing out the obvious. I could have just deleted this, but I am open to making myself look like another one of those fans. :P

Josh and Alex's point about "who gives a fuck about these guys?" in regards to the Odyssey being destroyed instead of the writers either blowing up a different big Federation ship, or a Cardassian ship, or even the Enterprise, is fair. They're coming at it from a dramatic/story-telling perspective. The comments in the video mentioning it and in this discussion are coming at it from a lore/world-building perspective with concern for ship power levels. I agree that the suicide run kind of undercut the point of showing the Jem'Hadar ship is strong, but it DID show that they will do anything. It's scary when your enemy will do anything to stop you, even kill themselves. Which was Sisko's point. And maybe he didn't have say it out loud but TV audiences really do need things spelled out lol

Sadly I can’t make a comment without possibly setting expectations or vaguely predicting something just keep watching, I do think with how excited you were about Nog maybe a B was deserved. Ending on the scene was never a big thing in the past some liked it some never cared

It doesn't makes sense to compare this to Best of Both World's. Q Who is a much better comparision in terms of introducing a new big bad; however, Q Who had better execution.

FYI - Ira Steven Behr also wrote on Yesterday's Enterprise, The Nagus, The Homecoming, Rules of Acquisition, The Maquis Part II, and The Collaborator... These were all pretty good; I think you guys should give the guy a break. I have a feeling he had more to do with the funny bits of Captain's Holiday than the "plot" stuff, (producers tend to meddle), and a lot of the nice character scenes in these episodes he had a hand in writing.

Just going to point this out. Because it's not science shit. If you buy a Honda of a certain model, you know that the model in question is likely one of thousands. They might have different tires or come in different colors, but you know that your Honda Accord is not the only one on the road. Constitution Class ships in TOS all looked basically the same, and we saw many of them. (The Constellation, The fleet of ships in the M5- war games, etc...) The Enterprise D is a Galaxy Class Starship, She's not a unique ship. Anymore than the dozens of Excelsior class, or Miranda(Reliant) variants we saw throughout TNG. Starships are built in batches. Just like cars, or real life navy ships. For a more recent example of ships being identical - The Pegasus was an Oberth Class starship (originally seen as the Grissom in Star Trek 3.). The Oberth class shooting model was used many times throughout TNG, including in the second episode "The Naked Now." The reason I draw this out is because, this is not "science shit." This isn't Star Trek dorks being critical of you for not getting in-universe jargon. This is how production of any kind of vehicle, whether its cars, trucks, aircraft, navy ships or space craft works. "Class" in this case is like "breed" of dog. There isn't just one German Shepard on the planet. The reason they used the Galaxy Class, and had a dude who if you squint has a vague appearance similar to Picard, is to say "This could have been our TNG people." This is a big moment. The sister to a Hero ship, and all her crew, were just glass jawed by a hereto unseen group. How is this going to play out? I suppose one of the technical-story issues is that because DS9 is in the growing pains of evolving from the episodic format into blending the stories together(As we have seen this season already), it has one foot on either side of the fence, and that can mean that sometimes the episodic stories suffer, and the potential "arc" elements aren't as fully realized because they're still trying to play it safe for their typical Trek audience, and neither side is as fully realized as it could be.

Always absolutely baffling to me how up in arms people get over “you have no idea how important this episode is” when… yes? They haven’t watched the show yet? You don’t need to tell them how important it is. They’ll get there and form their own opinions.

I might be going out on a limb here, but I think by the end of DS9. Alex and Josh will not find the overall series as enjoyable as most the fans in the TA. For me personally, this episode is at least a B+, but I am not as surprised at Josh and Alex's reactions as I would have been a couple of years ago. And this was where I pretty much stopped watching DS9 in its original run with the exception of a few scattered episodes here and there. So it's mostly all new to me from here on out.

see its funny, all the stuff youre talking about with characters moments tells me you should have loved buffy but yu hated it

I would have like to see some setup for the Odyssey. Name drop it along with the Enterprise in the previous episode, and establish its presence in the region and introduce the captain on some other episode near the end of this season. It would help it feel like less of an ass-pull whilst developing the world around DS9.

An identical galaxy class vessel has been destroyed before in the TNG season 2 episode Contagion. In that episode they thought there might be a design flaw in Galaxy class ships but it was a alien computer virus that took it out. All that said this is a good episode that lays more framework and I believe you guys will come to appreciate it more with time. Can't wait for January.

This couldn't be a simple, fun episode. It's the season finale. They wouldn't do that.

I am usually all for your contrarian takes and they are well argued. This however is a pretty frustrating discussion considering the critiques are based on you just forgetting things you have seen in the past or using some common sense. i.e. ships of the same class look the same. I don't think this is the most amazing episode but it has a great quiet/comedy episode setup and then the tone totally shifts to a more serious setup for things to come and I enjoy when writers do that kind of thing.

I won't be watching the review until I get home, but everyone needs to remember that we are all looking at this episode knowing what comes after it, so we're going to be a bit biased when we talk about it. Yeah, it sucks that it appears from the comments that they may not have enjoyed it as much as I do, but that's the spice of life!! Also, I see there might be some confusion with the Odyssey being a Galaxy Class ship like the Enterprise. Just think of each class of ship as a 747 plane. They all are going to look pretty much exactly alike.

I do totally agree that blowing up another Galaxy-class starship does not have anywhere near the impact that the writers seemed to think it would. Trying to have their cake and eat it too. We did see one other Galaxy-class ship in TNG, the Yamato in "Where Silence Has Lease" - although that was Nagilum's illusion - and in "Contagion", where it gets destroyed, and it did indeed look exactly like the Enterprise.

I'm guessing this is not going to be one of your more popular takes.

Alex is right, Ensign Gates is really the leading Founder of the Dominion. How did he guess?😂😂😂

The point of it being a galaxy class ship is that those are starfleet's top of the line ships, and the jem'hadar took it out with no problem. Even without the suicide run, they were cooked. It's supposed to show that the federation's best ship was no match for a trio of Jem'hadar fighters.

Many of the main players and pieces are now in place. Now you get to look forward to how they move on the board going forward.

I'm amused by how much Alex wants the season finale to just be a silly camping trip with no other plot. This isn't a criticism of you guys; this genuinely tickles me.

Season 4 is the REAL start of the show.

Oh the YouTube comments are gonna be fun with this one 😅 It is hard to comment without spoilers but it’s one of the few times I’m a bit bemused by the discussion especially as most of the reasons why TA disliked it is why most seem to love it. Also first time I’ve ever seen complaints about the Odyssey being a Galaxy Class as it makes so much sense from a plot point of view 🤣

The Galaxy class is the largest vessel the Federation currently possesses. And I believe it was mentioned that three such ships were operating in the area. It showed that the Federation's strong shields/force fields were ineffective against this enemy. In that respect, it was okay. But I really don't think it's a good episode. If the spy had been unmasked in a later episode, I think it would have helped somewhat. I also think it would have worked better if the Dominion information had been spread over two episodes.

About the re-use of the ship remember the Enterprise D is in a class of ships (Galaxy Class) as in they have several of the exact same looking. It's one of the federation's most recent and versatile ships which can be used for exploration and also packs a punch if needed to be used in battle. I think in the TOS almost all the federation ships we ever saw were the same Constitution class at least we do get much more variations in ships from TNG onwards Edit - i see ya guys addressed that towards the end

Question: Would this have been better as a 2 parter, with an expanded camping hijinks section leading up to the Jem'Hadar kidnapping Sisko et al as a part one cliffhanger, followed by a more fleshed out escape/battle/Figuring out that Eris (sp?) was a plant?

C? Forreal? I've noticed that you guys often ask for the shows to "Show, don't tell." I feel like this was the most effective showing and not so much telling (and most of what we're told comes from unreliable OP, Eris). And while Josh said he liked it, Alex's part of the discussion straight up baffled me. On the bright side, at least you guys will get plenty of YouTube engagement out of this, I can guarantee that.

I thinkl encounter at farpoint was a misunderstanding./ Like "they had the last people they did busin4ss with for lunch" confusing a metaphor for somethjing literal

Oh boy, the comments are gonna be good!

Years of being in the Trek fandom I've never heard a single person dislike the Odyssey being blown up and how it symbolised the Enterprise but hey that's why I keep subscribed to you guys and I itch to hear your opinions a day early, you guys bring something new

For Star Trek hawks like myself, this is where the show REALLY begins. When we watched this in our college dorms back in the day, the symbolism of a Galaxy-class starship being kamikazi-ed at the end of the episode wasn't lost on us. This show was now the show that told us what was going on in the Federation and the Alpha Quadrant. It was, in a very real sense, the new home of the franchise.

Skeletor!! Ive always liked the episode tho not perfect I like that it takes a seemingly lowkey story before it changes direction part way. It combines big stakes drama with some nice character stuff.

Re-watching this now, it is a blunt-force way to introduce the new bad guys. It hit harder in the '90s in the context of everything else. TNG had been the first new live-action Star Trek series in almost 20 years, and now they were already trying to do that again, so what was the point going to be? Destroying the Odyssey a.k.a. the Enterprise stand-in was the meta way to say, "We're taking what you thought you'd learned about 1990s Star Trek and moving it in a totally different direction." Some people weren't okay with that, and some people still aren't, honestly. DS9 ended up being my favorite series, but I can see why some people prefer the Shakespeare plays and chamber-music concerts on the Enterprise-D. There isn't much of that on DS9, but they do use the darker tone to introduce some really gritty allegories -- including some that hit harder today than they did when they originally aired. They anticipated some real-world problems we were going to have. All this is to say that, yeah, this episode might not feel like much when you first come to it, but after two seasons of DS9 being basically a TNG knockoff, this is where it starts to become its own thing. You might like that thing or not, but from here on it becomes clear why the showrunners felt they needed a new series.

With this reaction and a month pause I really hope you will not see that many deregistrations. But I promise you there will be some. You can dislike what you want but stop shitting on what people love and you have no clue (yet) why.

I still hold the belief that the captain of the Odyssey was SUPPOSED to be Jellico at one point.

With this - not always understandable - clueless rant from Alex I highly recommend not to read the YT comments. You will be spoiled to death.

Why would two Galaxy class ships look any different? Its just the same two models of the ship why would it not be the same exact model as the Enterprise? Works perfectly for the story. You think Picard added stickers to the hull of the Enterprise to customise it?

Did someone say "ideas"? At the end of each series, of course you're doing a top episodes for that series... but it's a ton of fun to mix em up... Between TOS AND TNG, do a top 25 of those together. Then when DS9 ends, a top 50, adding it to the mix. Then Voyager, top 75. Add ENTERPRISE when it ends, for a top 100 episodes. When ENTERPRISE ended, fans did a top 100 on TREKWEB. I'm sure I still have my list saved somewhere on my backup hard drive that held 80 megabytes. Lol

I like the structure of this episode. It starts small and slow, and ends with the destruction of a galaxy class ship. It would have been great stuff for a movie with 120 minutes runtime, but considering that its only a 90s show, its well executed.

Oh damn had a feeling this would happen lol.

You have no idea what's begun here.

Excited to watch this with you guys, but also apprehensive. If you hate this DS9 might be lost to you. Its not a perfect episode, but its absolutely critical to everything.

So psyched for this one! I get to watch along in two hours. ^_^ I will say right now that this is S-Tier stuff! I have always considered this THE beginning of Deep Space 9. And the show only gets better from here. :)