UNCUT - Armageddon Game (DS9 S2E13) | Star Trek Journey 303
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DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jadzia 1
I bloody love this one. Still did in the rewatch. I hate coffee personally - At any time of day.
"Freeze the video right here. See there? Captain Sisko, I know my reactors. Alex is drinking out of a clear glass on time stamp 15:32. Alex NEVER drinks from a glass or cup that's clear because he doesn't want's us to know that it's really Fireball in those Sprite Zero cans. Oh, and Josh NEVER wears pink thongs. His thong's are always Command Division Red." - Shatner's Telepath
Am I wrong in thinking that the Federation should now be at war with these 2 aliens? They did try to murder 4 Federation officers after all...
Well, it's not clear how many people were involved with this. It seems less like an "official" act of government as it does a plan by a small conspiracy of people. I think it's safe to assume "in world" the Federation was not happy with them and there definitely some tough diplomatic stances. The Federation only chooses war as a last resort, so if they contacted there government and they refused to prosecute those responsible, the Federation probably has other means of pressuring them like trade embargos or things like that. This type of thing is actually something that comes up a lot in trek criticism that I have a feeling about. For questions where it's.. "wouldn't x have happened?" The answer is yes, it probably did. Not everything that "happens" is shown onscreen. I'm not saying this about you, but it seems like for some who are prone to nitpicking, Trek would have to be tons of tedious exposition to fully explain every detail. That wouldn't actually make it a better show. For something like this, you can assume yes, the Federation followd up and some kind of resolution was released. These types of things are often explored in off-canon sources. Star Trek Online was especially good at this, where it seemed like almost every thing that had happened in the show actually happened in the sense those planets exist and there is a bigger history of what happened with those cases. Think about it- would additional expository dialogue like Sisko saying to someone "Oh, by the way, the Federtion followed up and was assured the conspirators actions were unauthorized, they will be prosecuted and the Federation is satisfied with that. For some completists, sure, maybe they would like that, but i've seen criticism (not here) from the "nitpickers" who seem to take a joy of trying to find any potential whole they can. "Nitpicking" is easy, but I prefer to "fanwank", i.e., if there is something unanswered like that, it's easy enough to imagine a logical explanation for it. And again, because trek was aware at this point of certain obsessive members of the fan base (I mean, the fan base in general is obsessive, but the type of fan who gets furious over the smallest things) while they did realize they had to have continuity that was consistent, they made a deliberate chocie to "not listen" or appease that sort of fan, because they would never be satisifed and it's not like there going to stop watching the show.
I don't think my opinion of Keiko is such an outlier. From wikipedia: "Viewers and critics had mixed reactions to the character. Some criticized her as unlikable and "shrewish",". I would have just called her the ultimate wet blanket.
Keiko deserves that win. I just think that's more important narratively than a cheeky joke.
There have been loads of these plots where someone was thought to be dead… Data, Picard in the nebula before being reconstructed, Picard in Gambit, Geordi and Ro when they are phased and invisible… but they made a better job in this episode. I’ve had enough of them now, especially how easily crews accept that someone’s dead. My biggest criticism is that there are no consequences for them almost executing two starfleet officers and then trying to kill all 4 as well as blowing one of their ships up. Does the Federation ever defend itself?
I continue to be surprised at the stuff y'all tend to rank "S-Tier." Don't get me wrong. I'm super glad y'all liked this episode, and I'm all for it. I just never found this installment particularly flabbergasting, personally. And you know WHY that might BE? It's possible that I see most of early-early DS9 through rose tinted goggles, meaning that so much of the LATER show gets better, and all of this S1/S2 stuff feels like a soft serve to stuff established in my brain, but in duldrum-y slow motion. How's that for optimism? Thanks for all the content as always~
Yes, this episode marks the point where Season 2 finally gets over the mid-season slump. I'm glad you two liked it so much! I actually think almost all the remaining episodes are stronger than this one. Maybe only 1 or 2 of them are weaker. I'm looking forward to seeing how you react to those. In this one, just like you, I like that the "villain" aliens have an understandable reason for wanting to kill everyone. It makes sense that people so traumatized by biological warfare would want to wipe out any knowledge of it. I mean, it is crazy, but living through that kind of war would make people crazy. I also really like the conversations between O'Brien and Bashir. It is nice seeing the Starfleet personnel relate to each other on a personal level, instead of it always being work, work and more work.
I think I heard of a cultural/popular legend that when Genghis Khan died, the people who buried him were murdered and then the people who murdered the people who murdered him were likewise murdered--all to preserve the secret of his body's actual, physical location to this day~
7:30 This is a gun free zone! Didn’t you read the sign?!
What would tip us off the video of you two being dead was fake? Having a discussion about how much you enjoyed Star Trek VI of course, lol.
Yay you finally got here, the slump is over. DS9 back in form. I often miss the window to comment on the ptakes I wanted so badly to scream "Bare with us" as we suffered through those 3,4 bad-mid episodes. I love the O'Brien/Bashir chemistry, its so good, really the performances and this shows delving into the characters is DS9s super strength. Well fellows, I VERY much look forward to rejoining you here on the next DS9 episode.
Well that was a treat, an episode that I've never seen! Somehow missed it every time. The final two TNG episodes I saw for the first time were Booby Trap and.... The Bonding!! (Like a year after TNG was over as opposed to 30ish years.)
I'm glad I'm not alone! I accidentally skipped this when I binged DS9...not sure how so lets blame it on the beer lol. I haven't watched it since nor this reaction because I always want there to be one episode I never seen before. One day....one day. :)
If Alex goes an entire uncut episode not touching his mic, I'll know it's fake AI.
I’m always worried it slipped and isn’t pointed towards my mouth. Leave me alone.
A funny thing about the title echoing the TOS episode "A Taste of Armageddon" is I think the respective titles would actually make more sense if switched. "Armageddon Game" works as the perfect title for a story about a culture that wages war via computer simulations while "A Taste of Armageddon" would fit this DS9 episode better, especially as a little jokey riff on O'Brien's coffee drinking habits
That's a very good observation.
Another excellent episode and bonding moment for Bashir and based Chief. Btw Josh, congrats on 11 years together with your wife. High school sweethearts, early college? Either way, pretty uncommon for that to form and last these days. Nice.
Right after high school. Thanks!
I choose to believe the Kellerun and the T'Lani's heads are shaped like their hair.
What clues would tell me it's a fake? -Josh adjusts in his chair.- "Alright everyone, well we just finished Buffy Season Three. Wow! What a ride! And next week..." -Josh turns to Alex and grins. Alex grins back and then looks into the camera, his excitement, barely contained.- "Next we start Buffy Season Four AND Angel Season One! Come join 'cuz it's going to be fun. And don't forget to check out my last wrestling video where I wrestled as Principal Snyder." Alex nods slowly and thoughtfully, fulling understanding the weight of his last statement.- "Link in the description."
Did someone else direct the intro to this episode?! The first scene was terrible on all accounts, then the intro happened and all of a sudden it was great!
Regarding your comment on three recent episodes pairing O'Brien and Bashir; a big part of writing for an ensemble show (especially a 26 episode one) is figuring out how to write for the characters, and which characters work well with each other. The first season and a half of DS9 was basically that exercise; and they figured out early on that the two work really well together... and that realization will pay dividends going forward.
Yay! Chief episode with ridiculous hair for my birthday 🤩
In an AI video you would skip the DS9 intro
Everyone's insulting 90s TV audiences too much to excuse why they over-explained a scene now and then. There was plenty of TV shows that were "advanced" enough to not write such dumb dialogue. Law & Order, The X-Files, NYPD Blue, etc, were all on the air at the time. I'm sure when I first watched this back in the day I rolled my eyes at that scene.
I can roll past it but damn, this time it's extraordinarily on the nose lol
I'm not accusing you both of amps that go up to 11 (Nigel Tuffnel) with your episode rating scale. You've explained it previously and it makes sense. I only use a 5 tier rating. A 'banger' is a 4 out of 5 for me, not 2 down from a maximum score. This is a 4 for season 2, but a 3 for the overall series standard.
{CinemaSins Voice} "Star Trek character chooses Starfleet over love" cliche {DING!} All kidding aside this was a GREAT episode! I love the Chief/Julian relationship
"You look a little pale." "I'm fine. I'm just Irish."
I agree with you Josh about the thing with Keiko being wrong about the coffee. I’ve been married for 31 years and with my wife for 33 years. We still have moments like that and she knows me better than anyone on the planet and the same with me knowing her.
You guys and your grief fetish... :)
The T’Lani ship was the same model as the ship of the Children of Tama in “Darmok”.
I’d know it was AI if Alex brought up a positive about Star Trek VI.
Ever since your reaction to "Clues" from TNG, every time I see noticeable exposition, my brain cuts to "that's why our beards didn't grow" (the Geordi line). Great episode.
It's weird for a fan like I am, but I completely forgot everything about this episode until this rewatch.
I didn'forget everything but I only remembered the blossoming of the Miles/Julian relationship
Wow. the first part of that opening scene sure makes it look like a boring as hell episode! Weird alien hair, everyone speaking extra dramatically about a weapon we just barely heard about and a group of aliens we don't care about.
Having no reaction at all to ending on the scene would be the give away for me. Yeah, I wouldn't give this an S, or even an A for that matter, but it's a banger, so B+. I've always thought the exposition scene was particularly bad. Especially the whole "but we saw them die", "did we?". After the officer says the other runabout is gone, all she had to say is "we were chasing a decoy" or something. In a basic sense I can understand the idea of why they want everyone with knowledge of how to make the harvesters dead, but OTOH, fuck both of these guys. No good deed goes unpunished I guess. The heart of the episode really is Bashir and O'Brien getting to know one another better. I think there's some genuine respect earned at the end. O'Brien showed Bashir that a relationship doesn't have to be perfect to be worth it, and that setting the bar that high is robbing yourself of something worthwhile in life. In turn he saw that Bashir can actually handle himself quite well in a life and death situation(that isn't medical). Also he saw that Julian isn't quite as shallow as he thought. It was also great seeing the rest of the crew remembering their "dead" friends. Quark's tribute is actually kind of sweet coming from a ferengi. I also agree though that Keiko should have had a stronger reaction to hearing Miles was dead, though I'll probably chalk it up to being denial, and justifiably so in the end. Not knowing her husband drinks coffee in the afternoon is funny though, and not terribly surprising. He probably usually drinks his afternoon coffees at work so she never sees it. Also they've only been married like 3 years. Overall, big step up from the past few eps.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
This is a much better disk!
I don't think the switching runabouts trick was quite as obvious as you guys do. Yes, this is still the era of tv where you need to spell things out for casual viewers. One of the complaints of the time that was that DS9 was too hard to follow (with it's intricate plots and huge cast of characters) compared to TNG which one could watch purely episodically. DS9 also got a lot of hate for being set on a space station (it's not STAR TREK!) and unfortunately with some, for having a black lead (they would say it was PC pandering). The plot hasn't gotten that complicated yet, but this was a time when you couldn't just watch whatever whenever. The internet was limited and you mostly caught up by watching reruns. Funny to think about how different things were. There was a fundamental studio assumption that everything had to be episodic, because they wanted the show to gain viewers which it wouldn't do if they turned it on and had clearly missed a lot of the background story. This kind of expository dialogue to make clear what was going on was VERY common back then.
Pc wasn’t a term yet that I remember. Nor was there a notion of pandering. There was some surprise because he was our first black lead, but by the 90s a lot had changed and backlash hadn’t started yet. I’m sure there were bigots being bigots, and we were still in the stage of “oh he is the black captain” instead of just being a lead, but I recall more positivity about the casting. Not that Avery didn’t deal with some stuff from producers which enters mild spoiler territory if I elaborate now (will do later). Avery Brooks was also an actor who had a popular show where he was a lead, spun off from a show where he was a popular supporting character. I watched both. I was excited Avery Brookswas cast and didn’t think about race at the time, and I expect a fair number of people felt the same way. Otherwise I agree with you. This was good 90s TV, but still 90s TV.
This episode is where season 2's run really starts. After this there isn't another bad episode. And that mostly holds true for the rest of the series. Congratulations, your past the early doldrums.
The "gamr" they are playing is inviting starfleet to help destroy the weapons with the intention of killing them and faking their deaths. Armageddon because of the bio weapons.
the ambassadors weren't working on the technical aspects. They mean the scientific knowledge to recreate them, not just awareness of the weapons. Their whole civilizations are aware of the weapons.
The transporters have a biofilter that is supposed to screen out pathogens but things can get by it like in this case sophisticated engineered biological weapons
Right before the explosion, Alex and Josh are praising Star Trek VI. Definite tip off.
"Hey, lets just load all the harvesters onto a shuttle and remote pilot it into the sun." roll credits. Great episode otherwise.
And ruin a perfectly good shuttle? Lol.
We are definitely over the worst. The back half of S2 DS9 tracks much higher than TNG S7 🖖🖖
Definitely think the hairstylists this season was told “do what you want”
"We need to save money on face plaster"
This was the first episode of ds9 I watched when I was 11, at my gramps home. I loved it then and I loved it now. I teared up with the chief facing execution and I did so today. Amazing episode.
Ah DS9 doing what it seems to do best throwing different characters together and letting the character dynamics play out.
My clue would be you guys saying Trauma is overused and takes away from the Sci-Fi storytelling.
They took the cardassian teleporter animation and turned up the brightness.
I like how the twist ending ties back to O’Brien’s speech about marriage being an adventure with mistakes. I like the implication that relationship mistakes can lead to growth (or to keeping your spouse from being a casualty of an interplanetary governmental conspiracy, whatever).
Trivial observation here. Looks like DS9 is down by two "roundabouts".
I never quibble about things like endless replacements. The last thing I would want to watch is an explanation of how Runabouts (or whatever) are financed, constructed and delivered. This is strictly background....far in the background.
I can see it on your faces at the beginning. You thought this was just going to be another mid episode!
My clue would be you guys wearing Buffy shirts.
I would know it was Ai if there were no jabs at Undiscovered Country!
How many people caught the "Are You Afraid of the Dark" reference Josh made.
Interesting story. So when I first binged Deep Space 9 a few years ago, I don't know how but I skipped this episode on accident. I have NEVER watched it even on re-binges, because I think there's something cool about there always being one episode I never watched. Maybe on my death bed lol. Thus I have no comment for this one. :)