UNCUT - Thine Own Self (TNG S7E16) | Star Trek Journey 308

Just joining the chorus in pointing out that NO, NO these people would not have put together the connection between their sickness and the stones! Also, Troy doesn't deserve to be Commander, and certainly not ranked above Data - can put me in that click too.

I like your recertification idea. To stay a commander on the Enterprise, you have to kill Geordi once per year.

Mr. Radioactive would have been a badass name for him. Oh well

Anyone know why i cannot hear or see the Star Trek episode the guys are watching? All i see is a counter on the screen.. please help

The Data plot has a lot of handwaving to get through the story. As pointed out by Alex, Data did not have his communicator which is the Universal Translator and is already communicating in their language. Even if he has that functionality in himself, he is not going to be able to articulate words to the teacher/doctor lady in her language with no basis. Based upon their level of sophistication, there word be no words for "cells" or "data" in their language but she obviously understood those words. It's an interesting little situation for the show that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. Also, the teacher is now in possession of Data's microscope and some new ideology so it is going to benefit their society slightly.

Troi’s story was the best part

"But you offered me 20!" This man is delusional, take him to the infirmary

“They are shitting outside”😂

It's one of my favorite episodes... Trying to put my finger on why. I enjoy the Troy plot for obvious reasons. But the best part is the Data story... It's a story of evolved logic winning the day... I guess. Lol. I don't know I just really enjoy it.

i love this episode.

him still being able to do his thing via reasoning was very much the point of the episode. "To thine own self" be true. It would be like if Picard lost his memory but was still able to be Picard- like the one where they all lose their memory but in that case they know they are in starfleet. Its a little weird because unlike a humanoid, separating from Data from his memories and having him be the same fundamental person doesn't feel like it would with a different character. But that is what they're going for.

I really don't see Paradise as related to this one at all. One was a cult, one was just a pre-warp civilization

in terms of leaving him, he was going to remote uninhabited part of the planet in mountains to collect metal samples. They didn't think he was in any danger. The power surge thing is pretty random. Would have liked a better explanation for that, like somehow the radiation interacted with something in the mountains to cause it, but I guess that could have happened and we just never got the explicit details because Data didn't know them.

The guy who got the most sick had the most exposure. he was carrying them around basically all day and night before he traded them to the metal worker. Radiation poisioning dependson exposure. The blacksmith worked the metals but wasn't in constant contact like the guy was the first day. His daughter who was with him most of the time was wearing the radioactive necklace. There will also be some idiosycnracies in term of individual immune reaction. By the time Data figures out its the metal and the woman gathers them, he is already suffering from a bad case of radiation poisoning, what looks like a terminal case without treatment if there physiology is comparable to humans, which it is because this is one of the many terran duplicate races made by the Preservers

It's funny, you guys say "oh, it'sso obvious"- to people who think of fire an element, it wouldn't be. It took a very, very long time for people to figure out germ theory. Think of how it absurd it would sound. Tiny, basically invisible particles spread andmake people sick? Or here, rocks that people aren't touching are making people sick? We take for granted so much knowledge that was already figured out before our time. A lot of things SEEM obvious when we already know the answers. A big part of this episode is Data without his memories retaining his reasoning abiliites and using the scientific method to figure out the problem. As you pointed out, a lot of the people have made the correlation between Data showing up and people getting ill. But the idea that rocks are making people sick? If you know nothing about sub-atomicparticles, which people here don't, that sounds like a magical explanation. Read about the history of science, particulalry before early scientific methods were discovered. There were lots of things that were observed and reasoned that turned out to be wrong. Interestingly enough, there were cases where some societies got it basically right, while missing the underlying causes. Jewish emphasis on purification was actually an extremely good match for sanitation, which lead to lower rates of infection amongst jewish people and allowed them to have longer life spans and thus pass down knowledge. But they knew nothing of germs. They knew "clean" and "unclean" which when you look at how that worked out, was a very close match to "sterile" and "not sterile" but they perceived it as on line with God and phyiscal purity in moral and spiritual terms.

So here is probably a good place to mention- Spiner has a youtube comedy series called "Fresh Hell" which is GREAT but for some reason didnt get much attention. It's a mini-series where Spiner plays himself, trying to resurrect his career after he gets cancelled (we never learn exactly what he gets cancelled for but we hear that it was a unifying moment for the country in that they learned to put aside their differences in their mutual hatred for Spiner) Spiner is now living in less then luxurious apartment building where he makes friends with his wacky neighbors who try to help him with his career as he helps them with their various goofy problems. Absolutely worth checking out. A sample episode- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBfT9H_2jM4

I really thought they would enjoy this one. I guess the explanation I've heard in the comments, that they don't enjoy Data's use of the scientific method, probably explains a lot of why they don't dig it. Yes, the nature of Data's amnesia is extremely convenient, but I don't see that as a show killer.

I definitely like this one more than you guys. I get that it has some flaws, but I enjoy both plots personally. Enough for it to sneak into low A tier. I think the balance of time between the 2 plots worked for me because ultimately Troi's was about her facing the possibility of ordering people to their deaths, and that just doesn't require as much screen time to resolve as Data's radiation poisoning plotline. I do like that Troi has been given a LOT more to do these last 2-3 seasons, and especially how after Chain of Command the writers treated her rank and position as a starfleet officer with more respect. For much of the show she the "empathic" counselor who walks around in skin tight onesies and everyone kinda has a crush on. The fact she's also the same rank as Data throughout was an afterthought until Jellico made her wear a uniform and all of a sudden you remember she's also a starfleet officer with many years of service. I also like the idea of Data and Troi both going to take night watch and that's how he realizes she's been promoted. To be clear though, Data remains second officer after Riker. Crusher has outranked Data since the beginning, but medical(which Troi also falls into) is pretty low down the command structure. An Ops officer, especially an android, simply has a more applicable skillset for command. Still, Crusher and Troi taking those extra shifts in command is good experience if they ever decided they wanted to pursue a command of their own. Obviously anything really serious means Picard and Riker get woken up, but there's still a lot of decision making they get to do. I don't have a ton to say about Data's plotline, but I do like the idea that even without his memories, Data remains essentially the same person. Also a touching scene when Gia asks if he believe essentially in the afterlife and he says he does. The title is also a bit of a callback to Hide and Q where Data quotes Hamlet to Riker saying "was it not one of the captain's favourite authors who wrote 'this above all; to thine own self be true'". One thing I will say is that Data in particular is hard to sell being killed off. In Ethics when Worf is lying dead for several minutes, part of you asks "are we doing this". When Picard was assimilated and there was no cultural osmosis to know the character was around a lot longer than 3 seasons, a lot of fans questioned if he would return. With Data though, you kind of need him to be vaporized or blown up entirely to buy he's "dead" dead. Like his shuttle blowing up in Most Toys. Of course WE know he's alive, but you buy the Enterprise crew believing it. The guy's head sat in a cave under LA for 500 years and they were able to boot him up again. The stakes are always going to be a lot lower for Data than a flesh and blood character in a lot of dangerous situations. As for why Picard only appeared in one scene, I believe PS was doing a stage play of A Christmas Carol in London at the time of filming. Also, just 10 episodes to go.

What bothered me most is after a time, Data knows a bunch of technical words, but somehow doesn't know what the word "radioactive" means?!?!

You guys touched on something that I mentioned on here... maybe back in Season 4 or Season 5. I said something along the lines of.. in Season 7, just like Season 1-2, you are going to have your fair share of episodes that are either stinkers (this wasn't one), or simply mid. The difference between then and now is that the cast and writers are confident and comfortable with who the characters are. Even if the plot itself is meh, it's just a lot of fun at this point in the show to spend time with this crew.

Think positively: every episode closer to the end of TNG is one episode closer to Voyager!

Do you think just watching the DS9 "Paradise" episode could be why you didn't enjoy the data plot more? I never realized until now that they were released one day after the other.

You know, i take it back. I mentioned elsewhere in the comments that I liked the Troi plot better. After just now rewatching this, I think I like the data plot far more. I actually prefer it to the point where I wish the Troi stuff wasn't even in the episode. I think instead of an A/B plot, i wish each of these plots were their own episodes. The Troi plot needed more fleshing out, and I wish the test could have been more like ehat we saw in Coming of Age.

I do not have anytime bad to say about this one, but it is just forgettable to me. Nothing really stands out. I do agree if they just did it as a Troi episode it could have been really good.

Josh, I liked your comment about the characters being allowed to be the strength of the show in S7, and your feeling that it should have been the focus earlier. What you describe is essentially that DS9 is. I haven't watched S7 in a long while, but I wonder how much influence DS9 may have had in some of the late TNG character-focused writing.

This is one of my favourite episode of Season 7. I can't say I agree on your grading on this one. I like the A plot a lot, and i feel the B plot with Troi was fine and I didn't feel like I needed any more.

Assuming things don't change much at the Academy, we've already seen Wesley have the "psych test" during his application. Maybe Riker is just doing a variation of that, knowing that Troi can memorize the power bypass stuff but ordering a friend to die would be her weak point.

50:42 I thought the acting in this was pretty good. The "Data loses his memory" thing is pretty contrived, but...

17:20 I hate that the anvil wobbles when Data sets it down... of course it would not do that if it were actually as heavy as they were pretending...

1:00 ROTFL!!!! That's hilarious!

Given you commented on not understanding exactly how radiation poisoning works, I'm guessing you've both never seen the limited HBO series Chernobyl? Extraordinarily well-made show depicting what happened during and after the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in Soviet Russia. I'd love to see a reaction to that too one day (only 5 episodes).

I wish I knew why Alex cracks me up so much “…then he drops it back on his foot” has just creased me. Just something about that nonchalant dead-pan delivery tickles me sometimes I guess Edit… oh my god Alex “…or they’ll have to blow up the planet” 🤣💀 I can’t even

Starfleet officer rank pips: Ensign (one gold pip) Lieutenant Juinor Grade (one gold one black pip) Lieutenant (two gold) Lt Commander(two gold one black) Commander(three gold) Captain(four gold)

Kinda doesn't make sense that they drank the water after he dumped that in there. I know it was a two day walk to the next river but still.

I realize you guys aren't science or medicine geeks but I can tell you guys are half a generation older than me. People born before the fall of the Soviet Union seem to know more about radiation as an aspect of pop culture. It was just something that came up in the general culture.

Prior to this episode, we’ve only seen three promotions in the main cast, two for Geordi (Lt. Jg. in S1 to Lt. in S2, to Lt. Cmdr. in S3) and one for Worf (Lt. Jg. in S1 to Lt. in S2). I guess you can count Wesley Crusher getting the promotion from acting ensign to ensign in S3, but he basically lost that when he went to the academy in S4.

S7 is a lot better than I remember, used to think it was just an extended farewell tour but its definitely far better than that.

I'm sure its been covered, but Bashir is a Lieutenant Junior Grade. Not even a full Lt. He's a kid in his 20s. Data is a Lt. Cmdr, a full two ranks higher. Crusher has had those 3 pips on her collar the entire show, and has always been a full commander. Which makes sense as Chief Medical Officer, as she in charge of every doctor and nurse and medical technician on the ship...and people with those credentials tend to have rank. She's not just a commander in rank, she's a department head. For a ship with over a thousand people, she manages a good size staff.

the data storyline kinda reminded me the TOS ep "The Paradise Syndrome"

I think the whole thing with Data on the planet is that as Jayden he was "born" and "died" there. He didn't remember being Data and later Data didn't remember being Jayden. He was his own character that lived just for this episode.

This is another S7 favorite for me. Both stories are great, but it’s the Troi story that continues the development of her character that we saw in “Disaster” and “Face of the Enemy” that takes it to an S for me.

The blacksmith also played Kurt Russels best buddy in 'Overboard', the romcom with Goldie Hawn I loved to death back then.

6 monthly prime directive refresher, consisting of a super infantilising interactive training module followed by a multiple choice quiz you can retake an unlimited number of times.

also was it just me or were troi and riker INSANELY lovey dovey in this ep 😂 its like they started hooking up again off screen lol

data was so handsome in this episode it couldve been 45 minutes of him knitting and i still wouldve given it an s 😂

This might actually be my favorite Data episode. It's Pinocchio and Frankenstein at the same time. It's out of standard setting, so Brent Spiner gets to stretch a little but stays within the Data box. It's one I look forward to every time. As for the Troi half, one thing people who bristle about this one tend to overlook is that Troi proactively sought it out. Maybe Data is a Lt. Cmdr. because, at present, he's perfectly content to be one and doesn't feel that an elevation in rank would substantively affect his role. No one questioned his authority in Gambit and Picard only hesitated for a moment in Redemption because he simply hadn't considered it -- probably because it was the first time Data had expressed interest. Troi's probably been working on her Bridge presence since Disaster with this being the culmination. Good for her. It's not a competition. (Also, Beverly's been a Cmdr. since the start of the show -- her hair often covers her pips.)

Another good way to finish the episode i think would be Data going on the bridge for night shift, Deanna being in the Captain's chair, and after she explains about her promotion, he sits in Riker's chair.

I admit Picard didn't contribute much in the final scene. The reason he had such a small role in this is Patrick Stewart was starring on stage in A Christmas Carol at the time

I think both DS9 and this episode are close together because they used some of the same settings

Levar Burton who only had a small role in this wasn't aware of the Deanna plot, a few weeks later he asked Marina when Troi got promoted. She said 'do you remember a few weeks ago when i sent you to your death?' He replied 'Oh, i wondered what that was about'.😂. I also would have preferred more on the Deanna plot. For me i agree with you the Data stuff was just a standard C, but with the Troi it's a B overall from me.

When I work with chemotherapy patients I have to double glove because of the necessary protection when dealing with radiation. The radiation you see in this show is radiation that destroys DNA, which is why it is so dangerous. The "burns" on the skin is a sort of an immune response to essentially the bodies cells exploding (I'm describing this in very layman's terms, there's more to it). As for your take on a re-write on Troi figuring everything out, kind of like you briefly mentioned, that re-write takes away from her ability to actually see what is going on. She already figured everything out before going back into the holodeck. There was no reason to continue the program. We saw all of her realization on her face when she was in her quarters. Her entering the holo-program again was just to prove it to herself. From my military knowledge (It's not perfect, but I have a lot of family that has been in the military, including my grandfather who retired a Command Sergeant Major — the highest rank you can get if you are not an officer) the tests that you take is essentially a review board going over a persons history and assessing their qualifications. I suppose there may be some technical tests that need to be passed as a final stage to get the promotion, but I suppose because Troi wanted to be a bridge officer, there would need to perhaps be some additional tests, such as the simulation Riker was putting her through.

Random YouTube rabbit hole a couple months ago had me surprised the number of times the Data plot actually happened irl. Somebody finds a strange device, pry it open to find some glowing dust or a warm rock and they pass it around to family and friends as a curiosity, only to have a strange sickness suddenly pop up. I wonder if this episode was written with those situations in mind

I love the A-Plot but wish the B-Plot was it's own episode. I like the A-plot because it stresses empirical evidence and critical thinking which, especially now, are seemingly disappearing from society and we are heading backwards. And I feel, much like a few others here, that the b-plot was too rushed and makes it seem like the Bridge Officers test is quite easy when they set it up as a big deal. Expanding it to the A-plot, even the solo A-Plot, of its own episode and have it show it actually be difficult would have been great. But all in all I still like the episode quite a bit!

You guys are too used to Brent's acting. He was superb in this episode and should be recognized for it. The little girl was very good too.

I much prefer the A-plot from the B. The A-plot does a great job showing how someone like Data would act in a primitive society. Even after losing his memories, he is still Data, and he does what a Starfleet officer should do in this situation. I like how there wasn't a "bad guy" in this story, other than ignorance. The woman "healer/scientist" is the best primitive scientist that I have even seen in any stories, without seeming unrealistic. The B-plot is meh IMO. It felt rushed, it should have been the A-plot of another episode. It makes it seems like all you have to do to be a bridge officer is to be able to order someone to their death. She passed the engineering test without showing that she knew the subject (is it that easy?) and we see nothing about management, no Kobayashi Maru test, nothing about the prime directive... You can order someone to their death for the good of the ship? Alright you're in. Ridiculous!

Alex is hanging with the TNG cast and telling Spiner to shut his mouth; Josh has a garage full of Sprite; you guys are CRUSHIN' IT!

It's interesting to watch Troi go from almost telepathic thought sensing abilities in the first few episodes to more empathic sensing abilities for a few seasons and now she doesn't have a clue what even someone as close to her as Riker is thinking.

Data lands at a renaissance fair

The way I understand it is, as medical officers, Dr Crusher and Troi eld the rank of Lt. Cmdr, but were not qualified to serve as officers of the watch. If you went on a modern-day navy ship, the doctors on board would have a good rank based on the expertise involved in holding their position. But they would get to command the ship based on that rank. These tests gives Crusher and Troi that extra command qualification and also bump them up to the rank of Cmdr. Officers like Data, Geordie and Worf would have all this training as part of their natural career progression. What annoys me is when Troi jokes that Data should call her "sir". Data is the ship's second officer. Only Picard and Riker are higher up the command structure than he is.

Funny - I thought Data's A-plot was done very well as a tragic tale of being treated as a monster by the ignorant and fearful, and the B-plot was more forgettable (though I did like seeing Dr Crusher in command again).

I noticed they did a great job with off-duty clothing in this episode. When Deanna first arrived from the shuttle, she's dressed similar to season 1, but later, talking to Riker, she's in uniform again, while Riker is dressed casual. Nicely done.

I look at the commanders test as more of a prerequisite to being promoted. In the navy there are multiple factors for promotion, including minimum time in current rank and certain qualifications achieved. So Geordi and Data who have control of the bridge in many epsidoes have passed the commanders test but are missing either time in rank or some other qualification in order to be full commanders.

Deanna passed her test. And you know what else passed? The Bechdel test. A nice long opening scene where Troi and Crusher had a conversation about shop talk & career advancement. Nothing about a man. I'm glad that the scene played naturally as part of the plot instead of some shoehorned-in box-ticker scene.

Always bugged me a bit that Troi took one test and was suddenly a higher rank than Data. I mean, one test? 🤷🏼‍♂️

Bashir is a lieutenant jr. grade (1.5 pips as you called it), Worf would be a full lieutenant with two full pips. Data is a llieutenant commander with 2.5 pips, while now Deanna is a full commander.

A nice and gentle one. Agree that the B plot was, in many ways a lot stronger. Couple of nice shots too, but overall...meh.

Speaking of drinks, I. Haven't seen Fireball make an appearance in a while. Lol

It always seemed a bit strange to me that after disaster, or face of the enemy? Deana didn’t go for her commander test. Or that Bev went and got hers first. As a character Beverly never really had that trying moment with command? At least not onscreen she just accepted more responsibility.

Can you imagine the effect on morale if you did a decade at the Academy to be in command and but tonight you answer to your ships counselor who passed a test.

"Jaden" (or "Jayden", etc) is not a name I ever heard in the 90s, now it - with Brayden, Hayden and Aidan - is a meme Also, the test wasn't for becoming a commander, it was the "bridge officer's test" which was for anyone wanting to be able to take command of the ship (outside of emergency situations, that is). The promotion to full commander is likely a requirement after passing, to avoid rank conflicts - she'd definitely earned her 3rd pip!

Like Josh says, I always figured that the command officer test was designed specifically for the person being tested, or at least for the specific ship. Riker mentions after the first test that the next time she takes it, it'll be a harder problem, so I figure that the details are not set it in stone. Presumably, they would all involve _some_ kind of difficult choice, but I can't imagine it was always "send the chief engineer to his death".

I think the reason for the test was to be a bridge commanding officer, not necessarily necessarily to get promoted to commander in rank. Passing THAT test would come with an automatic promotion, but Deanna could have waited to get promoted by Picard to full commander rank the usual way - she just would not have been able to serve as a commanding bridge officer.

I love Ronnie Claire Edwards, who played the village healer, mainly because she used to play one of my favorite characters on the 1970s and '80s show, The Waltons.

For the "Commander" plot to truly work in the real world, Troi should have awoke to a normal day, but gets called to Engineering. Suddenly, an explosion traps her and Geordi, cut off from the rest of the ship. They evaluate the situation, the ship is going to explode in 30 minutes. They both try multiple methods to save the ship. With 2 minutes left, Troi realizes she has to order Geordi to do an extremely painful and deadly procedure, which she knows he won't survive. Similar ending as the episode. Geordi goes and the holodeck doors open. Riker enters to tell her she's been on the holodeck since she awoke. And she passed the Commander test. It only makes sense if she doesn't know she's being tested. Plus, it's an excellent reveal to the audience.

Oh wow, I just realized what the A story is based on - the well gave it away: an old Ibsen play called Enemy of the People. One of the things Star Trek does so well - adapting classical stories to a sci fi motif with some further modifications. I'd give the overall episode an A because of the beautifully executed B story.

I like this one particularly the Troi plot. Patrick Stewart getting only 1 line in this one - did he have a week off?

Fun fact: The actress who plays Talura, Ronnie Claire Edwards, played a similar type of character for years on The Waltons in the 70's and 80s.

Disagree that Troy doing great when she was put in that position. O'Brien: the warp core will lose containment. Tro: which means? 😧 Ensign Ro: the Ship Will explode idiot!