UNCUT - The Maquis Part 1 (DS9 S2E20) | Star Trek Journey 317
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DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 4 Jadzia 2 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 DETAILS: Almost another one for Quark.
I love all the Maquis episodes starting with this one. One of the things I always loved the most about DS9 is because how the Federation's ideals are challenged in ways we rarely get to see in some of the other series. And we get a good taste of that here. However, my favorite part of this episode though is the Vulcan. I love the fact that they included her here as part of the Maquis. In this case specifically we get to see how that famous Vulcan logic can actually lead one to many different perspectives on a great many different things. Although here logic leads as well to just one of several possible options to pick from in the situation we are presented with. In addition to that there is also allot of other really great character development here as well. This episode is a foundation stone for ALLOT of what is come later in regards to the Maquis. I think that is a vague enough statement that I hope it doesn't qualify as any kind of "spoiler" of any kind.
this is just scratching the surface of whats to come. happy your loving it. the sisko is going to blow your minds.
Fun fact, New Berlin is a city on the Moon
This is the perfect use of both shows. TNG is more optimistic and deals with broader overarching concepts and then moves onto the next story. While DS9 is grittier and can get a more in-depth exploration of what the consequences of the Enterprise's actions in that episode are. TNG is the best of the best explorers reaching out and spreading the good Federation message along the way. DS9 is a window into regular people living, working, surviving, and dealing with consequences in our corner of the galaxy
I wasn't even aware of when it aired. For us, it came long after Next Generation ended.
Far cry from Move Along Home, right guys?
So I had meant to mention this earlier, but there's a blink and you miss kit moment where Sisko is thinking about what to do and he does the "checks his pah" motion. This is a subtle motion but it's such a great detail.
Off topic - did you take down the chat area? I wanted to see if I could still leave a Patron Take on TNG 7x23 but there are no chats available
They are all still there. Try logging out and back in.
I love just how much moral grey there is in DS9. The characters have their own opinions, and ultimately, what the Captain (or Commander) says goes, but it's not like you see the Maquis phasoring Cardassian children (or the Cardassians phasoring Federation children.) You're allowed to form your own opinion, and you're not necessarily right or wrong whichever side you come down on. This is something that the passing of Gene Roddenberry allowed to happen. As much respect as I have for him, as much of a visionary as he was, he did tend to handcuff people with his utopic vision of the future. What about the people out on the fringes where their utopia isn't there yet? They have the time they need to be farmers or builders, or whatever... they don't have the time to create art or architecture or music, or be super-evolved perfect Starfleet humans. They're busy trying to survive. Then suddenly there's a treaty and you have to decide between giving up the land you've been building on, creating, pouring your blood, sweat, and tears into for most of your adult life, or giving up the protection of the Federation. On the other hand, they CHOSE to stay. They were offered the chance to go. And the Federation won't allow its citizens to commit acts of terror (killing Cardassian civilians) whatever the justification. (And "they started it!" isn't much of a justification, imo.)
Yes. At the same time the Federation IS a fundamental utopian organization... and I'm going to defend the admirals here. Consider you're a senior starfleet admiral. Every day you have to deal with complex political decisions (tons of them) that affect the lives of hundreds of billions if not over a trillion people. There can be admirals who take an interest in something special, but inevitably you can't really see the on the ground picture. This makes them seem clueless to us at times, but we can't really understand the big picture outlook they have to deal with. As Nechayev said, politics is the art of the possible. Let's not roget you're also dealing with a civilian republican government, differnt local governments for every planet, internal political factors, etc. They mentioned (and I caught this for the first time) that Nechaneyev is the Fleet Admiral. This would mean supreme commander of starfleet. She has a lot on her plate. She's also fairly new to the position as (I forget exactly when) there was someone else identified as Fleet Admiral.
I still love that sometimes your auto-subtitles hear "Kardashians" when you say "Cardassians." My favorite is "I think the Kardashians killed that guy."
The best mistake was in "Duet", when that Bajoran murdered Marritza in the final scene. Kira: "Why?" Bajoran: "He's a Kardashian, that's reason enough!"
but do you condemn the maquis?? 😂
Here's the thing that people can never understand unless you actually work in security. The best security IS authoritarian. The more secure you are, the less convenient it is, and the more freedoms and rights you sacrifice in order to maintain that security Now obviously, we all don't want to live like we are in a maximum security prison all the time, so we sacrifice security in favor of personal liberty in order to try and strike some sort of balance there. But the point I'm trying to stress, and I think what pisses Odo off, is no one understands that these too concepts ARE at odds with each other. Which sucks if you're the guy in charge of security getting reprimanded for not running things like a maximum security prison, when your boss literally told you NOT to run things like a maximum security prison because they care about people's rights. If you want to prioritize liberties, then security is getting sacrificed. If you want to prioritize security, than personal liberties are getting sacrificed. It's just like working in a warehouse where your boss expects you to have BOTH perfect quality, and perfect production speed. The two are at odds with one another in the same way. If one goes up, the other goes down. You can't have them both at Max. You have to accept a balance. So i understand Odo here. If your JOB is security cheif, working under the Cardassians is a wet dream because there's no contradictions from your superiors. You can focus on ACTUALLY maximizing security because the Cardassians don't care about personal liberties. But with something like the Federation, the Federation doesn't actually know what it wants. Like a warehouse boss, they want BOTH personal liberties, and maximum security, and these can't coexist. If they want to prioritize personal liberties, fine. That's good. But don't go blaming Odo every time there's a security breach because YOU caused that breach by insisting that security be lowered in favor of personal liberties. This is why people call Odo fascist. He's not a fascist. He's security-minded, and most people don't understand what that is. This, along with his sense of Justice, stems from his overall draw to order. But yes, people don't understand this tradeoff concept. And as a result, all security-minded individuals, including professions like security guards, corrections officers, and cops, often get lumped in as "fascist" as well. These people aren't fascists. They just understand what is actually needed in order to do their job well. Unfortunately, the public does not. If you want these people to do their job well, then most of the time, it isn't going to look pretty. You will never have 100% of both, but that's what people expect and demand out of ignorance.
I would make a philosophical point that actually both sides of the coin are about personal liberties. In the high security system, it's (in theory) about protecting your rights from criminals who would otherwise violate them. "Individual liberties" is the wording used when it's about protecting your rights from the state itself. The two are often viewed as a tradeoff, as you suggested, but I don't think that's actually correct. In a society where you are likely to be a victim of a crime at any time, you have a low level of personal freedom because your basic rights, right to life, to not be physically harmed, right to your own possessions etc. So as "security" increases, your personal freedom increases... until it doesn't because now it's "The state" which is ultimately just a different group of people are the ones restricting it. I think this confusion comes because people tend to view "the state" as an abstraction different from an individual using violence, but at the end of the day it's really just a matter of scale, and ideally some limitation on state power. But take two extremes- one where you are locked in a room and not allowed to leave, one where you practically can't leave because you're very likely to be murdered by some person. In both cases, you have very limited freedom.
With each rewatch of this show I become more and more convinced that the Federation should have simply relocated the colonists. It now feels so weird that the writers are asking us to sympathize with colonial settlers. They moved here 20 years ago according to this episode. This isn't their homeland. They are settlers! The ones in Journey's End were also colonial settlers. Edited: Sorry, I know this is a controversial take. But, when you see all the political problems it causes... The Cardassians love the propaganda victories this gives them.
although they're not the type of settlers who go and displace people off their land
Josh, you almost got Marc Alaimo's name right! It is Marc A-LIE-mo. The middle syllable is "lie" instead of "lay".
Never forget how to pronounce the Alamo
I love that you both pop for Gul Dukat. A great character played by an amazing actor.
Very entertaining reaction and I’m encouraged by how much you guys enjoyed this episode. It’s the tiniest tip of the iceberg of how incredible this series will become. I’m here for all of it.
"I'm so glad a Starfleet higher up has made this jump. Has made the switch. And says - you know what? no. fuck this. starfleet sucks, this is terrible what we're doing here" *ahem* *clears throat*
he's not really a higher up though. he's a commander, the same rank as Sisko.
GLORIOUS SEASON 2
Wait ..you guys don't like blood oath now? Didn't Josh actually like it a good bit and Alex have some issues but come around more as the discussion went on?
Well by the end, TA said it would have been better if they hadn’t done the episode… I believe. I think they want to like it but don’t.
Dukat is the best villain in all of Trek for sure, with a very legit arc
Villain??
Siskois having to go and clean up after Picard's little act of mercy. I had forgotten this was the next star Trek episode after Journey's End.
A big part of why the Federation wanted to settle with the Cardassians was because of the losses the Borg inflicted on the Federation a year or two earlier. At this point in time, the Federation was stretched thin and desperately rebuilding their fleets with both new ships and restoring older ships as a stopgap. The treaty itself is sort of the latter even, imo. It's a stopgap to allow the Federation time to restore their military strength.
Bernie Casey... U.N. Jefferson from Revenge Of The Nerds. Classic.
I love the Maquis. They are the sort of antagonist that you want to root for. Because they are three dimensional and have layers of good and bad. A longish comment on a trivial thing: The comment about the Runabout's technology is a little silly. It is essentially the Federation's all-purpose Minivan. It's classified as a Starship, but it's more of a jacked-up shuttlecraft and certainly nothing approaching high tech, much less super-secret bleeding edge. The speed, shields, and weapons are all mid-tier at best. Its main advantages are that it's cheap, simple to produce, has a long range, and the mostly off the shelf plug-in modularity gives it the ability to be tailored to individual missions without needing a deck for each one individually as per typical larger Starships. It's basically the Federation version of the US Navy Littoral Combat Ships. Only it actually worked in the role, unlike the Americans ships, haha. I suppose you could compare it to the larger Coast Guard Cutters that the US uses too. ETA: I realize I'm babbling about something many don't care about. My apologies. I just love ships, both fictional and real.
i get the gist of what you're saying
Can't say much for spoiler reasons. I agree with Josh, I love Star Trek.
episode is great, your reaction is great, and your intro reaction is entertaining as hell! :)
Better than I remember but it shares more than a few story beats with Homecoming circle siege for me to consider it wholly amazing.
Starfleet doesnt sucks , are their bad things that happen yes, but they have their right intention, being right all the time is boring, being a terrorist depends on which side your on,
not if you use the proper definition of terrorism instead of equating it with "weaker force". Your a terrorist if you intentionally target civilians in such a way to make a larger civilian populace afraid. If you don't do that, you're not a terrorist. Fighting against a stronger government or conducting assymetric warfare (which is usually necessary against a more powerful adversary) isnt in and of itself terrorism. The word "terrorism" has a special negative connotation because it's something people are supposed to universally disapprove of. Authoritarians and others use that rhetorical trick to try equate anti-state forces with "those who kill civilians to terrorize the population"
DS9 has episodes that you can have long conversations on, moreso than any other trek Series, Including TOS
This is where DS9 Finds itss footing and the story Begins Buckle Up
I agree completely with Josh with regard to the term terrorism or terrorist. Like a lot of other politically charged words, it does get thrown around excessively, or is used too little to describe what is in fact, textbook terrorism. Its an actual term with an actual definition, and should be appropriately used. The good or the evil of it is entirely relative. The early 1990's, that long lost pre-9/11 world, was certainly better at using this term appropriately, and understanding the importance of context and relative point of view. Now "terrorist" is an epithet that gets tossed around as casually as "stupid-face", and it's maddening when definitions of terms are disregarded. It's now right up there with "Nazi" and "Communist/Socialist" on the scale of idiotically misapplied terms. Yes, Kira was a terrorist. So are the Maquis. It doesn't matter who's side you're on.
What civilian targets did the Maquis attack?
Feel like this is the episode where DS9 finally arrives.
Dukat is the best villain in all of Trek IMO. He is compelling, menacing, charismatic, gregarious, empathetic, and even charming. He is that viper that smiles winningly at you just before he strikes. Marc Alaimo is brilliant as Dukat. He is THE Cardassian, all respect to David Warner.
Villain??
I actually didnt realize this came right after Journey's End. We just established that whole thing with the federation colonies within cardassian space, because of that treaty. Nice cross-show coordination ^^.
Where I look up the watching order, the airing date for Journeys End is 1994-03-26 and for Marquis I 1994-04-24 - so for the viewer there was a jump in time of nearly one month. Also, the episodes 'Blood Oath' and 'Firstborn' are listed inbetween them.
Bernie Casey actually auditioned for and was considered for the role of Sisko. The detail about both men having dead wives is building up an idea of Hudson as almost an alternate version of Sisko, played by an actor who could have ended up in the role. So it's a neat meta-level to the parallels between the two characters the writers are drawing.
I bought into their friendship here which I think was key
It's a very well crafted episode, but I think it was a mistake having Bernie Casey play his character so subdued. Brooks is already playing Sisko in a similar manner. Both actors normally play their roles with more energy and emotion. Hudson's reveal may justify Casey's lower key performance, but I still feel this story needed that bit extra he could have given it.
I didnt think he was subdued at all i think casey was pitch perfect
The wall of writers in this case was for legal reasons. As this was setting something up for the future, the Executive Producers (Berman, Piller, Taylor) were added, so there could never be a dispute that they created the Maquis.
Indeedy doodly.... so many Easter Eggs here !! - Love it !
I like this episode now that I get it was coming right after Journey’s End. I originally didn’t watch in that order because I didn’t have much background in Star Trek aside from my mom loving TOS from when she first came to the US. So it felt like this conflict came from nowhere and it made me think of people as disloyal. Makes a lot more sense and much more ambiguous as an adult having seen all of TNG and understanding the timing.
Great Episode :)))))))) Best DS9 reaction thus far!
So my interpretation of Sisko, especially in his exchange with Kira, is that he actually agrees with her completely. Throughout the series so far, Sisko has walked a fine line between two sides of himself: one being his genuine personal self, and the other a devoted Starfleet officer. In this episode, Commander Cal Hudson reflects the part of Sisko that is most true to who he is. Their friendship, the bond between their wives, their shared experiences, and their equal rank all underscore that connection. Sisko’s conversation with Kira isn’t really an argument. He’s playing devil’s advocate, torn between the truth Kira represents and his duty to Starfleet. She is the voice he wants to follow, but his loyalty and sense of command hold him back. This conflict echoes the earlier exchange between Kira and Odo about order and principle. Odo stands at one extreme, Kira at the other, and Sisko is caught right between them, struggling to reconcile truth and loyalty (in this scene, Kira and Odo stand at opposite sides of a table and Sisko's office lines up between the two). When Sisko ends the scene by pressing the door control and turning away from Kira, it’s not because he’s choosing to ignore her. It’s because he’s not ready, or perhaps not yet able, to face what that truth demands of him. That moment visually captures his inner struggle, a man suspended between conviction and identity, still searching for who he will become as the events unfold.
I almost forgot to mention! The first scene Sisko and Commander Cal Hudson have alone together. Hudson says he had wished he and Sisko would have had more time together for R&R with their change in command roles, but that ultimately was not afforded to them. This moment is another example designed to show that Hudson is one half of Sisko, the part that is his authentic self, and Sisko in this scene saying, "who has time for R&R?" is representative of his other half, the Starfleet half. The messaging here is to not lose yourself to the order of things. If we lose ourselves to the order of things (which is a call back to the Kira and Odo argument), reconciling with the truth becomes a harder task and the consequences can be grave.
On the topic of when DS9 finally 'arrives' or 'hits its stride', I personally tend to think its around the episode Profit and Loss because I really like both it and Blood Oath, and also because one episode adds depth to Quark's character, then the next does the same for Jadzia Dax while also giving us the return of the TOS Klingons and I like how that all goes together. However, I think the most obvious choice probably does have to be The Maquis. Not just for its quality, but for how it expands the story, adds more lore/fleshes things out even more, gives multiple characters good scenes to work with, and it really demonstrates how good the serialized storytelling can be on this series. I think an argument could be made for the start of the season just from the 3-part beginning, but there's still a lot of Season 1-ish stuff between then and now, that I have a hard time committing to that. I still think the show doesn't fully peak until Season 4, but from here on in it's mostly good to very good, with moments of greatness IMO.
I'm not sure DS9 really feels like DS9 to me until the back half of Season 3. However, this ending section of Season 2 feels closer than anything we've seen up until this point. I'd agree with you about it starting in "Profit and Loss", though, as that episode has a lot of world building about the Cardassians, Garak, the station, and Quark's history.
This episode is good, but... is it Genesis good?
“Not this time”
I'm glad you both loved this one, i'd have been surprised if you didn't. Definite S.
Some of the discussion of Dukat in these comments is too spoilery for my liking.
Nice timing to watch this episode with Sisko and Calvin Hudson reminiscing about good ol days of Oktoberfest beers, and lederhosen at New Berlin
Yeah and Genesis falling in Hallowe'en month. Random verisilmilitude. 🖖
Oh man. Just finished the episode, no discussion yet... but I truly thought one of you would clock the "curse your envitable betrayal" best friend character. 🖖🤣 So glad you didn't. Love these reactions.
So excited for this stretch of episodes ending the season. Also love how the previous TNG episode helped set up this two parter.
Sarek was the Vulcan ambassador to Earth and was living in Boston, Massachusetts when he met and fell in love with Boston University teacher Amanda Grayson. He found her to be intellectually stimulating and “most intriguing”. Also, Amanda is canonically a descendant of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. Source: Sarek! by A.C. Crispin. Published by Pocket Books. January 1994
Novels are not canon.
Yes indeed. #VeryDeepCut
I wonder if they are ever going to get to that really weird trek show. The one where Cardassian agents get surgically altered to look like humans and go back in time to act like spoiled rich people to corrupt Earth's morals before they join the Federation. They might miss it because it doesn't have Trek in the title, it's called "Keeping up with the Cardassians"
They experimented with the archaic form of torture known as "reality television" in the early 21st century.
There is a Pocket Book Star Trek novel - Vulcan, I think that states that Sarek and Amanda got together when they were trying to write a Vulcan-human dictionary or something...
So, there's a throw away conversation in this episode that you guys should try to keep in the back of your minds, when they are talking about the Badlands.
One of my favorite episodes and favorite reactions of the season. Keep it up, guys. You're now discovering why we all love DS9 so much!
yeah, I think this is a good example of what people mean when they say DS9 is more serialized. I got the vibe they were sort of against serialization though I don't really get that. It's not that there aren't individual stories, but things matter, it's not just press the reset button everytime so the casuals can not get confused and no stakes because everything will be back to normal next week
I think y'all had a lot of fun with this. I'm glad~
SISKO: Are these colonists organizing some kind of terrorist campaign? HUDSON: Well, if they are, they're not about to tell me about it. Another line that isn’t a lie. Why would they be “about to tell” him what he already knows?
eh, i think that counts as a lie.
I don't see Dukat as a villain. A checkered past, sure, but very interesting and complex. He is almost entirely good in this episode.
oh, he's a villian all right. It's funny, the showrunners actually ran into the problem of so many fans buying into Dukat's BS.
Finally Alex said it: Odo thinks he is about justice but he is really about order.
Sounds pretty FASCIST to me.
I’m wondering how long after Journeys end this episode is? because it all blew up in their faces awfully quick. We don’t even learn about other colonies aside from the Indians electing to stay in Cardassian territory.. I can understand the Maqui fighting for their “land” but it seems like once you have to move to secret bases or move your family, leave your “land” for safety they could have left in the first place.
It's all Wesley's fault
That was the best final 10 seconds of any review you guys have ever made. EVER.
I can imagine Federation diplomats toiling for 3 years on this treaty, only to have every Starfleet officer in the field, from Admiral Nechayev to Commanders like Sisko and Hudson along the border object to it, and their reaction would likely be "oh, the military never likes compromise." (Not to reopen a wound, but this is the same Starfleet that objected so badly to peace with the Klingons 80 years earlier, so the politicians might well just ploy ahead over the Fleet's objections.)
This may have been mentioned before. Another actor originally shot the role of Dukat on the first day during Emissary (the pilot) but the producers realised they had miscast and brought Alaimo in.
didnt know that, thank heavens too
You aint seen nothing yet
Yeah, this was a great episode, but it's still just warming up in my opinion.
We’ve finally arrived. 👌
LOL. THID is when star trek starts... haha
There is a book of how Sarek met Amada. It also delt with her passing and how he delt with that. It's a book so it is basically beta cannon still a good read. The title of the book is Sarek of course.
In my headcanon I treat books as possible alternate timelines
I was totally expecting you guys to be “oh the Federation guy is the bad guy OBVIOUSLY!”
Yeah, pleasantly surprised they didn't catch the badmiral (badmander?)
so I'm guessing you're not doing the "watch two parters as one" this time because there is a TNG episode sandwiched between this two parter?
I was wondering that too
Ewww, I got youtube clips in my uncut reaction….
You got your uncut reaction in my YouTube clips! (Sorry, too many Reese’s commercials in my youth.)
Okay. You did this to yourselves. We're going to need that political ad instead of a cinematic trailer for this episode now. You have all our faith.
Pretty prescient of you guys to say “Journey’s End” seemed like it couldn't have existed without DS9's influence. Well, guess what... Regarding Odo and his draconian security tendencies, I think the showrunners are going for the same kind of uncomfortable morality discussion they got so good at with Worf on TNG. We had all these moments where we had to face the fact that Worf's moral code was not the same as his human counterparts, from the light stuff (how he went to town on Riker's garbage scrambled eggs) to the heavier fare (not donating blood to the Romulan, killing Duras). It was a good examination of our assumption that every Star Trek race has the same moral code as humans, which obviously they do not. Not saying I agree with Odo (I don't), I just appreciate that the show makes me ask myself why I think Odo *should* have certain views.
Yeah, the guys joked about "fascist" Odo but the show has been making it clear while he cares deeply about justice, he DOES have a bit of an authoritarian streek. I think his reaction here is his frustration that he's an outsider who starfleet doesn't trust and will blame when security things go wrong but he is required to follow their rules. He feels defensive because there have been a few incidents but he feels he's getting blamed when hes being held back by regulations. His comment "say what you will it was safer then" didn't really mean he supported the occupation, he's made his feelings on that clear, but sort of a sarcastic frustration that presumably the Federation ties his hands more then the Cardassians did.
Loved this reaction! This is one of the things I love most about DS9. When things happen, they have long term consequences. There's no flying off to a new planet at the end of every episode. DS9 is great at exploring the deeper issues that come of decisions made by the higher ups, whether that's to do with Bajor/Cardassia or with the Federation. Very excited for what is to come!
We literally saw the Enterprise fly away from the situation last episode and on to something else. Now DS9 has to deal with the fallout.
Really hits it's stride from here on in. So happy you didn't anticipate the reveal until the last few seconds! The Quark/Vulcan stuff was ace too.
Love this one - Picard gets too swoop in give a speech to solve an issue before flying off, DS9 tho, they have to deal with the consequences…
well that was a large point of the subversive take of Wrath of Khan which they didn't care for. Kirk would "solve" these problems but he wouldnt really ever check back to see how things went, and realistically it was unlikely he solved all those societies problems and in hindsight a lot of what he did was pretty reckless.
here's a real world comparison. Donbas before the war. Although it was technically still part of Ukraine it was de facto independent. There was a no mans land where militias were still fighting. Zelensky went to some of the groups and told them to stop. They told him to fuck off. So after a few years, Putin used the excuse that Russians in Donbas were being killed by Ukrainian Nazis. Some of them WERE far right nationalists but there were a lot of different groups, and there far right Russian nationalists on the other side. Both sides were accussed of killing civilians, probably people they accussed rightly or wrongly of co-operating with the opposition. After years of this Putin uses it as an excuse to invade. Millions have died.
I think the definition of terrorism matters here. The "special evil" definition is killing semi-random members of a civilian population in order to terrorize the society for some ideological motivation. The word gets stretched, but that is the significant "negative meaning." Going after legitimate military targets is not terrorism. Authoritarians will claim any opponent that is forced to conduct assymetric warfare (aka where it's not armies and pitched battles) is terrorism. This gives a false ethical advantage to the more powerful force. There is another way authoritarians claim "terrorism" which is whan there opponent is not a recognized state. Again, this casts a rebel population as evil. In WW2, the "terror bombing" of London by the Luftwaften was called so because they were no longer going after military targets but bombing London somewhat indiscriminately. Putin calls Ukrainian fighters "terrorists" because he sees Ukraine as part of Russia. For "terrorism" to be meaningful as an evil. it has to be against civilian targets with the purpose of terrorizing a populace. It doesn't just mean an insurgency. The Maquis bomber- was not a terrorist. he wasn't blowing up a random cardassian ship, he was blowing up a ship that he believed was smuggling weapons, hence a legitimate military target. Kira was not a terrorist because she fought the Cardassian occupation force, she was a terrorist because she and her group didn't limit their targets to military personnel. But from their view, any Cardassian taking part of the occupation or any Bajoran collaborating was a valid target. If you're fighting an occupying force with overwhelming firepower, "playing by the rules" is a sure way to lose, because those rules are set up by the occupiers. They can send millions of Bajorans to death in labor camps and that's the legitimate actions of a military. But since the Bajorans wont line up in a row to be blown away, then they are "terrorists."
Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought it was said that the 75+ people on the blown up ship included civilians.
Odo is not beating the allegations.
The guy who planted the bomb was knocked out by those two aliens that were looking at him from above at the Promenade, they must have been working with the Cardassians. You said you remember their species, they were the aliens in the TNG Trill episode The Host, that were in dispute and the Trill negotiator was sent. It seems Trills are good negotiators, Beverly's crush, and Curzon as well.
Maybe they were surgically altered Cardassian agents.
The ship that was blown up in the opening shot was in Star Trek 3 and was blown up by Klingons.
wait really? There were no Cardassians in Star Trek 3. Did they reuse a previous ship model from Star Trek 3 and say it was cardessian? The ship certainly looked to have a cardassian design
So you seemed confused about the Vulcan. She was arranging quarters for the guy who blew up the Cardassian ship and informed him about a ship he was supposed to get on. She had nothing to do with his capture. The two aliens we saw watching them from the upper level were Cardassian agents who apprehended him on the station. She was then went to Quark because she knew he was a middleman who could set up a weapons purchase for the Maquis. Also, Vulcans can lie and do so all the time. In the episode of TOS where that was introduced we saw Spock engaged in an elaborate intelligence operation. Vulcans have been shown repeatedly to be capable of lying. Its silly to think they wouldn't be able to. The myth is just something useful. Probably it bothers them intrinsically to state falsehoods but they're perfectly capable of it if it's in service of a logical cause they believe in. How many time did Spock lie in the service of starfleet? The vulcan saboteur from Star Trek 6 lied plenty. I like the idea that the Vulcan was intrigued by Quark. It makes some sense since this Vulcan is already messing with her "shadow self". Yes, it could have been a fake out to get his trust, but I don't think that's what thry were going for. The Maquis are different from The Circle. The Circle were Bajoran extremists who were Bajoran nationalists who didn't want Bajor to be under the influence of any foreign power. The Maquis are former federation colonists who choose to stay in the demilitarized zone under Cardassian jurisdiction like the Indians from the last episode. Since other colonists decided to stay, it does seem odd that wasnt suggested to the Indians, but maybe that solution wound up being something a lot of colonists wanted and some time has passed since "Journey's End' and this episode. That's something about Trek, there's no need to think every episode takes the same amount of time as real world time. And Star Dates are time and location since you have to deal with where you are given relativistic timing so they dont translate to time like here on Earth. I guess the latter makes more sense, that the Indian solution was implemented for lots of colonists who didn't want to leave, or other colonies had already agreed to stay and live under Cardassian rule. One thing about the Maquis- yes, it's a bad situation, but when the commander is talking about how the Federation abandoned these people.. thats not really true. The Federation was willing to resettle them or they could have gone to Earth or some other Federation planet. But these are the sorts of people who for one reason or another left Earth or other Federation Planets to build colonies from scratch near a dangerous border. They are a certain type which makes sense they wouldn't want to leave. Probably the sort who didnt care much for the Federation anyway. BUT... I mean, from what we've seen, these arent colonies like entire planets of people. they are small settled areas. The people could have started again somwhere else, or have the Federation built their colonies to the exact way they were or.. pretty much anything. But no, they had to stay in those particular colonies because they had buiilt them and it was there community etc. But the Needs of the many outweight the needs of the few. When you consider the conseuences of intergalatic war, they are being pretty myopic in refusing any other option. Really, the federation's position should be- look, you guys choose to stay, we told you we werenrt going to protect you, deal with it. We will still help you leave if you want, but you accepted the consequences of staying and being under Cardassian rule. We aren't going to fight a war so you can stay on these specific planets. Then you also have your former starfleet member like Captain Maxwell who just thinks there can be no peace with the Cardaasians and Starfleet needs to.. i guess uterly destroy them. The cardassians are assholes no doubt. But I don't see how it's really up to the Federation at this point to do anything about this. Except one thing that I am confused about. They arent federation citizens anymore right? But Starfleet has an attache to the colonies? So is this different then the Indian situation? Like, ar ethey still federation citizens but living in Cardasian territory in a demilitarized zone? I wish they would clear that up a bit but its confusing. It matters a lot what the specifics are. Like if those same indians came back and said "defend us" it would be reasonable of the Federation to say "sorry,l we'll evacutae you but were not fighting the cardies for you." But are these colonies different? Federation citizens who are allowed to live on Cardassian planets by the treaty? without renouncing their federation citizenship? That seems like a terrible idea. I made this comment before the after episode discussion.
yeah, you said "oh we've seen those aliens before" not putting together they were observing him with the vulcan and were cardassian agents. She's part of the Maquis, she was trying to help the saboteur escape.
You're right, Alex: the reveal of Calvin is a case of hide in plain sight. Great magic trick.
Does the right hand know what the left hand is doing?
I always like the “political “ stories of DS9. It takes full advantage of the notion that the station doesn’t move on at the end of every episode like the Enterprise does. What they handle in October can come back to bite them in December.
Here we go.
Part 1 has been in the title of 2 parters starting with chain of command.
Sarek had relations with human women I’d imagine because he was the Vulcan ambassador to Earth and thus spent a lot of time with humans(I think I remember him stating it was logical BECAUSE he was the Earth ambassador and it helped him understand humans). 🤷♂️
There have been plenty of great DS9 episodes up to this point but this... This is the moment when DS9 finally kicks in the door and declares itself the greatest Trek series. There will still be bad episodes but from this moment on DS9 has a mission and a purpose with its narrative that just continues to get deeper and deeper as it goes along. Buckle up.
Something that TOS and TNG couldn't deliver was top tier reoccurring characters. Especially, antagonists. DS9 has the best characters you love to hate. When Dukat speaks, you can hear him saying "Why don't you trust me? I promise I'll be gentle as I twist the knife."
Q?
So... in case you weren't aware, Rick Berman was pretty much the Gene Roddenberry of this era of Trek. Michael Pillar was the DS9 showrunner.
I was having a discussion on the discord the other day regarding times when Star Trek gets "preachy", and about what. Funny enough The Maquis is an example of Star Trek getting preachy about.... itself, and I'm totally fine with that. Let's face it, we all know that for all the advancements and prosperity, and as much as we would all choose to live in the federation given the chance, there's also a lot of bullshit that goes along with that. Whether it's corrupt/incompetent admirals, policies that put civilians in danger(families on ships), or in this case a terrible treaty that should never have been agreed to. As I said in my Journey's End comment, the Cardassians are nowhere near big or powerful enough to MAKE the federation agree to anything. Chain of Command paints the Cardassians as having been bankrupted to the point their people were starving in Madred's youth, and while there may have been Third Reich style economic recovery, much of that would have been wasted on 20 years of war. On the Federation side, most people barely paid attention to it. The people directly involved carry the scars, but like one comment said it was akin to Vietnam, just minus all the negative press. This treaty was just a showcase of very weak leadership. The fact that Federation/Starfleet leadership can muck things up so badly that it inspires the creation of a terrorist network AND at least one of their own officers chooses to join them is a pretty big indictment of the squeaky clean future Trek always sold us on, and it certainly challenges the whole "we've evolved past that" narrative. This is something I love about DS9. It doesn't say those goals aren't something we should strive for. Sisko's speech to the prophets in Emissary is quintessential Trek. But DS9 presents a far less naive view of that future. And yes, FINALLY Marc Alaimo gets a chance to shine as Dukat(he was of course Great in The Wounded). His appearances until now have mostly been teases and cameos, but having him go on this buddy cop adventure with Sisko was such a treat. We don't really know anything about him except he was a big part of the occupation, and it's perfectly reasonable for Sisko to be concerned about Jake's safety after Dukat infiltrated the station and broke into his quarters. But of course then we learn he has kids himself(and apparently no condoms). Is Dukat still capable of being a cold blooded killer? Well we know plain simple Garak is, and it would be pretty on brand for the Cardassians, so probably. I guess the best way to classify Dukat is "complicated", and it's fuckin great. As far as the whole back and forth in the runabout where Dukat pulled the whole "we're not interested in your outdated technology" routine, I think that was largely keeping up appearances. Do the Cardassians have pursuit vessels that are vastly better than a Runabout? Yeah probably, I don't think he was lying per se. But I think it's akin to riding in a Blackhawk and bragging about how "we have fighter jets that could kick this thing's ass". Yeah no shit, so do we. The Wounded is a pretty good example of what happens when you compare apples to apples. The Phoenix walked all over them, and the attack on the Enterprise at the start was little more than a nuisance.
you're forgetting that a reason the Federation mucked up the end of the Cardassian war was the gillworm invasion. The gillworms were intentionally weakening starfleet so that surely played into it. I disagree somewhat. It's important that the Federation is utopian. Not flawless, but utopian relative to our world. DS9 is all about shades of gray, but it's still about what it takes to defend those utopian ideals in non-ideal situations. As far as Cardassian tech, I think what makes Cardassia a serious enemy is its intelligence apparatus. There's braggart in Dukat, but... again, I'm going to keep pointing out the gillworm thing, but they really messed up starfleet. The Galaxy class was a boondoggle. The federation was also a little overconfident after the FEd/klingon alliance made them the equivalent of the US in the 90s. Took the borg threat to get them serious about military tech (and the interpretation that Q is actually helping in his own way, though that gets very deep and I'll have more to say later.) Also, I don't think Starfleet having superior weapons technology means they are like, centuries ahead of the Cardasians. Probably more comparable to the modern US and Russia. Less advanced doesn't mean "not a threat"
If you guys don’t watch the intro; how are you going to get mad when they spoil guests in the credits?
They gotta switch up their bits during the intro for S3. They did the log entries for S1, this season it's "we'll be back to check on this in a few hours", maybe they can roleplay a drunk shuttle pilot almost running into a comet and circling around the station trying to figure out where to dock for S3.
LETS GOOOOOOO