UNCUT - Paradise (DS9 S2E15) | Star Trek Journey 307

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jadzia 1

Checking this out for your reaction since most of the episode is not great, good lesson I suppose and good start and Kira and Dax

Yeah, the people staying behind 100% makes no sense. After 10 years on Karen's Plantation, I'd be on the first ship home. I would find the first replicator...start with a nice caprese salad, then some butternut squash soup, then a ribeye steak with a potato featuring more sour cream and butter than actual potato...then a pile of tiramisu with a slice of cheescake on top of it. Then a brief nap before locking myself in the holodeck with a copy of Vulcan Love Slave for a couple of days. Its just completely unrealistic that literally EVERYONE would want to stay and scratch vegetables from the dirt and cross their fingers they don't stub their toe and die of tetanus.

I'm with Alex on this one. Some good moments in it, but it seemed like the execution was a little off. Like, there was no debate about leaving the planet from that community? Everyone just shrugged off the revelation that she manipulated and lied to them all? It felt like the end was, "I guess she lied but, this is our community, so no big deal. Thanks for coming!" It was like they got toward the end and didn't notice they were running out of time.

The sad thing is, I doubt she had to con anyone... there are probably plenty of weird, idealistic people in the Federation who would have happily abandoned technology to go live on a farm, all she'd have to do is send out a notice and invite people. Now she's gonna go to prison and live on replicated food.

As I tried to say in a lost post somewhere, it seemed like they were trying to evoke Avery Brooks' turn on Roots back in the 80s. Interestingly, Kate Mulgrew, Tim Russ, and LeVar Burton were also there.

When Karen starts a cult.

Watching along with the guys was the first time I've ever seen this episode I think. The ending is so confused in its moral message. The whole community was built on a huge lie, they were all horribly manipulated, but they just sort of shrug it off? And the woman willingly goes to "face justice"? I don't really buy any of it, it's extremely weird.

Incredibly, even in the 90s and aughts, the "private reform school" business, where parents could send their kids away for any reason (some were violent hooligans, others were just gay, and you had rapists and girls sent there who were reaped) the ones that operated in Mexico used hotboxes as punishments. It took someone dying for that to e finally looked into. Even after that, these "schools" which were basically private torture prisons where things that literally would be against the geneva convention ofr prisoners of war were routinely used against teenagers to brreak them down and "mold them." I had a friend sent to one of these horrible places, Thankfully due to investigations and activism, these places have finally been regulated, but you don't have to go all the eay back to slavery to see hotboxes used against american kids.

The book is Lord of the Flies

As far as the question about stealing the candle- they don't have money. But their resources are extremely limited. So they make candles, but like everything else, it's long, hard work and they only have so many of them. Presumably the use of any communiy produced resource is allocated by the community. So he took a candle for his own use that was not authorized for his explicit use. Like maybe everyone gets one candle, and they can use it to read or light up their room or whatever, but when it's finished it's finished and they don't get another one till the next batch is made. So he stole a candle for his personal use that he wasn't supposed to have. She mentioned he would have would up in prison. She could be full of it, but it makes some sense that a person living in this community who knows how harsh the punishments are and is brainwashed into believing the whole shebang would do something impulsive and reckless like that. I'm of course not justifying the punishment, but "just" stealing a candle we are thinking about in our frame of reference. In a society where there isn't mass production and everything has to be made through painstaking process and time and with limiteed resources, stealing something is a bigger deal. It remins of an example from the middle ages where someone was jailed for stealing a bucket. Now we may think "oh, it;s just a bucket." But for those medieval people, if your bucket gets stolen, you can't just get another one. A bucket might cost you months of "salary" or be a hand me down or have taken days to make. This was a time when most people owned one par of shoes (if any) and on average, two very dirty uncomfortable shirts. If someone steals one of your shirts, you can't just get another one. So while i absolutely despise the cult, how big a deal "stealing something" is is really relative to the "wealth" of the time, and we live in a historically unprecedented age where there's so much stuff around that the idea of a severe punishment for stealing a small item correctly strikes as absolutelt absurd.

well, since Miles enlisted not as an engineer but as essentially a soldier for the Cardassian war, he wasn't really "put" in a life or death situation, he volunteered to go into a life or death situation, because he was signing up not as a starfleet officer but as a soldier in a war. It's perhaps pedantic, but it says something interesting about Miles. I wonder how many civilians on Earth would enlist specifically for the purpose of fighting in a war. I'm not surprised by him being able to get the jump on the son. The son has no real military training, just knows how to shoot a bow and arrow, where O'Brien is a combat veteran. The whole "you never know what you're capable of till you have to" has a deeper resonance then just the lore. It's the woman's message, that being forced to survive without technology humans discover some innate capabilities they didn't realize they had. But then O'Brien shows that even without technology, he's able to rig a solution, and in a life or death situation, yes, he's able to get up that tree in a hurry. I think absolutely that lore drop was important themetically for the episode. And it shows that Chief, despite what Cult Lady says, is capable of doing things and exceeding his limits when he has to without or without technology. You guys noticed the wall of writers, so my guess is there were probably different sentiments going on here and some writers wanted to make her at least sort of relatable while others were like, no she's an evil bitch.

I think the children and the box in the foreground was a choice by the director to contradict the "we got a community" posiitve note about it, because we are reminded of the children that don't have a choice, the children that died, the children who maybe had a longing for something better, and the box which was what "made" the community what it was. A visual reminder contradicting the dialogue we just heard that there was a very dark side to this community (or as I see it, all darkside)

In terms of the complaint that it seems like the woman and it is- this isn't a mystery story. It's made very obvious from early on that she was responsible for this. We don't know the exact details.... but it's just not a mystery. It's a story about a cult and Sisko (and O'Brien) versus this women who wants to break them down. The complaint of "well it's obvious"... I mean, basically you're wanting a different epsiode from what this is. That's not a flaw with the episode. We're never supposed to think anything other then that she is the villian. It's about how cults work. Whic I don't think is something we've seen yet in trek. As I stated emphatically elsewhere, the real problem is suggesting that there's any value at all to this community. Sure, a nature commune might have some good points- but this isn't that. I mean it's that, but it's an authoritarian cult where this woman has brainwashed these people and subject them to all kinds of manipulation including torture to get them to fall in line. Indepent thought is not allowed. Saying "well, we have this community..." it would be like a bunch of cult members saying "well, yeah, the cult leader was lying to us and manipulating us and abusing us... but they did give us this cult that we're happy to be in!... Because we literally had no choice. If we weren't "happy" with being in the cult, we'd be manipulated and ostracized and pressured and coerced and tortured till we did like it. As I said, the showrunners admit that was a flaw with the episode. She talks about "discovering your core identities... but they aren't their core identities. It's what she made them into which is mindless worker drones. "You would have been an engineer isntead of what you've become." yeah, an engineer is something to be proud of. Being a brainwashed manual laborer, it's what SHE wanted them to become, but we're never shown that this "community" has any value other then because she says it does and because they say it does... but again they didn't have the option to think anything else. And certainly, if someone did manage to hold out long term, she would have eventually just killed them, which I'm sure she has. Whether through excessive time in the box or poisons.And she would say "oh, you don't know how I greived, but it was all for THE COMMUNITY. Aka my cult. I'm sorry to be redundant, but I guess this episode is very effective in getting me worked up in that I absolutely fucking hate this women. So much so that I find myself almost angry that anyone would even try to justify this in any way or suggest there's any value at all to her "community" because I feel like it's falling for and justifying her bullshit. Yes, in a different situation which was not shown in this episode, there could be something interesting about people from a technological utopia who choose to live without technology. But I strongly feel like that argument is a projection from our real world times, not true to the reality of the show. And again, whatever merits that may have or make for an interesting premise, that is NOT what we got here. The "back to nature" aspect is fundamentally a part of her philosophy, and it can't be separated from that context. What we actually have isn't an interesting debate, but an evil cult, and trying to call it anything other then that just confuses the issue and justifies this women's nonsense. I think my feeling here is similar to the way Alex (or Josh I can never remember who is who) feels about Vedek Winn. Just a total intolerance for that kind of religious bs. And this is very much a religion. It's the same feeling I have about puritans or the Taliban. But yeah, this episode was what it was and it doesn't seem to make sense to me (or make sense as a general criticism) that the episode wasn't what you wanted, which was a totally differnt premise. I feel like you kind of have to judge an episode on it's own terms, not "well I would have preferred if they had gone for something totally different>"

This one is a B for me. It has some flaws, but it's a solid episode. I do agree that Joseph could have chosen to stay without defending Alixus and what she did. Could have had him ask for a few things like, I don't know, proper medical supplies. Also wish O'Brien had interrupted and said he destroyed the device as soon as his phaser was working again. After all if someone circled back and turned it back on, all his tech would be useless again. I don't really have to break down why Alixus is such a comtemptable cult leader. That much is obvious. But I will add that the way she speaks, with those constant voice cracks, just really gets under my skin. I mean props to the actress for making the audience hate the character so much. I don't know if the episode is really sending an anti technology message when it portrays people as needing to be tricked into joining a cult and punished when they don't play by the rules. Not to mention the people who died. Bottom line I don't think many people walk away from this episode feeling like they'd prefer to live in that colony as opposed to DS9 or the Enterprise. Again the ending kind of derails that a bit, but after 10 years I understand people not wanting to uproot again. Still should have been a few who wanted to leave.

I think Sisko made the smart decision in the moment to just leave without anyone else from the village. Getting everyone to leave immediately wasn't necessary, and they can send professionals down at a later time to "deprogram" if that's what they decide to do, or the village can take time to consider what to do and may decide to open back up to using technology for medicine, to survive the winter, etc. At the very least, the Federation now knows about them and they know they can leave any time, and that changes everything.

The kids at the end literally saw 4 people turn into sparkling light and disappear. They have never seen any technology, much less a transporter operate.

I like this episode. I think it might have been better as a two-parter, honestly. Everything seemed kind of rushed. I'd give it a solid 'B.'

I realize now at the end I may have taken Joseph's comment for granted, assuming when the community met afterwards, individuals would have discussed if they wanted to stay or leave as well. That's how I always pictured their group moving forward. I think the writers should have added that line to Joseph's speech at the end - we'll have to decide who wants to stay and if we leave the device on or turn it off. I think just adding that small phrase works because of Joseph's nature and how he helped O'Brien. But even without it, this has always been my headcanon. For me this ep is an enjoyable C.

So this is a good episode, but we run into the problem of a villian who is just so vile and unpleasnt, she's not fun to watch because she makes your skin crawl. I take major issue with the ending. Sisko acts like these people can just freely choose to continue living the way they were. First off, they can't, because they were in an authoritarian cult. Secondly, I don't think this is a case where we can really "respect the wishes" of these peoples since they've clearly been subject to every brainwashing technique there is, including torture and the threat of death (I can't believe there haven't been people who were sent back to the box repeatedly and didn't die.) Also, what does "maintaining this community" look like? Are they still going to use torture, let people die from preventable diseases? They should have sent a ship for all of them and they should have undergone heavy duty psychological help. These aren't people making free choices, these are victims of the scariest kind of monster, the true believer who wil do anything "for the cause." Every thing about her cult rings false, When she says to the engineer- "look at what you've become. You would have been an engineer. Now, you're a... subsistence farmer in a cult." Subsistence farming isn't fun. It sucks. I mean, she's insane, but her point rings especially hollow. She talks like everyone is in starfleet. Most people don't spend their lives in artifical gravity and air, they live on planets. Yes, I'm sure their lives have been very affecetd by technology, But guess what? That technology has created a post-scarcity environment. It's literally a paradise. Furthermore, if people wanted to live in a naturalistic commune, they can do that (plenty of colonies) But they don't have to cut themselves off from the world entirely. They can do that, and still be able to use medical technology when there other methods don't work. Also, and this is KEY- You can live in a naturalistic commune without needing it be run by a megalomaniacal lunatic who needs to control every aspect of people's lives and force them to believe in her weird philosphy about "core behaviors" or whatever. You can live in a naturalistic community without needing everyone to think and act the exact same way, and have zero tolerance for any dissent, and resort to torture and gaslighting to agree with "the right way." According to Memory Alpha the show runners admitted this was a problem. They wanted to make a show about cults, They made a very effective one. But they admit where they failed. At the end they tried to show some balance, but they admit they didn't go a good job of it. That's because there is no balance. They've spent the whole episode establishing this is a cult run by an evil meglomaniac. They did not make any case for "the community", why people would want to stay there other being brainwashed, or why they should even be allowed to stay there. The actress was great. I have never had such a visceral reaction of hatred and disgust to a character like this. Even as a kid watching this, I felt like "this person is the worst thing imaginable and needs to die." Dukat is a slimy villian, but he's an entertaining villain. This women was an effective villian in making me absolutely despire her. So it's "good." But.. if I absolutely hate seeing or spending any time with a character, does that make it good tv? I loved the Sisko was not buying it for one second. The Emissary sees a false prophet for what they are. It was an important episode for Sisko in establishing his toughness and force of will. I do wonder how Picard would have handled the situation. I made this comment before watchig the video, so maybe the guys addressed some of these points. On a last note- lord, I HATE that woman. It's not a thing I usually feel where I feel "this person NEEDS to die." I have the same sort of visceral reaction towards her that people generally have for child molestors. She is just the absolute scum of the earth. She's Big Brother, The Taliban, Nurse Ratchet rolled into one. I hope Sisko just beams her into space and says "here, survive without any technology or victims to brainwash."

So, I will comment that the lore drop O'brien gives about not realizing his talents until he was dropped into the awful situation of Setlik III and the Cardassian border wars tied directly into Alixus philosophy of dropping people into a harsh situation so they could discover talents they otherwise wouldn't. She's still a grating manipulative, extremeist pos though.

Congrats Cleveland in the Playoffs!

One thing I never liked about the ending of this episode is that the writers portray the colonists' perspective through a real-world lens, rather than within the logic of Star Trek's future. Humans achieved a utopia in Trek largely because of technology. Through replicators, transporters, and warp engines, humanity expanded the bounds of what they could achieve. It is the driving force for humanity's cultural evolution. So different from what so much other science fiction posits, where technology is largely a destructive force. There is nothing Alixus' colony did that these people couldn't have had on the thousands of other colonies in the Federation. These people weren't boxed in (excuse the pun) to living any particular life within the Federation. That one dude wouldn't be in prison because he would have no need to steal. Picard's brother was able to happily live his life as an 18th century French vintner directly on Earth, regardless of the practicality or viability of such a profession in the future. Today, his land would have been repossessed as operating a winery in such a primitive fashion wouldn't produce enough income. But in the 24th century, what should have been a hobby for a rich retiree was instead his entire life. While it's probably best not to over-analyze the ins and outs of the future Trek envisions, Alixus' vision should be treated like sheer lunacy within that universe, in spite of the appeal it might have within our real world. Because in the Federation, there is no need to seek paradise; it already exists.

There are plenty of episodes with cult-like themes, fortunately the best ones are in my opinion in DS9. But the ones you guys have already seen are episodes like From The Original Series: "A Taste of Armageddon" "The Return of the Archons" "The Apple" "And the Children Shall Lead" (This episode is very reminiscent of Lord of the Flies) "The Way to Eden" "For the World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky" From The Next Generation "Haven" "Descent, Parts 1 & 2" "Masterpiece Society" "Who Watches the Watchers"

I really like the idea of a group of people who want to rediscover themselves through giving up technology, but that concept gets overshadowed by the cult-ishness of it, and the leader stranding them there without their knowledge. Also, the crime being so minor for the level of punishment sort of makes those people seem ignorant of reality, which is suppose happens in a cult, but the writers could have put more on screen about how the other people would be starting to wake up to the truth at the end of the episode of how they were deceived, and unfairly treated.

Space Karen: "I did it for The Rock. i did it for the community."

Solid B-tier for me, I agree with Josh that the ending fell a bit flat because of everyone wanting to stay, the engineer deciding to isn't that surprising, he was a good empathetic person but still valued the community they built. But I do think there'd be a few people who'd want to leave. Definitely Sisko's best moment so far (this or his interaction with Kira in Progress).

The most stereotypical Southern white woman forcing a black man to work in the field and torturing him for disobeying her has to have been an intentional decision by the writers.

Ok, I gotta bug Josh a bit about his comment about medicines from nature. You do know that the majority of all pharmaceuticals come from nature, right? Just Google “how many pharmasceuticals come from nature”. You kind of sounded like the people who say “hunting an animal for meat is cruel when you can just buy meat from the grocery store” 😂

So the Chief not only is 'the hero of Sedlik III' he basically started his engineering career there. No wonder one of the Cardassians in 'The Wounded' calls their infamous attack on Setlik III 'a terrible mistake'.

Maybe the adults didn’t all decide to stay… some of them might have just gone inside to get their stuff.

Read the story about the first real Thanksgiving. A hard lesson to learn for collectivists.

Sisko didn’t pretend to join the cult because he can’t bluff.

It is cult. That woman manipulated them 10 years. It is very nasty.

Lord of the Flies I think is the book :)

An interesting thing about Lord of the Flies. That book was written to show that if people get stranded together, we'll revert back to savagery trying to survive. But a real event happened just like that in real life in 1965, refered to as "The Children of Ata" and that's not what happened at all. They didn't become Lord of the Flies. Instead, human nature won out in a good way. I'll just paste a summary from google: "Children of Ata" refers to a real-life shipwreck story of six Tongan boys in 1965 who survived on a deserted island for 15 months through cooperation and community-building, acting as a contrast to the fictional "Lord of the Flies," where a group of British schoolboys descends into chaos and violence due to a lack of societal structure. While Lord of the Flies suggests humanity's inherent savagery, the boys of Ata demonstrated resilience, ingenuity, and solidarity by establishing a functional commune with a food garden, rainwater storage, and even a gymnasium and badminton court.

Me, multiple times at the episode while watching the reaction: "Shut the F$^# UP!" To the warble voiced, grating, sneer faced woman.

have they figured out how to make booze on the planet from the new exotic fruits? thats the first thing i would do if stranded there

I've always like this episode because it's a sisko defining moment with alot more to come

I also give this a low... C

I like this episode quite a bit, though like many, I find the ending a bit of a let down. Like they wrote the whole episode but couldn't figure out how to end it. Still, this is one of the Season 2 episodes that I recorded my first time through because I thought the premise was interesting, and I have always enjoyed it. Probably more than it deserved. I was expecting both of them to give it a C rating, while I personally enjoy it enough to put it... high B or low A. Probably when it rolls around to the patron tier list, I'll give it an A. I also agree that it ought to be a rule to leave at least one person aboard a runabout at all times for exactly these kinds of situations. I'm also not sure how Aluxis (or however you spell her name) or her son got up to the shuttle to route it into the sun... and how they could have missed the sun. Did they have a portable transporter hidden in the jungle out there as well? But despite some plot holes like that and a bit of a "meh" ending, I do like the episode. (I know I wouldn't fit into a society without technology. I like my creature comforts just a bit too much.)

I really like this episode, mainly because I enjoy watching people fight the system, in whatever context, so Sisko defying Alixus was great. I do agree though that the ending really bugged me as well; I don't like the idea of Alixus being validated by Joseph after what she did. Also I like the contrast of Dax solving the problem of retrieving the runabout using technology while O'Brien finds the source of the field without any technology. Regardless of what tech is or is not available, you can still be creative and solve problems.

I feel like Picard's moment in Chain of Command and Sisko's moment here are two very different things. Picard's will was representative of the will of the Federation in a battle against the will of the Cardassian empire. He could not allow himself to lose because of the higher implications of what losing meant. This by no means diminishes Picard's feat, but it's different from what we're supposed to see in Sisko here. This was a *personal* battle between two leaders. Sisko folding would, ultimately, be meaningless to anyone *but* Sisko. And that's what you're supposed to take from this. Sisko is a proud man, we see that here and we see that in Q-Less. And that's not a trait you see often in characters meant to be heroic in modern storytelling. A lot of Sisko's very best traits are the ones that set him apart from other Starfleet captains and that would make him the villain of other Star Trek episodes.

I don't think they understood Josh T.'s Patron Take. Look at "This Side of Paradise", the message is the complete polar opposite of "Paradise". After Sandoval is liberated, he's horrified when he realizes they "achieved nothing here". And Kirk tells him in no uncertain terms that "Man stagnates if he has no ambition..." After Joseph is liberated, he just shrugs and tries to justify the actions of the criminal who brainwashed him. And Sisko accepts that and leaves without saying anything. I like the episode, but the ending stinks. It's almost as if the writers secretly like this kind of society and want to reward cultish behaviour.

Solid episode, but whenever the crew beam down, there should always be a crewman left behind on the runabout for just this kind of situation, instead of completely relying on the computer.

For me similar to Alex i give this a C. There are definitely things i like about it which you brought up in the discussion, just in general it's not one of my favourite type of episodes. Also i missed not seeing half of the main cast even in a short throwaway scene. In general i love Season 2, i don't rank any of the episodes below C, but this is one of my least favourites.

Thinking about it I fall in the middle of you guys. Solid B for me.

This episode really pissed me off last time. I watched it like this chick just forces these laws on strangers, Basically.. I’d be like OK, I’m gonna go stand outside your community and you can fuck off!

I wear a slimming undershirt that is gray like the DS9 dickie..

#TeamJosh this episode rocks, lol.

Basic concept, decent execution with Trek babble sprinkled in for the explanation but no thought for the law abiding universe or future implications. Everyone would still get relocated or put in a Starfleet prison for a stint due to allowing what happened with Benjamin. You can't just "crash land" on a planet in the Alpha quadrant and get to keep it for your tiny colony of 20 some humans. Alixis is a shoo-in for a narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis and only had cognitive behavioral empathy when she wanted to. Ruler of her own little fascist paradise.

I actually really dig how DIFFERENT the two of you are in your ratings of this episode. Cuz I've always felt that it was pretty divisive. I'm glad that there's some more respect for Sisko. Also, is Alex okay? He looks like he just won a fight against a honey badger.

Ensign Szu from the Arsenal of Freedom tries to bang Sisko. 🤷‍♂️ Also David Souls wife.

I believe the kids are looking at the crew that just transported, which they had never seen before.

Lord of the Flies!

A far from perfect episode, but I think some really powerful moments lift it higher. I liked Sisko's refusal to shed the uniform and his passive resistance. Some nice set pieces too.

Have you noticed how Sisko seems to be one of the least used characters in this series compared to the others? I don't think he's gotten as much screen time as most if not all of the other actors, and rarely has he had the story focus on him. Quite a bit different from the previous Starfleet commanders we've seen.

I like joseph's speech. A cult getting exposed or losing its leader rarely kills it. What we see at the end is a new leader taking Alixis's place, which i think is a realistically grim ending.

Yeah, this one kind of sucks, imo. Low C, maybe even D for me. I'm with Alex - decent concept but I thought the execution was bad, as was the actress playing Alexis.

Yeah always liked this one there’s some lovely scenes dropping lore in a casual way. Alixus is a good villain

Listening to you guys trying to predict this episode is absolutely hilarious!!!!!!

That woman's voice has been burned into my brain for 30 years. "tHe CoMmUnItY..."

I really liked this one! Alixus is a really awful person - like her ideas about living closer to the land aren't inherently bad but her methods of basically kidnapping a whole ship's worth of people to settle a planet on her own ideals is dogshit. Also, good Chief lore and Sisko being a great commander! BUT ALSO, I think she had a really wrong assessment of humanity with the technology. Unlike in our present day where things like LLM AIs and other conveniences are often making people "check out", in Trek its really used so most people are able to better their lives - learning more, finding careers in life that interest them, etc. When she said the one woman would have been a clerk working all day in an office, like, who cares? She might have also had lots of interesting hobbies or done other things that makes her life fulfilled.

Of course Alixis screwed up trying to destroy the runabout. Neither she nor her son could be trusted to properly handle technology!

This may just be a personal preference but I hated this episode. I forget her name, but she was so insufferable there was zero enjoyment for me. I watched this once on my first binge and skipped it ever since.

I despised this episode on a rewatch the other night. It'll be interesting to see how you guys react.

I think it's also circumstantial when they decide to end on the scene. The last two scenes of the last two episodes didn't take place near the station, and they weren't about to end on a wide shot of the planet they never shown in previous establishing shots.

Couldn't stand Alexis. I have a thing against manipulative caresmatic cult leaders.

"Whose watching Ops?" "Bob."

You know its a convenient Trek plot when your "search for new planets to colonize" is for some reason being carried out by the station commander and an engineer.

Great ep. Very powerful imagery in this one.

The book you don't remember the name of is Lord of the Flies.

First!