UNCUT - Playing God (DS9 S2E17) | Star Trek Journey 311

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version DAX SCORES!!! The sex score board Quark 3 Jadzia 2 +1 new Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 DETAILS: Dax must have been in the mood for rough sex (or brutal I guess). To see examples that is a category on porn hub. Ummm we have been told and in no way actually know that. Jadzia is probably the biggest scorer on DS9 but we only have some evidence of “joining” for the 2 we are counting. Morn chatting up a chick in the background. If we see that again we will score it. The 6 or 7 hairs are a chick magnet. Can Jake seal the deal with an older woman, don't know, but good luck.

I wanted to share something with you two, hopefully you’ll see this. I’ve been rewatching the entire Star Trek franchise through your patreon, and been getting a lot out of it. I finally figured out what the B plot is in this episode, and it might change your feelings on it slightly.. The B plot about the universe expanding is an allegory for the initiate. When Dax and the initiate first discover the universe, it is small and appears empty. But, the first moment that the initiate shows a real reaction and emotion towards Dax by yelling at her and chastising her, the next scene they discover there may be life in the universe. But they don’t know how advanced. As they fly through the wormhole carrying the universe, they say they have to let the shield fail, and let the universe risk getting destroyed in order to get where it needs to be; which is the exact moment the initiate shows he may in fact be capable of being a good host, he succeeds in moving the universe and allowing it to grow in it’s own way and time. It lines up perfectly with the initiate’s growth. I hope you see this!

I have watched every piece of Trek multiple times and with you

I don't care what you think of this episode. I'm more fascinated by your morning routines ;)

“I’m always happy to see Chief’s ass!” Probably the best take in the history of Target Audience 😂

Also, I grew up with TNG, and I love it, but I love DS9 way more. I find the characters on DS9 to be far better written. I'm excited that you seem to like this episode so much, because relative to DS9 this is a fairly weak episode. Can't wait to hear what you think of later, much stronger episodes. That could also be what is going on with your patron takes. They are grading on a scale relative to DS9 as a whole, while you are grading while only having seen episodes up to this point.

You guys like the episode more than I do, but you seem to be basing your opinion entirely on the character work. The character work is good. But, it is so heavily weighed down by the proto-universe plot. That was nonsensical, and as one of your patrons said, the characters never really dealt with the problem. I like the Jadzia stuff, the Sisko scenes, the Quark scene, etc. But it is a C-grade episode because of that dumb sci-fi plot. Edited: I did watch it again with you, but I still found it hopelessly weighed down by the proto-universe technobabble plot.

I was bummed you guys didn't get the Hamelin joke.

DS9, being the most serialized Star Trek to date, does foreshadow plotpoints in coming episodes by dropping mentions in casual conservations in eps about something completely different.

My point was that this era of ST is littered with episodes for kids, where some young adult or teen comes on to the ship, unsure of themself, and then we spend an hour and eventually we know by the end they will find their way and they all live happily ever after. If it isn't this guy on his first assignment, its Melora in her wheelchair. If it isn't Melora, its the girl who is a Q, if it isn't the girl who is a Q, its Barclay again and again, and if it isn't Barclay it is the anxious students where Wesley takes his test, and if it isn't them its a mute guy who needs a pep talk from mom and dad before he can communicate. It's high school, its infantilizing adults and treating them like children and not acknowledging these are not kids because the show wants to write stories featuring kids but they don't have any available, so screw it, just stick this adult in and give him the kid story. It's trash basically, and better writers would have just come up with better stories.

The ethical implications of having to deal with a proton-universe that threatens their own is a fascinating idea, but maybe a bit too meaty to be crammed into a B plot...

Don't worry, DS9 reaches highs and lows (in a good way) that no other Trek show does, then or since.

You're excited for the rest of the series after watching this season 2 episode? Pfft, you boys have no idea what's in store.

Never seen this one before and I thought it was pretty good! I think they could have tied up the A & B plots better by having Dax and the Trill dude have the argument about whether to save the mini universe or not, make it much more of a moral dilemma than a science plot. Get rid of the tech jargon and flying through the wormhole and flesh out the debate. Also, am I right in thinking their solution to this newly expanding universe (that they established would eventually destroy our universe) was to just dump it in the Gamma quadrant?

I always liked this one. The Sci-fi plot is the least interesting one, but it serves a purpose. I love seeing the Chief hunt voles and the practical joke by Bashir sending him the flute. We are starting to see all these character relationships being built on, even if just in small scenes. We see Jake opening up about his girlfriend, this show/station is LIVED ON. Things happen and they keep happening and tie to future and past episodes

They feel the need to give air time to all the other actors/characters so that's why they had to have that sci-fi B plot in addition to the vole plot.

The Host having to have a strong enough personality to stand up to the Symbiote is how I interpret a lot of what we saw with Verad Dax in Invasive Procedures. In Verad Dax, we saw which traits Verad felt most strongly about because those traits dominated Dax's wants. But we also saw where Verad didn't feel that strongly, and those were the areas where Dax's wants dominated. For instance, Verad's want to take the symbiote and let Jadzia die was so strong that it completely dominated Dax's wants there. So that's an area where Verad's personality stood up to the symbiote and showed through. The best Dax could do was make Verad feel guilty about it. But Verad didn't feel nearly as strongly about things like maintaining the relationship with his girlfriend, or had any real plans at all about what he was going to do once he got the symbiote, so Dax was stronger there, and that's where Dax's personality dominated and showed through. That's why Verad Dax loses interest in the girl and cares far more about being of use to the galaxy than trying to slip away through the wormhole. Those are Dax's wants. I think Dax may have even hated the girlfriend for helping Verad kill Jadzia, so some of that hate shines through too. And yeah, if a symbiote got put into a weak host that didn't really care about anything, we'd get a TNG situation where the host's personality gets completely dominated by the symbiote.

I, too, was surprised by the many negative reactions. My favourite part of this episode is when her wrestling partner opens the door. I don't think it's implied that they had sex though. It looks that way at first, but she clarifies that she just likes to wrestle as a morning workout.

The Enterprise, for NERDS! Lmao. Poor Geordi being randomly roasted. Trust me, we're all just as excited as you are Josh, knowing what's to come...

Since English is my second language, I didn’t get as hung up on the techno babble. As a kid, I didn’t realize they were made up and just made inferences for what I couldn’t understand.

I love DS9 but I can see TNG still being your favorite show. But I do think you are going to love the things in DS9 that you can’t get from TNG. I think you have to take each show for what they are. Let them surprise you in their own way.

Damn, there’s so much that I want to say here. 😂. - Come on guys. Off the top of my head, Sex is said by: Bashir in “whispers” Jadzia in “The Siege” Alien ambassador in “The Forsaken” Quark in “Move along home” - I really love the reaction. Josh, it sounds like you’re starting to see how some of us enjoy most average episodes, so long as we have fun hanging out with our characters. - Speaking of characters. Are you seeing the level of supporting characters and connectivity that this show has? I can see the Pakleds walk by, the Klingon chef, or Morn in the background and just feel like I’ve come home. I love the familiarity that all of these characters bring. - DS9 could be your favorite series, while still having your top few episodes be of TNG. Just saying that it can be true. I can love both. Like you said, we’re JUST getting started with DS9 still. - I want to rant and explain some of the differences and reasons why you feel or seem to see that you guys are opposite the Patreons often. You’re not opposite as much as you think, but me getting deep into this would take too long. Another time.

I went back and watched it with you guys, and you are right, it was better watching it with you. I still hate the guest star, and I think I liked it less when I looked at the rest of the episodes this season, but honestly this episode was pretty good. B or low A for me still, but loved the dax stuff.

You both make good points why the negative reaction is overblown. I think the negative reactions probably have to do with knowledge of what's to come. The B plot is quite out of place for this series and there are so many episodes that are 100x better on the way.

I'm sure it has been mentioned, but in TNG season 1 episode 7 "Justice", Riker asks Worf "What about plain old basic sex? You must have some need for that." Star Trek said the "s" word from the get-go.

I don't get why people disliked this episode and liked masks. This isn't the best of DS9, but far from the worst, and Masks is just... really bad. I feel like TNG writing just kinda... ran out of steam in the latter half of Season 7. There's more bad episodes than good episodes there in my opinion. (YMMV.) But as you point out, at least you've got 100 more episodes of DS9, and this is where DS9 really picks up, I think. (More like episode 13, where more episodes are good than bad from there on out.)

To partially answer a question from the watch, Star Trek said "sex" two episodes ago in Whispers. During the "yearly physical", Bashir asks O'Brien "How's the sense of humor?" "I don't have a sense of humor." Bashir then follows up with "How's the sex life?" and O'Brien again responds "I don't HAVE a sense of humor." Whether its been said before that, I don't know.

The nice thing about the whole "Will we like TNG or DS9 more" conversation is that it seems like you guys are comfortable with whatever happens. Like maybe DS9 will eclipse TNG for you or it might not, but we will all enjoy the ride. What a gift that Star Trek has 3 shows that we love.

This is the episode that you really get Jadzias personality. Can’t help to have affection for this character after this episode.

of course most of these season 2 episdes shoot up half a point once Voyager Premiere

God I love Quark.

don't worry guys if you dislike the sci fiplots post 2017 is calling for you.

You guys were spot on. I haven't rewatched this episode in a while, and the wiki summary was just like "Jadzia finds a new universe" or something. I remembered that plot and was like "ugh I hope I don't fall asleep watching this one." But watching with you guys was a blast, and I definitely appreciate why you liked it!

I love TNG and it took me years to admit I like DS9 more. I still love TNG but now it seems more vanilla or safe, compared to the balls DS9 is about to start showing you.

DS9 absolutely is the cool kids table. And everyone has Aura in spades. And now, so does Jake.

I expected you both to be mostly underwhelmed by season 2. I mostly avoid re-watching it. Why watch a prototype version where the kinks haven't been ironed out and the framework of the show hasn't been established properly. So, you should love much of what's up ahead.

It's the observation longue in TNG

HA! Yes Alex you're TOTALLY right! When I went to start the episode I groaned and said to myself, ugh another of the final boring episodes before this show starts to cook...but then watching it again with you guys I found myself really enjoying it. You're right I think the stuff that sticks out in memory from early watches are the boring trill dude and the lame nothing burger sci-fi plot but on rewatch it's not even about those things at all. It's really a "day in the life" of the station episode and mostly a hang out with all the characters we love. There really are so many great little character moments with so many characters spread throughout this episode and really that's what makes Star Trek so good, the characters. So yes you are correct, I think most of us remembered the wrong aspects of this episode and forgot the great hang this episode is.

Also, Jadzia saying she wasn't sure why Curzon allowed her to have Dax is weird. Shouldn't she have all of his memories?

I'm glad I rewatched this because I really slept on how much good character stuff is in this one. I mostly just recalled the scifi plot before now.

I love how much you like this one! It’s always bored me a bit in the past, but I need to rewatch it now with some of your enthusiasm in mind, haha.

yeah. Definitely better on the rewatch. Still not AMAZING, but a damn good episode all in all.

And i felt the same way about DS9 at first. TNG was my baby for my entire life up until that point. I grew up watching it with my mom. How would ANY other show ever top it? But DS9 did. Of course you and I watch Star Trek for different reasons, so maybe you'll still end up prefering TNG when all is said and done, but the quality is definitely right up there. Just like at the beginning of your TNG journey, you still have no idea what DS9 is capable of yet. Necessary Evil and Whispers are a taste, but it really hasn't even started yet. There's some incredible episodes ahead.

BTW Alex made a great point about not watching this one twice. I'm remembering all the boring guest star stuff with the basic sci-fi plot (even ranked this one last in my season 2 ranking when I first watched through the series), but rewatching it...it ain't bad. Thanks for the new perspective boys.

A good episode of Dax character building, the B plot is meh but I overlook that because Dax. Solid A for me.

I actually completely agree with you guys this time. However, I think the reason why most people don't remember this one too fondly is because compared to the rest of the show, you're going to forget that this one even exists. The Jadzia stuff is great here, especially because this is basically the first time the show realized that we need to see Jadzia's actual personality. But the rest of us who have already seen the show, already know what Jadzia and the Trill are like, so this episode feels like nothing new to us. Plus the universe plot feels very season 1. I think that's what people were referring to when they said this felt like a season 1 episode? And you're right. This show is right on the cusp of breaking out. I read another patreon comment that said that the showrunners were told to hold their ideas back to not overshadow TNG while it was on, and I think you can sense that here. Once TNG finishes, they finally get unleashed and oh baby!

"Geordi would get decimated" fuckin killed me

I'm happy to be part of the minority who loves this episode. I thought the universe story wasn't the best, but far from the worst. I really love all the Dax stuff! Nice to have the comedy sideplot with Chief hunting Cardassian voles, yet another reason for him to hate Cardassians😂. I should add that a lot of stuff with Jadzia also amuses me. I rank it A.

Aside from the other mentions I see here, (fake) O'Brien and Bashir mentioned sex just a couple of episodes ago.

Solid A episode. Best Dax episode thus far. I really like the comfortable feel of normal day to day life on the station this early in the series. It took TNG a while to do that.

i really liked the Episode. For me an A- on the Tier List. And i totally agree that the B Plot should have been his own Episode. The Dax Story was amazing, if we could get a few more Minutes from the other Plot to develop it further, this could have been an S Tier Episode. I adopted your "fiery Pen writing in the Air" when i feel i watch a good scene. And here were more than one, which is really rare. :)

In TNG its called "The Ready Room"

having him not want the symbiont would have been too dramatic. This has literally been what hes preparing for and focused on hiw whole life. We don't get him coming out of his shelll because maybe he ISN'T the right candidate; it's clear the joined are only the elite of the elite. I like the lore drop of how if someone isnt ready the symbiont can overwhelm their innate personality which is preumably what happened to Riker. Also, this was one of your best reactions so far in terms of your analysis of what DS9 is and what it's trying to do but hasn't quite done yet; step put of the shadow of TNG to become it's own thing. I'd say DS9 early on has been at its best when its done that and at its worst when its sticking to TNG formula. Contrarily, I feel like voyager was trying to be TNG 2.0, and failed to do anything interesting with the franchise. But great commentary!

so wait- when she said "let's get this thing back where it belongs" they were in the gamma quadrant. Wasn't the idea to drop it off in the wormhole? Isnt that where it's from? if they just drop it off in the gamma quadrant wont it expand there? Did I miss something?

Pretty sure once the Trill are joined the host can do what they want; they don't make them lead safe lives to protect the symbionts

I think the idea that the wormhole/ celestial temple could be the birthplace of new universes is cool. Would have gone along with the idea of the Prophets as gods, and would be interesting to explore

I think it was chief in the background

It's interesting that joined trills don't have ALL the memories of their hosts. The fact that she didn't know or remember why Curzon had no objection to her taking the Dax symbiont is interesting in that previous hosts are able to conceal at least some things from future hosts. There's alot going on with the symbiont, and apparently it can hide or obscure information from a host if it chooses to

It's not unreasonable that Jake might be tutoring a slightly older women in something; I imagine your average Dabo girl isn't well educated. There's aslo the perspective that just because she's humanoid we can't assume age is the same as it is for humans. Species that mature at different ages complicate matters.

Alex is spot on about liking it more on the rewatch. I barely remembered what really was going on.

Funny thing is, I agree with pretty much all the praise and criticisms of this episode you have, but I still find this a mediocre episode. I do like a lot of the character stuff with Jadzia, but the Jadzia/Arjen plot here just doesn't wow me at all, and being forced together with an undercooked science plot and the stuff about voles doesn't help it.

I wasn't thinking of this earlier when remembering this episode, but now I realize this one kind of seems like a "reboot" with Dax. The very early episodes they had her being calm and almost cold to people. With this one they decided being a joined Trill just makes her open-minded and not even a tiny bit self-conscious. She's got a lot of interests, she is the only person who appreciates the Ferengi, and she even seems enthusiastic hunting voles. THAT seems like someone who has lived many lifetimes.

The sci-fi plot was a really interesting concept to me, but as you said, it was shoved into the wrong episode. It's crazy that they spent maybe ~15 minutes on an idea as big as deciding the fate of a whole mini-universe.

Does it mean anything that Sisko is playing 2-D chess with Dax, while Kirk played 3-D chess with Spock??

This episode reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Lisa has the petri dish, and the little civilization evolves. They needed Chief to make a "de-bigulator" to send Dax and Argen down into the micro universe. :D

The DS9 reactions have become the highlights of my week, more so because I haven't seen many of these episodes in years. I'm watching a lot of them for the second time only even though I own the box set. You guys are right in the sense that I didn't appreciate either Melora or this one when it first came out, but watching it almost 20 years later, I've found it far more enjoyable. All I can say is that these middling episodes have a payoff because the box that they're trying to escape results in swings that will become the template for all Trek series going forward.

TNG Season 1: Hide An Q. Geordie: "Worf, is this your idea of sex?!" Worf: "This IS sex. But I have no place for it in my life now!"

On the comment of fave Trek series - I can never decide between TNG and DS9 always felt they compliment each other really well. I’d say both are my joint fave tv shows ever.

It’s wild to think about how Jadzia knew Curzon before, and now she can remember that relationship from both sides.

I was just about to comment on seeing an episode once and Alex brings it up, lol. I saw this episode once or twice but it was like 15+ years ago. I always skipped it on rewatch. Before I looked it with you guys I was of the mindset it's a low C snoozefest. But honestly it's much better than my initial opinion of it. I can't speak for other people, but when it comes to my dumbass self I sometime just go off of my initial feeling I had the first time I saw it all those years ago. That is if it dealt with the theme or event I didn't already have a strong opinion of, and thought about it many times. One also has to be aware that maybe the first time they watch something, a certain mood, or whatever goes on in their lives at the time, could influence their take on it. Including you guys as well.

Ah ok think I have only hazy memories of this one - forgot how much fun Jadzia is, think this is the point we start to get a handle on her personality. Still not a massive fan of Arjin but the character stuff and the Vole sub plot is a lot more fun than I remember.

Love your shirt, Josh. Oh, and I give this episode a B.

I was hoping you guys would like this one in spite of the technobabble. Of course, Masks is an easy act to follow. Fun Fact: you guys have already watched 95% of all the "bad" or "boring" DS9 episodes. Facts.

I appreciated this one far more after a re-watch. Some really nice character moments and very funny at times. I don't think the plot per-se was actually bad, just at odds with the rest of the episode. You could have slotted the B plot into a TNG episode and it would have been perfectly at home.

Great reaction! Glad you liked this one. It's definitely some of the best Dax stuff we've seen so far. I also really love the vole subplot. Not a big thing in the grand scheme of things, but it just makes the station seem so much more real and 'lived in'. Having a pest control problem is one of those mundane day-to-day things which are important in people's lives but would never be the main plot of an episode. I doubt you'd ever get a subpot like that on TNG.

I can definitely see why you guys are into this one, and I would agree it's "over hated." But for me, I just prefer where the show goes from here and it feels like the last remnants of the "s1 useless plots" with the whole universe thing. Love that shirt, Josh!

Playing god? I’m not remembering this one?

This is a B- or a C+. Some stuff with Dax is pretty good, and there are some good scenes. But the universe stuff is, enh.

It's kind of funny, usually "oh no, the plot" doesn't bother me as much as it does you guys, but in this case it's the opposite. I agree on pretty much all the cons and pros, but the negatives just weigh it down more. Or perhaps the positives, which is mostly Dax, don't raise it up as much, which might be down to just having seen the show and knowing Dax's whole character arc. BN13's take sums up my thoughts perfectly. It's a C tier for me. The micro universe plot is extremely forgettable and Arjin is more boring than white bread and mayo. Sure that's to an extent by design, and he has a bit of growth by the end, but it's just not enough to make me care. I do like Dax being presented as a more complete character in this episode and this season in general, and Quark and Sisko have some good scenes, but that only raises the episode to the point of being "mid" in my opinion. I will say though, when Odo had his scene standing up for the lifeforms in the micro universe, I was laughing thinking about the take from a while back that was talking about Odo's "fascist" tendencies.

Rule of Acquistion #112: words to live by.

you don't create a singing Klingon chef character only to never use them again.

Gonna be interesting to rewatch this with you guys historically never liked it but let’s see how my opinion has changed as it has for some like Melora

In Justice Riker asks Worf what's wrong with basic sex.

I think this is the best Dax episode (so far!) This is the episode we needed by this point and honestly should have gotten a bit earlier. I really have no complaints at all. I will give it a solid A