UNCUT - Sub Rosa (TNG S7E14) | Star Trek Journey 304
Comments (148)
It's a ridiculous episode but there's plenty of episodes I hate more than this. Fog on the bridge should happen more.
Its terrible, but I love it for some reason. Its so bad in almost every way, but also hilarious. It deserves it reputation, but Im glad it exists for the laughs alone.
Every other "E" just got elevated to a "D" to make room for this one...
Star Trek: Romantasy. Beverly's gonna have to face it, she's addicted to love. Well, Ronin's time was limited, the line of Howard women apparently ends with Beverly.
I would like to have passed this off as a Halloween special, but it aired in January
This episode feels like a stage play. I almost expected Riker to tear apart the cottage at the end.
The thing I hate most about this episode is the dumb Groundskeeper Willie cosplay version of Scotland that these colonists somehow created 400 hundreds years in the future based on 19th and 20th century American stereotypes about mediaeval Scotland.
I do not have that much problem with the theme park Scotland colony. After all, French is supposedly a nearly dead language in the 24th Century. It makes some sense that a lot of authentic culture has been lost.
man i've been waiting for this one
This back half of S7 is so mixed there’s a few more good eps but a lot more meh
Dunuh light that Caandle
BLAZIN' BEV!
F'ing Jean Luc busting in on Bev and her candle:)
And then stopping to watch...
and Gates Mcfadden's acting in this is terrible too she it really was lifetime level crap
Hmmm. I thought the acting was one of the few highlights of this terrible episode!
And there's a worse epiode yet to come
"Worse" is pretty subjective. I think this here is the worst episode of TNG, because it's so weird and sexually overt and out of character for most everyone. Other clunkers are soon to come, but they're boring or scientifically preposterous (yes, more preposterous than an ordinary-looking candle being a plasma flame!).
"Ned" - "Get in my Belley" "I Eat Baby's" god this ep sucked
Christ guys, this episode was utter shit! I'm glad that you got something out of it, but man, this would have been an awful TOS episode!
"Of all the E Tier Episodes I have encountered in my travels, this was the most... Ronin."
I appreciate this episode more. I still think its shit, and kinda embarrassing to behold, but it helps to take it less seriously.
I'm the only carrier I know of my particular Y chromosome, and I'm okay letting that not pass on. I have a slightly unusual last name, my partner has a very common one, and I kind of want to take his if and when the marriage time comes. (I looked into it, I wanted to change my middle name too, but unlike the marriage name change, middle name is the full complex name change form. Would be so much more rational to let one do it all at once.)
The whole uncomfortable thing is misplaced. Women loved Fifty Shades Of Gray to the point it saved the book chain Barnes & Noble. Women, like men, like weird shit, and if this type of stuff doesn't make them uncomfortable there is no reason to feel uncomfortable on their behalf.
I remember hating this episode and haven't watched it for decades. Now watching with you it wasn't half bad. It's still silly and non-plausable, but it's fun!
This is in my top 10 most enjoyable episodes and Id sooner watch this than watching people crying while they play a flute, talk endlessly about honor or learn a lesson after some wise words from dad.
Ohhhhh.... the episode where Crusher f**** a ghost!
Dude, I'll be that guy. This episode was so freaking enjoyable. I don't remember watching it in the past, although I do remember reading at some point that this is evidently one of the worst episodes on TNG. It probably was. It's a terrible episode, but I honestly don't care. It's just so much stupid fun. And some Beverly lore too. This episode is both an S tier and an E tier at the same time.
I re-watched it for the first time in probably 20 years last night after listening to their episode discussion and I love it now. It's just so much fun.
This is such an "E" ! E for Excruciating!!
2:20 "Old Flame?" OMFG I just about died right there. ROTFL!!!
That's so perfect I am absolutely furious I didn't catch it myself.
been waiting 7 seasons for you to get here.
Regarding the "Television Story By" credit. This was due to a change in WGA rules. It's functionally the same as "Story By", but is more specific in that it's a TV story as opposed to a motion picture story. The WGA wanted those credits to be distinct from each other.
Yes! My favorite bad episode!
The real 🥇 "So bad it's cringy!" winner.
yeah that was an episode alright. i always saw it as bored housewife smut fantasy. as far as worst episodes... i think it has the lowest IMDB rating of the TNG episodes.
I just read that the Nacelle toy company were originally going to release a Beverly in black ops gear action figure from "Chain of Command", but Gates McFadden suggested a "Sub Rosa" figure and recorded a video endorsing it.
This episode is batshit crazy. The script is unalvageable. I don't know what happened to Jeri Taylor. That said, over the years I've grown to appreciate crazy episodes while my tolerance level for dull, boring episodes has gone way down. The script here means this episode could not ever be great, however I appreciate that Frakes, McFadden and the production design team really tried to make the gothic horror vibe work. And I like that the actor playing the ghost villain character is definitely creepy enough to sell it. I enjoyed watching along with you two. Alex, your WTF/uncomfortable face is probably exactly what I look like when I watch this. This time, however, I found the episode and your reactions to it to be so funny. I legit laughed several times. Edited to add: I now have this ranked only the 5th or 6th worst episode in Season 7! I am ranking it above all the really boring episodes like "Interface" and "Liaisons" and the annoying "Force of Nature". And at least one more episode coming up, possibly two.
yeah my vote for the worst episode of tng is coming up, yes worse than Code of Honor IMHO
Beverly mentions the candle has *always* been lit and all the Howard women have had green eyes. This definitely means the women of the Howard family have been perpetually possessed by Ronin! Alex was paying more attention :-) Also goof from Brannon too, it would be 700 years not 800 years.
Hey, when you're orgasmically stumbling through your dead grandma's house, math can be a little difficult
Revisiting the series through YT channels, made me see Beverly as a woman instead of someone’s mom. I don’t think I have a favorite Beverly episode but I appreciate Gates McFadden a whole lot more. And that goes to all the Trek ladies. Some of the BTS stories of what they’ve put up with is truly outrageous.
I knew I shouldn't have buried the lede of calling Ronin a Candle Fuck Ghost so deep in my take.
Alex: Who's that? Old flame? Me: 👀 You could say that
Devil's Due is a great parallel to this one, I do enjoy DD more simply thanks to the performance of the guest actress playing Ardra, Marta Dubois, was so whimsical in her performance. A treat to watch. In this one, Ronin played by Duncan Regehr, gave a decent performance, but more in line with the flow of the episode, he didn't steal the show. By the way, have you guys seen Supernatural? Given how much you both love horror vibes, while it's not full-on Event Horizon, it's awesome. I could see it now, a decade in the future when you've completed your Star Trek, Stargate, Babylon 5, Orville and X-files marathon, finally reaching Supernatural.
The only TNG episode I’ve only watched once - now twice thanks to you guys. Is it terrible? Probably. Star Trek does a bodice ripper was never something I thought I’d see when it first aired. I likely haven’t felt like watching it again until now because of a couple of experiences interviewing Gates McFadden. When I worked for Canada’s SPACE Channel I was able to interview every cast member with the exception of Wil Wheaton. All were great except, unfortunately, Gates. Both times she was cold and stand-offish. Maybe she was having a bad day (both times?) but it was always uncomfortable. All the other cast members were consistently warm and friendly - and the best interviews were always Frakes and Sirtis. They’re absolutely hilarious!
I miss the Spacey awards. They were fun back in the day.
God i might just skip, nah i gotta do it, this isn't the seasons worst , but its dmn close, there's an upcoming dta ep thts the worst of the series
Just speculating, but I have to wonder if this episode was not originally received as well and has left a bad taste because of a particular culture at the time and the audience demographic. I think like many people, I enjoyed watching this episode now as an adult than I did as a 90's kid and being a teenager in the early 2000's. Also Josh, you said it's not a banger.... um, I think it's literally a "banger".
Porking a ghost is not porking or banging!
About 15 years ago I used to hang out in the forums on the Digital Spy website. Apparently some time before I got there, someone had posted a thread called “I think Star Trek should be more about ghosts.” Years later, that person and topic remained a bit of a punchline (at least on the Doctor Who forum where I spent time). Anyway, I think Star Trek has been about ghosts quite as much as it needs to be.
oh yeah i used to post there years back until they closed the general discussion forum for good which basically caused most to abondon the site
It's the "rapey" drug withdrawal vibes that most people find unsettling. Also it's just a wacky episode. For the tier listing, may I suggest a new category "G" -- Ghost F*ker -- with this episode as the sole entry :)
It took me a while (years) to figure out, but it's Picard busting into Bev's gran's house and finding Beverly all sprawled out wriggling in ecstasy, likely dribbling all over the floor, and then him stopping and standing there to watch the most unsettling.
Speaking for myself this episode didn't change my opinion of Beverly. Remember Me has always been in my favourite 5 episodes. About a decade ago i met Gates at a convention too and she was really nice, even though personally i got on even better with Marina because we have a similar dark sense of humour...which i will tell you about in a few months, i can't right now.
The next 2 episodes are just friggin great
My favourite of both Seasons next for DS9 amd TNG.
This episode makes me deeply uncomfortable. I guess I'm the outlier if women tend to love this episode. But even so, I can totally respect your take on it and even agree with it a little.
I will say this for it Josh...oh god i'm defending the bloody episode even more now. My biggest love is horror films, so obviously I love that side of it. It just seems weird that something like this could have affected her family for centuries, if her grandmother had brought her up how could she have not caught on when she was younger. What was meant to happen when she died, was it going to turn gay and start fucking Wesley😂😂😂 Feel free to tell Alex i asked that it might amuse him as much as it did me.
As a fellow horror fan, and a defender of this episode, I am noticing a trend that horror fans are much more forgiving with this eppie. :)
What worries me is for years i've regarded this as my least favourite TNG. After seeing it with you guys, and last month on Jen Murray's patreon i've been enjoying it more each time...one day instead of giving it E i'll end up saying it's a B if i watch it enough times, it's like Stockholm Syndrome😂😂😂 . I really have loved especially the scenes with Deanna and Beverly in this.
If you can forgive Picard barging into Beverly's house and watching her orgasm and still give this anything other than an "E"... I'm flabbergasted.
Alex fucking nailed this episode immediately again - “who’s that, an old flame?”
I think Ronin is native to that planet and his story of being from earth in the 17th century is made up. They did say the planet was the first successful terraforming project so humans have been there a couple of centuries. The candle is plasma-based, something that wouldn’t exist on earth now, let alone the 17th century. So, among the original colonists from Scotland on this planet was an ancestor of Beverly. Ronin discovered she was compatible with him and he could reside in her plasma candle.
Good catch
Living through it I clearly remember how porn obsessed the 90s were. Not sex. That was the 70s. This kind of porn was very glossy, stylish - and fake. There even was a fashion movement called Porn Chic.
90s where porn obsessed? Umm hello try 2025
You should go hear Gates talk about this with Kate Mulgrew on her podcast, InvestiGates. Gates said that she thought it was insane but didn’t want to insult Jeri who had wanted to write for her. She has just learned to laugh at it as fans keep bringing it up. Kate Mulgrew was in a state of disbelief/bemusement
IRL at the time, people forget that Anne Rice’ Mayfair Witches books had just come out and had a similar premise. So similar that some people thought that Jeri plagiarized. Also, many fans see this as a rapist/drug abuse story.
I’ve always thought that this is why Beverly has a feeling of when Time discrepancies occur ala ‘Cause and Effect’ AND why Wesley has space phasing potential. A bloodline infused with anaphasic energy.
These dress uniforms replaced the longer ones we saw earlier in the series.
We all learned the original meaning of being “ghosted” in 1994…
I must really like you guys to want to put myself through watching this episode again.
😱 👻 EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Even though this is a clear E from me. I hate to admit the last few times i've watched it i 've loved more and more about it.
Some of the acting is really good. The sets are nice. The rest is dumb and silly and worse than fan fic!
You guys need to avoid youtube comments. People give zero shits about spoiling things for people and that kind of sucks. On another note I never noticed before that the tombs behind the ghost were McFly and Vader. This one is one we all love to joke about but watching it again this episode was really well done from a production standpoint. The look of this colony was really good. Frakes and the production people really elevated this one.
The Scottish caretaker is my hero. I bet he enjoyed his whiskey
Ghost bro gave an old lady an orgasm and got killed for it.
As a '90s kid Star Wars fan, it makes me sad that people now remember the end of ROTJ with that stupid 'no. noooo!' line from Vader having been added in 20+ years after the fact. Ugh. Anyway, I don't hate this episode, despite how weird it is.
The thumbnail lets me know this is gonna be good.
"Old flame?" Me: Well actually....yeah.
How I understood it, was the 'spirit' being moved from host to host, needing them and the lit plasma candle to survive. So Dr Crusher's Nana met the spirit when a previous host passed away.
If for no other reason, I was looking forward to this one because I knew it would get some unique reactions. Josh's eyes when Crusher called it a "family tradition", the uncomfortable looks throughout, or the whole bit about Ronin getting it on with Picard next. When Alex mentioned Picard reacting the same way as in Chain of Command, I was thinking exactly the same thing. "Yo..you...cannot......make me...nut" And I'll agree with the consensus, Ally had the best patron take. Bravo. But yeah, this is definitely "so bad it's good" for me. Yeah it doesn't put me to sleep like Imaginary Friend, but it also reads like a TNG fanfic off literotica or something. It IS entertaining in it's absurdity, but it's still a terrible episode. And sure, I get that being preferable to a boring C tier full of technobabble, but that's not the only alternative. Lots of Trek's best may include technology/science, but don't really rely on them and could tell the same story in other genres. The Drumhead, The Defector, The Wounded, etc.. could be told in non scifi settings just as well, so I'm all for those very human stories about personal trauma or episodes about civil liberties or holding true to principles. That's where Trek shines. Not "I banged my grandma's ghost boyfriend". D for "dinna light that candle"
I'm really glad that you guys liked this better than most did. There really is a lot to like about it. It's just those cringy O-face scenes that basically ruin it. You have to remember that at the time this episode came out, those scenes were a lot more than what many people were used to seeing on television, especially since many TNG viewers at the time were younger, or even families. Can you imagine watching this with your parents, while just starting to go through puberty and not even fully understanding all of the implications, but just knowing the whole thing made you feel weirdly dirty, and your parents weirdly nauseated? And then later as an adult, all I can think of when I watch this is how uncomfortable Gates must have been filming those scenes. I just felt too bad for her to be able to enjoy the rest of the episode. But it's not fair to judge the entire episode only on those cringey scenes.
> "But it's not fair to judge the entire episode only on those cringey scenes." Disagree vehemently. I think "Code of Honor" is fine, but plenty of people believe its few "cringy scenes" completely ruin it. I don't believe "Code of Honor" is cringy, but this sure is.
This was more enjoyable watching it with you two and seeing you both make notes of things you liked or noticed, the camera work, etc. I'd never noticed before that Gates botched a line: instead of "weather control system" she says "weather systems control," which makes enough sense that it's hard to catch but still definitely wrong.
Reminds me of The Lights of Zetar TOS S0318 - but with sex and candles. 🕯😆
One thing I noticed on a rewatch... have you noticed how good looking this episode is? I particularly love the whole sequence with the green lightning flashing everywhere... pure cinematic eye candy!
i also liked the location shots, the church and inside the house
FYI, the area where I grew up is always 64 degrees. There are no seasons. Monterey Bay area in CA.
This is a definite "E" tier. I see it as a campy, non-canon short story based on TNG. But yes, it should not be canon. I can understand why people would have fun watching it. That doesn't mean it should be taken seriously. Maybe an E+ because it's just so infamous?
But how can it be an E if it's fun, humorous and enjoyable? See, that's why Tier rankings are not valid. Because if something can be so NON Trek, but fun, and enjoyable...then it's def worth something! I know Trek fans that seethe at the mouth because it's "not Trek!" but who cares? lol. It's entertaining. That's my take anyway.
"You're not Nanna! Nanna's dead!!!" Possibly the most ridiculed line in Star Trek history.
It's still a better line than Troi's "I think I found something" in "Descent."
I had a lot of fun writing that take. Thanks for reading it!
Pretty sure those are the same dress uniforms as they’ve had since season three. It might be the first time Beverly and Troi have worn them
"I think we're on an upswing" A jinx so powerful it went back in time 30 years
Yes but they liked it. :)
That guy played Dracula 🧛🏻♂️ in the Monster Squad!
Damn. Can't believe I never put that together and I've watched both way too many times.
Wow, weirdly I remember this episode being *bad* but enjoying it anyway, and watching it years later, I really liked it. Love the Crusher/Howard lore, but just a fine episode, not uniquely terrible. I think back in the day I might not have like magic in my scifi maybe. Not sure. Also... how the hell many other anaphasic relationships are going on on Earth in this universe? I feel like there'd be plenty of people lining up to mainline that dude who's basically orgasmic morphine incarnate.
There is no redeeming Picard barging into Beverly's house and finding her having an orgasm. And he stands there and watches...
I don't think it's an E because it has charm (and Frakes went all in) but I do think it's "so bad, it's good."
You know it's funny, it's one of my go-to episodes because I am SO into so-bad-its good. Have you ever seen GoodBadFlicks on YT? The channel is all about objectively bad horror movies that are amazing...if that makes sense! I think I have many of the same opinions as Josh and Alex because my first love is also a horror backround. The whole So-bad-It's-Good debate is a long one. There's a podcast I used to listen to called Radiodrome. And the hosts would argue all the time. (One of them is actually Cecil from GoodBadFlicks), and while it's MOSTLY a horror podcast, theres a fair share of sci fi as well. And lets just say the other host Josh (not OUR Josh!) didn't agree with the whole so-bad-its-good mindset. I guess the question is: How does one separate subjectivity from objectivity? Some people can't and say "no, if it's bad, its BAD! E-Tier! (I dont agree with this), and some people lean the Hell into it! As I do most of the time with media. That's why an actual rank for this episode is impossible. And that's not a bad thing! On the one hand, I would give this episode a D+ but on the other hand, it's an S. So, I'm not sure! lol. I do like this episode. But I recognize that it's so bad and cringe. But I also love that. The enjoyment one gets out of this episode and others like it is what should matter. :) Oh, and I do unironically love the Victorian gothic horror tropes. The other reason this episode is hated among Trek fans is, they cant STAND the gothic horror elements, but that's why I like it. So, yeah, there's that.
I knew they'd like it. I kinda like it as well but more in a overtly ironic way. They seem to like it a bit ironically but also they seem to just kinda like it. People are gonna lose their minds when they like this more than the next one. Lol Also...it is a rape ghost.
Considering that the show starts us off with an entity as all powerful as Q in this universe, I can't blame Picard at all for not believing in ghosts.
After meeting God wouldn’t you be like ghosts? Ok..
Great reaction. Was worth the wait to see you guys enjoy this. Ally deserves an award for that comment.
I liked Ally's comment the best.
If you approach the episode as a camp horror romp, you can grin and bare it. If you go looking for more unpleasant elements, boy will you find them. One of those moments I can force myself to suspend disbelief for 45 minutes. Nice direction from Frakes.
This will be my first time watching this since it first aired
TNG The sex scoreboard YES IT COUNTS. We at the sex scoreboard do not have a one size fits all way of having sex so there is NO WAY Dr Beverly is not getting a notch for this one. We almost feel like we had sex during this episode. What we want to know is where is the link to the XXX parody of this episode on the internet. Sub Rosa = in secret BUT break it up and it mean “go down love”. That alone would get a score on this list. Riker 14 Troi 6 Picard 4 Dr. Bev 4 NEW +1 Data 2 Geordi 2 Broccoli 2 i Ro 1 Worf 1 Chief/Keiko 1 Extra: Watching this episode makes us at the sex scoreboard want to say: “I’ll be in my bunk”!!!!.
wait when did broccoli f***
I said this during the Live Q&A. This is objectively a 'D' But subjectively it's an 'S' If you enjoy "So bad it's good"...shlocky horror movies like Plan 9 From Outer Space, Sharknado, tons of really cringey 80's slashers, or those AWFUL Dimension/Miramax movies from the late 90's/early 00's, and let's be honest...almost all M. Night movies, especially The Happening...then episodes like this are right up your alley. Yes, this episode sucks, but I adore the suckage! It's so entertainingly bad, and definitely not boring! I would take this crap over a boring Mid (C) episode any day of the week! This episode is the Roger Corman, or Bruno Matai version of Star Trek I crave. It's unintentional comedy and I love it for that.
Spot on
Has to be one of those, "Let's try this weird concept now that the show is on its way out" episodes.
....Jumping the shark.... ....Nuking the fridge.... ....Ghosting the Doctor.....
OK, OK... So for some superficial reasons, as a teenage boy at the time, I found some interest in this one. I will make no further comment.
😂 OMG 😱 guys they said Tuesday?
LOL
I would forcefully argue that Beverley was in fact raped, and that's a big part of why people find it so distasteful - the episode, intentionally or not, is portraying sexual assault as something camp and romantic. What Ronan does could be compared to drugging someone and then taking advantage of them - Beverley's behaviour whenever she's parted with Ronan is very reminiscent of how junkies behave when they're desperate for a fix.
The old lady too… To be fair her grandmother wrote about the affair and was never like “ Wait am I a junkie?”
"Sub Rosa" a.k.a. "Bram Stoker's D...Dude, What the Fuck Did I Just Watch?"
I remember when this was first shown on tv. I didn't hate it, but I was just frustrated and bored with it. We all knew that TNG was coming to an end after we had devoted seven years of our lives to the show, and we were hoping for a whole string of bangers leading to a grand finale. Unfortunately, it was still episodic television, so we still got the random filler episodes here and there.
"random filler" — pun intended??
Both Jeri Taylor and Gates McFadden have said that this was a favorite from this season. Just throwing that out there.
Not Really. Gates on her podcast has said that at the time she thought it was insane but didn’t want to hurt Jeri’s feelings but that now she just goes with the joke because what else can you do?
I've only ever watched this episode once and not sure if I'll ever rewatch it. As a Scottish person, I found it unbearably cringy. James Doohan is the only one who gets to do a bad Scottish accent and get away with it!
It often surprises people that a woman wrote this episode (and another woman had the idea; Bragga just did the teleplay), but the SA-ness was pretty common in the trashy romance novels from the 70s and 80s, which were called "bodice rippers" (the male love interest ripping the female protagonist's bodice). I hate the story and how it tries to soften his abuse and the codependency at the end of the episode I'd have loved an actual romance for her, or where Crusher feels fully negative about the experience and truth of her family line - anything but what they actually did.
A woman also wrote Code of Honor, and Emancipation on sg1, so not hard to believe.
You know, I've come to realize this episode isn't that bad. Definitely not great but, I don't think it's a shit show either.
Agreed. At the end of the day, I had a good time, and surely that is all that matters? I love it when somewhat silly campy material is taken seriously by the director and cast, and played well.
Ah, the worst romance novel ever made
Still a better love story than "Twilight."
It's a testament to how much I enjoy reliving this series with you guys that I just put myself through that episode again... I had promised myself decades ago, never again! LOL
I’ve been looking forward to this reaction. Would love to have been in the writers room for this one. Still think it’s not as bad as Force of Nature tho.
The weather control matrix subplot was definitely giving Force of Nature though.
Josh, I agree with what you’re saying, but there’s also another possibility it. For example my mother didn’t want to take her last name back because she didn’t want her last name to be different from mine.
I think you guys touched on a better format for the story... If this were one of those books with a shirtless guy on the cover kissing Beverly's ear from behind... it would have been a huge hit. Some things are best left to the imagination. Even now, if someone did a book adaptation, I bet it would be good seller.
Close your eyes, take a deep breath. Think back to when you were watching season 6.
It’s finally here The worst episode of Star Trek the next generation ever made And possibly the worst episode of Star Trek in the entire franchise
This is definitely the stupidest and most widely mocked episode of TNG; but it's not the worst. Shades of Grey, Code of Honor, Angel 1 and Up the long ladder are all worse than this. I'm tempted to put Force of Nature and two of the episodes still to come in season 7 below it as well.
Oh, boy
Perfect thumbnail expressions
Season 7, when the shows actors had more input.
Gates didn’t have input on this ep.