UNCUT - Shadowplay (DS9 S2E16) | Star Trek Journey 309

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jadzia 1 GUEST: Numbnuts 1 DETAILS: Is it possible for numbnuts (Bareil) to make sex undesirable? I think so but he is not in every episode so we march on. We already scored Kira (god why) and numbnuts, so no new scores.

OMFG...I nearly pissed myself laughing when Josh called out the girl from 'Imaginary Friend'. I wondered if one of them would catch it. Too funny!! Also, shout out to Alex with the recall on Trill/Riker bonding Little girl to Odo - what happened to your face? do you like looking like Helen Hunt?

I remember liking this a lot more back in the day than I did on this rewatch. Oh well... On to the next!

This is the first time in a long time I got to rewatch this Jake/Sisko moment because I always skip this episode (because it's boring) and I completely forgot this is the episode it was in!

I find your ability to hate a character fascinating. Because it so rarely ever happens to me. I don't really like Bareil but he's just neutral at the end of the day, feels like a placeholder. I don't know if I can think of a character I hate (that I'm not supposed to hate). Maybe there's one somewhere...

I think this episode is fine, not outstanding in any way but a solid Star Trek episode. I never really liked the way Vedek Bareil was portrayed but I’m really tickled by how much you guys hate him. I almost want to see him as much as possible just to see you hate on him.

We have O’Brien’s actual rank here in this episode : Senior Chief Specialist

I wish you guys liked this episode more, but it's one that I really enjoy myself. The station subplots are just fine, but the Odo and Taya stuff is what really elevates this for me. They have such a nice dynamic, it actually makes me wish that had been the entire episode, and we never cut back to the station at all. Imagine how cool it would have been to see Odo and Taya investigating while Dax was figuring out the generator, and then have the arm disappearing scene much later, after they had bonded a bit more. Also, the old man's performance is great, when his mouth trembles as he says he loves his granddaughter even though she's a hologram, that makes me tear up a little bit. And Odo turning into the spinning top was a very sweet ending too.

I'm surprised you guys didn't like the planet plot more since you liked The Big Goodbye so much. To me, this plot is the next step there when it comes to exploring the idea of what it's like from the hologram's perspective. Are they actually real living beings? Do their lives matter? Or are they just an escape from reality that you can turn off and on at will? What happens when you let a holodeck simulation run for 30 years? At what point do they become more than just a program you created? At what point, if ever, do they becomes real sentient people? I think that's what the conversation at the end was trying to explore. Also, what makes this grandpa any different from Barclay living his entire life in a holodeck fantasy? Should he have learned to just accept reality and go back to real life on his home world, or has this fantasy become his real life now? And is that ok?

One of the things that Avery Brooks wanted to do with the Sisko and Jake relationship was model what a healthy Father/Son relationship looked like. Especially since he felt that black American families in particular at the time rarely had this modelled to them. I listen to a trauma channel that does the same thing. It will model unhealthy interactions between parents and children, and then model the healthy interactions. You'd be surprised how many people think the unhealthy interactions are what's normal, and they are floored once they realize that they've never heard the healthy interactions from their own parents. I'm sorry that Alex's dad didn't handle the situation as well as Sisko did. But Alex is not alone in having to deal with an unhealthy reaction from a parent. It's our job to learn from their mistakes and make better choices than they did. And not do the same stuff to our own kids, and show them support instead like Sisko did.

Bareil is truly insufferable, and I can't even figure out why he turned out that way. There's nothing really wrong with him on paper, at least not in this script. I also know the actor has been really good in other stuff, and it can't just be bad direction if we've seen him with multiple directors now (though I suppose he could have had trouble breaking out of some bad direction he was given in his first episode). In any case, the only justification I can imagine for the writers continually bringing him back is that maybe they also didn't understand why he wasn't working, and it frustrated them so much that they were determined to crack it eventually.

This is about as 'C' of a 'C' Episode as there can Cee...Err be. That said, I'd probably watch it again, unlike many other middling episodes. The stuff with Jake and Odo and Kira is all good character development for me personally. Jake and O'brien as well were a fun little scene. The hologram plot is boring and generic, and it had no real shock or surprise value. Star Trek has done much better variations of this theme.

I’m not sure if it comes across well but Kira is supposed to be more traditional than Bareil. The banter back and forth when he’s calling himself brilliant, he’s not serious and knows she’s going to disagree. It reminds me of growing up in church, and listening to the same type of sermons over and over. It was nice when someone does give a new interpretation or perspective. That convo felt realistic to me.

35 minutes of boredom, followed by 10 minutes of decent material. I'd have to go with low C for this one.

I definitely like this one more than you guys. It's a simple episode, but I never skip it on a rewatch. Kira & B stuff was lame like everyone said, but the rest is fairly solid, IMO. Like this ShazD just said "it's a nice, pleasant episode". Josh, I think it's like this for some of us. You know when you're hanging around with people you enjoy being with, that it doesn't really matter what you're doing? I've probably seen the episode 10 times and I'm not bored at all.

Oooft harsh for what I think is a nice pleasant episode.

LOL, those sounds (49:33)!!! You succeeded in sounding even more disgusting than the already disgusting Bareil. Well done!

The Great Kenneth Tobey as the old man .you can't be a horror Sci fi genre fan and not know his contribution, The Original "Thing" It Came From Beneath the Sea" Gremlins 2, so much tv and movies

Watching Jake pursue his career streaming Roblox on Twitch would have been more interesting than what we got in this episode. The story was an interesting idea but fuck me, they failed in the delivery. C+ and a D were generous scores IMO, solid E for me.

It's a strong second half upcoming

This episode is solid if you ignore boring Bareil. It's a holodeck episode without you realizing it.

an alright ep, but it did not need the 3 side plots lol. the jake side plot and the main plot wouldve been enough. the odo stuff was all great

Also I think the little girl did a pretty decent job.

Annoyingly, the writers got the Chief's rank wrong. Again. All of this could have been solved with 10 minutes of sitting there and letting a consultant explain it to them.

I kinda feel like sometimes you guys decide you don't like a episode early. And then everything that fits with that negative frame is reinforced and the positives are minimized.

I'll bet you're not crazy about this one but I enjoyed it. And in the days before "spoiler alert" was termed, I showed this to my sister and half way through my brother in law comes in and say"oh, this is the one where they're all holograms" and from then on "they're all holograms " is our personal way of saying spoilers were given.

There will be no more episodes below B this season. You don't believe me? I don't care. Because it's true.

While I like the episode much more than you guys, I'm glad you don't like Bareil, because I never liked him either! He gives out this whole holier than thou feel that a lot of religious figures do for me and he can just get in the bin. The main plot and the Jake B plot were great. We didn't need to the Kira plot, just expand the Jake plot instead. Solid B for me though, I was looking forward to seeing this again.

Wow okay so I actually really enjoyed this one rewatching it with you guys! I just like seeing the different characters all up to their own things. Get Bareil out of here though.

I like all the character stuff in this episode, but I couldn't care less about the main plot. I'm torn between slotting this one in a low B category, or a high C. I think it should be a C, but the character stuff elevates it slightly. P.S. Vedek Bareil is boring. They continually force the Kira relationship and they have 0 chemistry.

I'm with Alex: C+

This used to be a C for me but on the last few watches has crept up to low B. Thank god Josh that i'm not alone, i've always disliked Vedek Bareil, and mildly groan whenever it's an episode he's in, even if it's an episode i otherwise really like.

As we saw with Riker, if you put a symbiote into another species like Riker, you're taking a huge risk to both the host and the symbiote. It might work for a short while, but nost likely, eventually the body will reject the symbiote, and depending on how long they were joined before rejection took place, the host can die once the symbiote is removed if the symbiote fully integrated before rejection took place. But since "The Host" technically isn't DS9 Trill canon, for a DS9 example, the same thing can actually happen with Trills if that particular Trill isn't compatible with the Symbiote. This is what Jadzia was trying to warn Verad about in Invasive Procedures. Verad had no way of knowing if he was compatible with Dax. In fact, the symbiosis commission might have kicked him out of the program because they found out he WASN'T compatible. It's possible that 3 months down the road, if Verad had kept the Dax symbiote, his body might have rejected the Symbiote the way that Riker did, and he would have died. Verad was just so desperate, that he didn't care about the risk, and was probably so arrogant that he convinced himself that it wouldn't happen to him. But outside of those examples, every species probably works differently with the symbiotes if they can even accept them at all, so there's no way to tell exactly what will happen. It's only done in extreme cases like Riker's where they have to take the risk or the symbiote will die, or crazy cases like Verad's that are highly reckless.

The only thing I remember about this episode is Odo doing the shape shifting thing at the end of the episode. C

Was Kenneth Mars cast to draw viewer's suspicion away from the actual reveal? Casting such a recognisable actor implies he will have a significant role in the plot.

I used to play the end of this episode sometimes when I wanted to feel some emotions, hahaha. The old man saying "I love her" about his granddaughter. So sweet and sincere. Still gets me.

I'm no Vedek Bareil fan (is anybody?), but as far as I know the show has given zero indications that an orb can be manipulated / pre-programmed to stage a vision, so I don't know that he is responsible at all for what Kira saw when she interacted with it. And manipulated her in this episode? By what, suggesting they do something together, which she agreed to, which then led to them hitting it off? I think his real problem is the actor performs him in such a bland, almost monotone way that just makes him have the personality of a baked potato.

We've seen O'Brien play cello on TNG, at least once, maybe even in Lessons.

omg this episode so BORING. I'm so glad DS9 gets episodes like this out of their system by middle of s3. It's shocking that episodes this boring exist when looking back after seeing the whole series, it's amazing how much better this show gets.

DS9, in my view, is the best iteration of Star Trek ever released. That said- the Bajoran religion in general and the characters in specific tied to this religion have always annoyed me. When DS9 was "first run" viewers derisively called them the "TeleTubbies" and I have to agree.

The problem in the case of Bareil is, the way its written we need to have him be someone Kira kind of finds irresistible. And based on what we know about her, the guy is too boring for that. Or they're trying to make it sound like he's a sort of rebel clergyman, but his "serene" attitude just comes off as boring. Maybe it's a hard thing for an actor to try and convey, or that's where better casting comes in?

Love the "man fighting a gorn over there" joke.

See, I thought you guys would really like this one, for the character development and interaction for Odo and Dax, and for the Jake/Chief plot. And THEN I remembered that Bareil is in this one. . . . Aaaannnd that pretty much sums up Bareil, as a character and as a whole. "Oh, I forgot he was in this one." That's him in a nutshell. "And Bareil is also here." That's his whole deal. *sigh* Like, I know they were going for an "opposites attract" kind of thing with these two - him a passive, quiet, calm, assured man of god, her a loud, aggressive, often uncertain, flustered woman of action with a religious streak, but still questioning - but FFS, you need CHEMISTRY to make up for the opposing personalities . . . where all these two have is simply being nothing alike, and no actual spark to compensate for that!

KIra needs a dating app...

C - meaning "average" - seems about right. While I really like the A plot, both its premise and execution, it still makes for a pretty average DS9 S2 episode. The Jake part was the best, I think everyone agrees there The first older guy with the phaser they meet is played by Kenneth Mars, who when I first watched this episode I recognized as a crazy N*zi playwrite in Mel Brooks's original 1968 version of The Producers.

Also, again, you guys are using the term "technobabble" wrong. "Technobabble" is when a bunch of non-sensical sciencey soundy words are thrown in the dialogue to make sense of something. Voyager became notorious for this. On the other hand, just talking about science or using technical terms is NOT technobabble. It was easy enough to follow everything Dax said and it made sense within the context of the story. When we get to Voyager, you will see what "tecnobabble" is. It gets BAD there, as it is often "characters solve a problem by referring to bunch of technical sounding nonsense." Technobabble= Meaningless Non-technobabble= makes sense From Google- A bad "technobabble" example in Star Trek: Voyager, and the franchise generally, involves using complex, vague, or scientifically nonsensical jargon to solve a problem without a clear explanation, such as the line, "if we interplex the comm systems in both suits, we might be able to create a phased carrier wave," from the episode (removed). This type of technobabble is criticized when it lacks explanation or violates established scientific principles, undermining the show's intellectual core for audience and critics alike. Example: "Phased carrier wave": In the episode (removed) two crew members are stranded and need to contact the ship, receiving a rescue through the line, "If we interplex the comm systems in both suits, we might be able to create a phased carrier wave. (The ship) would read the signature and know it's from us". While this sounds scientific, it lacks a clear explanation of what a "phased carrier wave" is or how the "interplexing" would work, leaving the audience to assume it's a magic solution. Why it's considered "bad" Vague terminology: Instead of using a more straightforward explanation, the line relies on an undefined term, "interplex," to solve the problem, making the solution seem contrived. Lack of real-world basis: While Star Trek is known for its science-fiction concepts, good technological/sceintific dialogue often ties into understandable scientific principles. This line does not clearly do so. Undermines logical problem-solving: The absence of a comprehensible explanation for how the technology works undermines the characters' problem-solving abilities and reduces the audience's connection to the technology. How It Differs from non-technobabble- Gives a clear explanation: provides enough information to explain the problem and solution, even if the details are complex. Respects the scientific context: It avoids creating jargon that is too similar to true scientific terms while still sounding plausible. Offers a meaningful solution: It focuses on the problem's underlying science rather than simply shouting complex terms to resolve the conflict. I changed it slightly from a distinction between "good" and "bad" technobbable to just "technobabble" because the way the word is used by fans,it means "bad technobabble" Technical or scientific dialogue that does not fit into the bad category is generally not referredto as technobabble. The way you guys talk about Dax's lines, you seem to generalize it to mean "scientific or technical explanations." Dax is the science officer. For the most part, what she says makes sense, is understandable, and adds explanatory power to the plot. TNG had more "technobabble" but Voyager is the king.

Memory Alpha notes- Original idea was to have Odo and Dax trapped in a prison only to escape and find they are still in the prison. We get a blink and you miss it reference to Kira having 2 brothers, presumably neither of whom are still alive at this point.

This is one where they could have made for a better mystery. I mean, they pretty much just figure out it's curious that no one ever leaves the valley, then walk out there, see the sensor disapperar, then figure it out. One note- O'Brien signs up for Starfleet to get out of going to music academy, then basically gets sent right to the frontlines of a war. He must have REALLY not have wanted to go to the Aldeberran music academy.

I would say that like Alex I land on a C or C+ for this episode. It's still part of that mid season slump, but it's mostly a slightly boring episode with a few touching scenes that's passable. Nothing offensive about it. I think the girl did a decent job playing Taya, and Odo opened up a bit which was nice. It's fine. As for Jake not wanting to joing starfleet, without going into specifics, realistically VERY FEW people in the federation would serve in starfleet. There are likely 10s of billions of humans in the 24th century between Earth and all the human colonies. If we assume on average each federation member species has like 30 billion people, you're getting into a population or trillions. Wolf 359 suggests that 40 starships was a major loss to starfleet. It's not like they have a million ships. Even if they did with average crews of 400-600 people, you're still only getting about half a billion people in starfleet on those ships. Sure there's starbases and planet based assignments, crew rotation and all that, but being in starfleet even with those numbers would still be a one in several thousand thing. Given starfleet doesn't have anywhere close to a million ships, being in starfleet is likely more like a one in a million thing. Not like say the US where about 1% serve and another 5% are vets. So if anything, Sisko is disappointed Jake isn't challenging himself by shooting for this very exclusive profession. Plenty of other stuff to do though. Now I'm going to be a defector. I don't agree with Ken R very often, but on Bareil I do. I get the guy has a very flat delivery, but I never had an issue with the character. No he didn't manipulate the orb vision. That's all on the Prophets. Sure maybe he was hoping she'd also see a kinky vision and he'd get his shot out of it, but I wouldn't say he really did anything malicious. Perhaps a little opportunistic. He's one of the few bajoran political/religious leaders that hasn't been a dick to the starfleet contingent on the station, so I can't hate the guy. I get he's not everyone's cup of tea, but I think he gets pretty unfairly maligned a lot of the time.

Other random thought - Benjamin Sisko = one of tvs best dads.

Overall it’s fine, it’s not bad but always felt this was 3 B or C plots shoved together. There are character moments I like with Odo and Jake, not so much Bariel but there’s not much here to sustain an episode. C feels right.

Compared to the totality of SEASON 2, sure.... it is a C+ or B- But if I do what SFDebris does and make my score relative to the series. Compared to all of DS9....I think it's a D- at best. (this show will get THAT good, that this episode is basically almost an E) If it was a Voyager episode I would give it a B+ (no spoilers, just my personal disdain for most of Voyager) So I honestly don't know how to score this episode. Never loved it. Never hated it. Final Score? "It Exists"

This one is even worse than I remember. At first I though this would be an average one, maybe a lowerish C. Nope this is worse. The few good things about it were Jake and Chief, and some nice moments between Odo and the girl.

Does anyone like Bareil? I never did.

Agree on pretty much every point for the after thoughts. Felt like a meh episode, even the character development for main characters was sideways not forwards. Everything that mattered happened to tertiary characters that we don't know/care about.

Said it before, you guys could be trek writers at this point. You nailed almost every twist this episode. Even the moment at 46:06 with the idea for the bad title proves you have reached 'Trek Writers Room' capability lol

"We used up our wardrobe budget for the season." "Go run to Target and grab a bunch of bathrobes and blankets."

I would also agree a C+. Lots of good touching character moments from many of our cast, but the whole episode is like Star Trek Stew with too many ingredients all thrown together with whatever they had in their writer's kitchen at the moment.

The main plot is a fairly typical Trek story that you could probably insert into any of the series fairly easily.

OK, we're getting into the middle of the road for now. But after a couple more like this, we reach a really strong run heading into the finale. With some "important" episodes in the mix.

The return of Snore-iel

I had no idea that the girl was also the character in imaginary friend.

D is too harsh IMO. It's not on anyone's top 10 lists, but I think it deserves a C+ to B-

Oh wow. Surprised by this reaction. Not that this is mind blowing. But a very sweet emotional episode. Always get tears at the end.