UNCUT - The Wire (DS9 S2E22) | Star Trek Journey 321

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 4 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1

Am I missing something? The entire episode is blurred out and muted, so aside from the ending commentary this is us awkwardly waiting for out of context commentary

Have they figured out the bajoran uniform convention yet? Medical is orange and purple, engineering green and gray, security light brown, operations light red, command two tone grey.

I love the discussion at the end here. I'm so glad you guys are enjoying this show the way I hoped you would.

My god...the foreshadowing in this episode is INSANE!

He said the line, he said the line! "My dear doctor, they're all true......especially the lies"

Jake is criminally under used good thing for Cirroc he had a contract

Really glad you two liked this one! I think some people are disappointed on first view because they feel they don't learn anything. I'm glad you two realize we did actually learn something, even the lies are telling us something. I think this episode actually gets better on rewatch, and it has slowly crept up my list of my favorite S2 episodes. I love Andrew Robinson in this episode. Garak is such a fascinating character in it. I also love that the writers finally gave Bashir a very strong DOCTOR episode, where we can see him holding his ground no matter what Garak or Odo is saying. I love that he actually goes to confront Enabran Tain at the end. Also, I will maybe forever now call Tain "Esteban" thanks to you.

What a treat to hear from Andy Robinson! I think you should rewatch the Terry Farrell one now that you know more of Dax. Your bridge crew is amazing!

Work kicked my ass this week so I'm pretty late commenting, but here goes. There are so many ways to interpret everything we see in this episode. It's pretty clear from the presence of a classified anti torture device that Garak is no simple tailor. At least, he wasn't always. But we still don't have a clear idea of why he was exiled. It's likely that none of his stories were particularly close to the truth as we would define it. As a couple comments said, it's possible his second story about letting the kids go was true or close to given he was suffering the worst withdrawal at that point, but he was still casting Elim as a separate person. He's obviously communicating SOMETHING about himself to Bashir, but his Obsidian Order training and Cardassian nature won't let him just recount the events as they happened, but he is still telling him something he needs him to know, hence "especially the lies". If Garak is telling you the full truth, it's either because he wants you to act on it without confusion, or it's just not that important. The things Garak wants, needs to talk about the most are also the things he can never reveal openly. The lies he crafts are a way to get it off his chest while keeping the secret. Garak setting himself and "Elim" up as friends and "the sons of Tain" could possibly be seen as referring to the 2 sides of Garak. Perhaps part of Garak is the friendly tailor he presents as, but to survive on Cardassia and in the order, he needed to be someone cold and ruthless. Garak is who he wants to be, Elim is who he had to be. The first story about shooting down the ship is probably a complete fabrication. Misery loves company, and Garak wants Bashir to hate him as much as he hates himself, so he tells him a story he would find horrifying. Saying he killed Elim is probably communicating that at some point his conscience got in the way of his duty and ended his career, "killing" Elim the spy. Lashing out and saying he hates Bashir was to push him away, but also probably because Bashir reminds him of a more idealistic part of himself that got him into his current situation. Were there Bajoran kids that Garak let go because there was no point to it? I suppose it's possible. Obviously there was no separate "Elim" there, and it may not have been the situation he described exactly, but there could have been an event where he showed, not necessarily compassion, but indifference to Bajoran prisoners and let them go because the Cardassians were withdrawing anyway. If he was exiled for that, it likely has less to do with whether or not they were terrorists or had important information, and more to do with Garak not living up to his training and being sufficiently ruthless. Tain may have seen that "weakness" as a betrayal of everything he taught Garak, hence saying that Elim looked at him like he was insane. His training was screaming at him to do his job but he just said "fuck it". The story about trying to frame Elim only for him to do it first probably refers to an internal struggle to either cover up what he did, or own up to it and accept the consequences. But of course, that's my interpretation, which could be way off. At any rate, excellent episode. Certainly among the best of the season.

I don't remember the order of episodes so every week its like a surprise to see what episodes come up, and man they are really bringing out all the bangers this season

Saurian Brandy is the IPA of DS9.

Henceforth, from this day forward, he shall be known as Esteban Tain.

It's so challenging to act with extreme enthusiasm or distress and make it feel believable. Somehow, Andrew Robinson pulls it off. Such a talent!

“Especially the lies” On the last Garack ep, Josh didn’t buy Garack’s “I love Cardassia line.” It was actually a perfect display of who Garack is. It wasn’t exactly his motivation for helping Quark but it was still the truth.

You just can't trust those damn Cardies!

Just a "My Dinner with Garak" episode would be fascinating

Esteban Tane fucking hilarious! If you want to see more Andrew Robinson I recommend Dirty Harry or Hellraiser, he really is the cherry on top at the end of Hellraiser.

You'll get all sorts of truth's about Garak and thats what makes the character so great. This episode an def an A

I love Garak! :-)

Definitely an A for me.

I was a military medic and now a cop. I love the scene with Odo and Julian. I respect them both. They both did their duty and they were both right.

Garek. Never fails to entertain.

Personally I think the last quote was about the best ending imaginable.

I wanted to comment "all true" "even the lies" "especially the lies" so many times.

at the start "the never ending sacrifice" is clearly forshadowing about Tain and Garak relationship, as mentor and successor,and the expected path Garak life that was derailed by what ever he truly did to get exiled

Andrew Robinson's Garak is a candidate for the best-played character in all of Trek.

I wondered for the first time if the wire was why dukat was laughing his way through the attempts to get info out of him.

I don't know this series like I do TNG so I might be way off and reading too much into this, I don't know where his story goes. I feel that when Garak said everything is true, even the lies was interesting. When Garak said he destroyed that ship of 100 or so and Elim died that actually happened and he was saying the better part of him self...his soul if you will was lost. Then he talks about how he let some teenagers go who should been taken in Elim is shocked, the good part of him is shocked back into life and this confuses Garak. Then we says that Elim betrayed him before he could do anything...so before he take any action to protect himself he realised that he wouldn't be able to live with himself being this way anymore and allowed himself to be a an outcast and that's why he hates where he is but at the same time believes that is where he should be, he deserves to suffer for not caring and also caring too late . Probably very wrong...but I love it made me think that way.

Quite off topic this and the previous episode aired in early May 1994 the time when my favorite race car driver Ayrton Senna was sadly killed during a race. Easy to place myself and what I was doing when these episodes aired. Over 30 years where has the time gone. rip

best thing about this episode, is up till this point Garak, seem invincible, smart and always two step ahead, showing he was suffering in silence,on the verge of a break down, make him seem more realistic

If you guys know anything about 1984 at all, Cardassia reminds me a lot of that setting. It's an authoritarian state where "Big Brother" (Obsidian Order) is always watching. And to survive there, one has to be capable of "double think."

I think the word you were thinking of was "geneology." Adam West played the Cardassian that Quark tried to order the device from, so another tie to Batman. You could say that the whole point of Garak telling those stories was just to manipulate Bashir into finding Enabran Tain, who Garak knew was the only one who could save him. The first two stories were to set the stage to Bashir about who Tain was, and the third story was to name drop where he was retired so he could be found. Cardassians always play 4d chess. Speaking of which, since you're starting to find the Cardassians intriguing, I think DS9 benefits a LOT from a second watch after you've finished the entire series. A large part of that is because the Cardassian moments in the first two seasons, and the show as a whole, mean a lot more once you've seen the Cardassians fully fleshed out. A lot of nuance, regarding their politics for instance, that gets lost on a first watch-through becomes obvious on a second watch. But for me, what I find most interesting about them is their psychology. I can watch this show 100 times and still learn new things about them.

Minor Spoiler... It WILL all make sense at the end, and the one thing DS9 was great about is continuity.

Garak is arguably my favourite character in all of Star Trek. He's very complex and the more you learn about him, the more questions it seems to raise. DS9 does a great job of developing recurring characters as well as the main cast. I'm emotionally invested in them more than any other Trek cast and the main reason it's my favourite Trek series. Lovely that Andrew Robinson sent you a video message. I'm very envious and would love to meet him.

The only things we know are that Garek always talks about duty to the Cardassian state. In the cold open to Profit and Loss. In the cold open of this episode. So....not saying this is necessarily right....Garek made a choice that Tain considers a betrayal of himself and/or the Obsidian Order. Garek chose the greater interests of Cardassia. Whether that choice is what we humans would consider a moral choice....who knows.

A great episode featuring two of my favourite Star Trek actors. For me this is a high A.

Also, I don't know if it's explicitly what the show intended or not, but I think it could be: Apparently the red lights they have on in Garak's quarters may be heaters, to help make a Cardassian feel more comfortable since they prefer things pretty toasty.

Esteban Tain lol

I always speculated that Garak may have let on a bit more of the truth than he intended in his breakdown scene. Him being withdrawn from his drugs, spiraling, and thinking he might die. I wouldn't be surprised if some of what he said there was actually true. But I love him trying to push Bashir away even though he desperately wants someone to confide in. He may have been lying, but that, "I need to know someone forgives me", is so real

Btw Saurian brandy has been around since TOS.

Do you guys still consider the series set-up of DS9 to be limiting? Just asking.

Love this episode! While just how much was ultimately revealed about Garak may be up for debate, we're told very nearly everything we need to know about Bashier.

I think what helps keep Garak so intriguing is that they never fully explain anything about him. You get pieces, maybe even a fake piece, of the puzzle from time to time but never the whole thing.

Any time Garak shows up I lean in and pay more attention. Andrew Robinson is a freakin’ genius. And time to let go of the “dull and boring” opening credits schtik. It’s getting old man!!! 🤣😂🤪

Without an S-Tear it cannot be S-Tier.

1:01 I'd say you've only recently started the show. Season 1 (plus the beginning of season 2) was an introduction, even for those unfamiliar with Star Trek. Now the stage is set. The crew has settled in. The Bajorans are out of their transitional phase. The new world and spiritual leadership are firmly in power. With the Maquis, you know the situation regarding the next major power (Cardassian). What lies beyond the wormhole is still somewhat unclear. But exploring the unknown is part of Star Trek. And unlike the Enterprise, DS9 can't simply go where no one has gone before. And their runabouts even adhere to the Warp 5 limit. ;-)

If we believe Tain we learned a lot new informations about Garak: His first name is Elim. He was in the Obsedian Order. The Obsedian Order is a powerful and cruel spy organization. He was the protege of Enabran (not Esteban, Alex! lol) Tain who was the head of the Obsedian Order. He did something that pissed Tain off that he exiled him. This 'something' must have been very personal because Tain didn't simply kill him. What we alread know: Garak loves Cardassia and its culture and would do anything for his people but also suffers from descisions Cardassians leaders make. He does not believe Central Command is very competent and especially hates Gul Dukat. Which is a mutual feeling by Dukat.

Whenever you see Alex, say a word that ends in Y. :)

Wow rewatching this episode they are so Queer coded! The scene with Bashir and Dax in her Quarters it’s like they’re talking about his BF. 🤷‍♂️

I interpret the different stories that Garek spouted as all having some true details, just not fully true. They say the best lies are the ones that are based on true facts.

A is probably fair. Probably a low A /high B for me. Good performance by Andy Robinson but the plot resets a bit too easily for me. I like Garak but he’s no Dukat.

FINALLY. I love this episode and I'm glad you liked it. When it aired a lot of people were disappointed that we didn't find out the truth about Garak but its better this way. The mystery and the development of the character is worth it.

Some folks will recommend that anyone wanting to give DS9 a try should skip the first two seasons but I very much disagree - Season 1 and 2 are very much setting the stage or laying the essential foundations for what's to come. I think you guys are starting to feel that now. Strap in guys, it's a wild ride. Oh and the Cardassians are by far the most fleshed out race in Trek. Often Trek is guilty of making their aliens one-note archetypes - The Klingons are warriors, the Romulans are sneaky etc but the Cardassians have so many different shades and Garak is one of the most intriguing characters in all of sci-fi and Robinson deserves so much praise for what he did with the role.

I enjoy this episode very much.

Superb. That's it.

Is this the first Tal Shiar mention since Troi was turned into a Romulan? Anyone know?

Wanna know how I got these scars?

"It feels like we're knocking on the door. What's behind the door?" "I feel like this show is going to go through a shift where it ramps up..." MAN do I want to say some things. But I'll refrain. You'll get there, and pretty soon! Also of note: BOHICA is a military acronym from WW2. If that's where they got that Cardassian's name, then it's kind of hilariously appropriate. And finally, re: the Cardassians being intriguing, here's Chip Chalmers talking about why they originally introduced them in "The Wounded" (quote from Memory Alpha): "We introduced a new enemy that's finally able to speak on the level of Picard. They're not grunting, they're not giggling, they're not mutes or all-knowing entities. Here are the Cardassians who also graduated first in their class and they're able to carry on highly intelligent conversations with Picard, but they're sinister as hell."

Biggest plot hole of the episode? Garak turning down a physical from Bashir…

Absolute S from me! I think the wire in him by the end wasn't so much that it made him feel blissed out but he needed it by that point just to get to normal

Probably a little off topic but with the shot of Morn at the start of the episode. Has anyone ever pointed out to the guys the nod to Norm from cheers? Dont think I've seen them refer to it on screen but I dont always read all the comments and patron takes

Wow, somehow I’ve never seen this episode, an S for me. Bashir and Garak work so well together, the actors give their best when playing off each other.

We learned Garak's full name in this episode, but also I never hear people talk about how we also learn JULIAN's full name! Julian Subatoi Bashir

Cool theory about Tain’s words at the end! He states he wants Garak to suffer but that could be an excuse for keeping him as a well-positioned sleeper agent. I never thought of that. I took his words at face value but there’s always a new way to interpret Cardassian motives!

On the subject of the TNG creatives moving to DS9 when TNG ends - that's actually one of the most consequential moments in Star Trek history, in my opinion. The way the they split themselves up between DS9 and Voyager ends up having big consequences for the creative directions of both shows, mostly helping DS9, and hurting Voyager.

Garak and Bashir play off each other and absolutely spark in the ways the writers seemed to hope Bashir and Dax would early on. They are always a blast to watch together on screen .

DS9 has the best ensemble of recurring characters. A few, including Garak, you have met. But there are at least 6 more that you haven't met yet that go on to have dozens of appearances that just add wonderfully to the tapestry that is DS9. Andrew Robinson is such a fucking treasure as a performer and he never fails to deliver a captivating performance. Siddig continues to grow as Bashir and continues his journey to becoming a fantastic main character.

Clear S for me, I loved everything about this episode. Can't think of a single thing that I could criticize. But A is a fair rating, if it didn't have "that thing" for you guys.

Garak. That's all I have to say. 57:35 One thing I like about this episode, and it's more of a subtle thing is... Chain of Command. They put an implant in Picard to torture him. So Bashir assumes torture device, and our experience with Cardassians up to now would make all of us go "of course it's a torture device." It's a small thing, but they were aware of what audiences had come to know over the last few years of Star Trek, and they leveraged it.

Your anticipation for DS9 shifting into something amazing will def pay off. Love to see you guys recognizing all the seeds being planted and can't wait to watch you pop off with the series.

Since I have seen a lot of these episodes more than once. I tend to see more of the little things rewatchig it with you guys. Like the long shot of Garak 's quarters i was impressed and wondered was that a totally constructed set? Or was some of it optical effects?

So what I'm learning from this episode and the last two parter is to never trust any story that a Cardassian tells you completely.

The Obsidian order seems to be modelled after the real world Stasi from East Germany - IIRC that quote about no cardassian family being able to sit down to dinner without the Obsidian Order taking notes about what they ate is actually an adaptation of a quote about the Stasi

AW SHIT!!!! Here we gooooooooo!!!!!

It’s never made sense that Jake is considered part of the main cast.

For one split second I thought they were reacting to The Wire series. My eyebrows went up. Foolish pig.

3 times the Garak in S2 and in 4 total appearances he’s had more development than Geordi did in about 4 seasons!

This is an episode I've been waiting for.

"Who hasnt been in the spotlight recently? Bashir?" Haha very well predicted