UNCUT - The Alternate (DS9 S2E12) | Star Trek Journey 300
300 Star Trek reactions. Wild.
Comments (71)
DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jadzia 1
Odo has Daddy issues, the episode. Star Trek main cast father's tend not to be deadbeats, just a little dominating.
"The Alternate" aired Jan. 9, 1994. It's #300 in TA's Star Trek journey... In the words of Winston Churchill, "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning..."
😂 this is basically an Odo Werewolf episode.
Stories have to start somewhere. Keep Watching.
I can never not think of the TV show Benson when I think about Rene.
The writing in this is what lets it down, it's not coherent. I actually think the family drama and monster plots could work really well together, but the episode wastes too much screen time on random scenes like the Dax misdirect and Chief being in the vents only to discover that the lifeform was dead. Also the ending makes no sense. Why not have it so the small lifeform can't survive on its own so it merges and possesses Odo, with it taking over when he's asleep. The ending could have then been Dr Mora separating it and then debating Odo about whether to study it or let it go. They also should have gone full Alien / The Thing horror, it was almost there in several scenes but fell flat each time. We should have had Chief and Bashir being suckered and dragged into the vents and go missing until the end of the episode, with everyone thinking they're dead.
Wow, I was really surprised about the reaction to this episode. For me the last 3 up to Rivals are the end of the clunkers for S2. I had no idea this one was so unpopular, but it's great hearing other opinions. I do agree the Obelisk scene with Dax doesn't work. I'm not saying this episode is great, but I feel entertained when I watch it. It might just be because I really like Odo and O'Brien in this episode.
You guys are right that there is something missing in this. It never really adds up. There is clearly a lot of human drama going on between Odo and Mora that is mostly glossed over by chalking this all up to some poison gas and a CGI monster. What makes the later seasons of the show so great is that they don't make mistakes like this with the character development. I know you are probably sick of us saying this, but just keep plowing ahead. This is a tough stretch of DS9 but there will soon be a noticeable uptick in quality.
Tomalak is gone because he is staring in a lead role in Babylon 5 Speaking of which... '( o.o) (o.o )'
There is no better example of a half finished script being hastily cobbled together the night before being sent to production. There were enough elements here, but clearly it wasn't given the time to develop into a complete episode. Makes you wonder what the writers were spending all their attention on
What was the point of the Obelisk and why was Dax acting so weird towards it. Especially the bit where she said she moved it. In the end they didnt translate it and it played no part at all despite taking up some amount of screen time
It was 100% a poorly inserted deflection, they were trying in a very quick fashion create a mystery plot around this life form "who did it?", so they were trying to make you think Dax was behind it, possessed or influenced by the statue.
well, I would have liked the root cause would have been some deep hidden psychological hate at his past instead of the alien gas. And the solution would be a group therapy. OR if they full lean on the gas stuff and investigate if the gas killed all others shapeshifter (cousins) on that planet.
Well, the cause actually WAS some deep hidden psychological hate, not the gas. The episode just didn't explain it very well. And the solution actually IS group therapy. I went into more detail with this in a reply further down in the comments, but the gas was just a catalyst to let Odo get all of that repressed rage out. The gas made Odo express all of his repressed trauma and emotions toward Dr. Mora supconsciously while he "slept" in his bucket. The monster WAS Odo's trauma personified. That's why it wanted to kill Dr. Mora and why Odo completely lost it during that triggering conversation Mora had with him when he was trying to scare and maniuplate him. The turning point with Mora at the end WAS earned if you understand this layer. When Mora sees Odo raging against the forcefields and goes "My God! What have I done?!" It's because he finally realized by seeing Odo like that, that he was looking at all of the damage he had caused Odo over the years, including this episode when he STILL kept treating him like he was a lab specimen whenever he spoke with him. He finally got to SEE that his ways were damanging to Odo, and at the end of the episode, he basically vows to change his ways, and finally start acknowledging Odo as an equal, and his own person. He lays the foundation for them to finally start having an actual relationship, where before he made that impossible. He finally realized that he never really listened to Odo, or acknowledged his needs or perspective. As he put it "No, I'm sorry for all of this having been necessary. You had to speak in a voice that was loud enough for me to hear."
Guys, CGI in the early 90s was not at all photo-realistic. The fact they even had decent goo mechanics for Odo's shapeshifting was a minor miracle. "ReBoot, the first fully CGI 30 minute cartoon series was just getting of the ground conceptually, and the creators realized setting it in a computer was the best way to explain the art style of early CG. Thank goodness the writing on that show was so top-notch so it's not just a historical curiousity. But even they would have to spend nights sleeping under their desks just to ensure scenes would render properly. And this was years before "Toy Story." Bad CGI effects like this crawled so stuff like Avatar could run.
We are aware 90s CGI is bad that’s why we jokingly refer to it as “90s CGI”
Actors getting SO tied to their characters that they are heavily associated with them and it seems weird to have them play a different characters is a relatively new thing. Actors used to show up as different characters multiple times in the same show all the time. Heck, Columbo had one actor play the killer FIVE different times. But that's shifted so much that now RDJ playing Doctor Doom seems weird af.
Funny enough I'm rewatching Matlock right now and I'm only in season 3 and Kiras actress has already played 3 characters in there. In fact Dr. Mora's character as well as many star trek guest actors have shown up in Matlock coincidentally and have had multiple characters, this one actress, I do not know her name has appeared in at least 5 different roles in the show already.
DS9 guide doesn’t say it was the cost of FX but the time: Odo’s makeup is more time consuming than Data’s, so they said the shooting sked would run too many days and THAT would cost more.
54:38 strong disagree. I think a little misdirect like that is great. And the whole point is it doesn't lead to anything. Sometimes that's how life works.
Life, yes. Narrative, no.
Better than the last 3 episodes but let's face it, it was a low bar. I actually enjoyed it but there was on thing that just seemed off: Dax was just...weird? It was like someone who had no idea who the character was was just parachuted into the show and was given a brief of "mercurial scientist who's a bit odd"? She seemed almost menacing at some point, and the whole Odo commenting on why the obelisk was moved and Dax was just "It was in my way" in a strange, confrontational tone? Bizarre.
I think they were trying to set Dax up as a red herring, so they had her act "off." It fooled my husband while watching this. But it's weird when we never get an in-universe expaination for that odd behavior.
I really like the last 10 Minutes and the Fact, that it is not a grand Scheme or something like this, but supressed feelings. Feels more "real", because i can relate to this Story. B+ Episode for me.
Yeah, we're still in the Season 2 mid-season slump. It's getting better, and the worst is behind us now, but Season 2's main problem for a while are episodes like this one, Rivals, and Sanctuary where they have a lot of good stuff in them on paper, but the execution either falls flat, or is straight up terrible. Either something is missing; throw away plots are a mess with no resolution, point, or clear message, and are boring at best and offensive at worst; or guest characters are uninteresting and/or insufferable. Season 1 episodes tended to feel too TNG. Season 2's episodes tend to revert back to TOS, or DS9 Season 1. Or like this one, it's just that something is missing or doesn't quite work. Good, but not great. They DO eventually figure out what they're doing this season though. We've already gotten an episode like Necesarry Evil. We'll get back there. You just have to deal with the growing pains of lackluster writing until the writing staff finally figures out what works. The last third of this season should be a real treat in comparison.
Also yeah special effects for Odo changeling stuff were super expensive, even the few seconds of the blob flammering about as you saw there. They blew too much of the budget of it in Season 1 even with simple stuff like him morphing into a rat.
I think both storylines had the potential of beeing really good (yes even the mystery-alien plot imo) but pairing those two only damaged both of them. The monster stuff could have been really cool if it had gone into Full mystery-horror mode and the the doctor Mora stuff was fine, but also not deep enough to be truly considered great.
I have seen a lot of fans talk about this episode in a way where I think the monster stuff is a character driven thing that adds to Odo but the language in the actual episode is very weak at explaining that. Basically, Odo experiences anger and wanting to hurt or maybe even kill Mora so much that this gas thing has him divulge out all his rage into this monster that hunts down and wants to hurt Mora. When you view the episode in that light, I think that makes it a lot stronger.
Yes, the gas is the catalyst. It doesn't make Odo turn into a monster per se, but it certainly affects him enough to allow emotions that he would never act on to boil to the surface uncontrolled and act irrationally. The hint of destroying the lab, where he felt imprisoned and tortured when he was being studied, the resentment towards Mora. That's why Mora is able to calm him down in the force field once he realizes how he had hurt Odo in the past and was able to start admitting that he was responsible for making Odo feel caged or in a position where Odo had to shut himself off to interaction with others.
I can see where you guys are coming from, i used to think of this as a C, but i've started to enjoy it more and give it B. For the record i've never considered Dax a possible suspect in the mystery lol.
Kind of sad you're not excited about watching a new episode of Star Trek given how much you've got left to go. Agree it was just a good-ISH episode with a heavy emphasis on the ISH though.
It's strange, but I remembered this being better. In my mind it was a better, more dramatic reveal that Odo hated Mora, and he actually said it outright. Also feels like it came too early that we learned that thing was Odo. Something missing is spot on.
I still rate this a solid B, but I agree it had the ingredients to be far better. The villain being Odo, invertedly due to the gas, I find fascinating. Kind of like Data being taken over but in this case, without knowing it's him. The solution did feel rushed, anticlimactic.
Computer graphics at the time of this episode? It was expensive and time consuming to create the creature effect shown. YOU GUYS HAVE TO REMEMBER (I know you hate that phrase) the limited number of software packages & the limited number of hardware platforms available to create TV CG. Limitations in texture, motion, fluidity, etc.
Unrelated to the plot, but I love that the DS9 set has ceilings, and uses the lights in those ceilings to supply a more realistic lighting to every scene.
Andreas Katsulas said that in 'Future Imperfect' he felt uncomfortable/awkward in figuring out Tomolak's body language, since he was no longer just appearing on the Enterprise-D's bridge screen. He found this a real problem.
This one had all the elements to be a banger, but it wasn’t. C
Congratulations on 300 Trek reactions, gentlemen. Here's to 300 more!
Odo backstory- good. The rest? Meh to okay. The ending was rather silly. But Rene’s acting is incredible. There is something almost childlike about Odo- his fright in that scene with Mora. Rene makes Odo incredible. In a way it’s like Nimoy’s Spock- he seems one way but underneath there is emotion. It’s never overdone, but it’s there. I don’t think anyone else can really play Spock or Odo. The characters were made by the actors.
You are deep in the depths of the mid season dip that makes people lump season 2 in with season 1. Take heart that you are very close to one of the most consistent runs of great-to-excellent episodes in almost any Trek season to this point.
This
Yeah, I didn't remember this beyond the basics going in, and it's pretty mid. High C/low B territory. Rene and James Sloyan do their best to make the most of it, but overall it's just OK. It's a shame that Bashir hiding Dax's clothes to keep her in the infirmary is just expected behavior at this point. Somehow I doubt he did the same to the Bajorans. Just highly inappropriate on his part. Still, I do see this as a significant step up from the last 3 episodes. There's some good and some bad here, but it's not mind numbingly boring, so it's a perfectly fine episode to watch, it's just not one that sticks with you in the long run. Still, some good stuff(and some bad stuff) coming up on both TNG and DS9. Hang in there.
Bashir hiding Dax' s clothes makes me smile, i' d do the same too if i was the Doctor lol. Besides it was to try and stop her leaving than being pervy.
Odo noticing the pillar had been moved seems to me like Odo trying to look observant to DR Mora. Almost like trying to look cool for someone you think somewhat highly of, since he didn't just shrug off the compliments he got from DR Mora. (but obviously he still had mixed feelings on DR Mora).
Raktajino is kind of a ridiculous concept. Klingon coffee that just happens to sound like Cappuccino? I never thought of Klingons as coffee people.. blood in it? Boiled in a Targs stomach? 😆 tons of caffeine! I think you can find recipes online? It’s basically chocolatey
i always just assumed Raktajino was a Cardassion coffee. That would at least be less of a stretch. It's a Cardassian station and 50 years of occupation of Bajor would at least have established some aspects of Cardassian culture. Maybe too much trouble to reprogram the Cardassian replicators, so everyone just got used to a convenient drink. [I understand Bajorans might have had objections to a Cardassian drink, but practicality would win out.]
Don’t worry guys. There’s plenty of Nog to come.
I believe by this point, we've heard civilians refer to their "phone" rather generically as a "comm unit."
Also cominicade, right?
Andreas Katsulas did seven movies (including The Fugitive) between 1991 and 1993, two TV show appearances, and then in 1993 started Babylon 5. So he was quite busy during TNG's run.
I remember liking this one at the time, but seeing it again now, I think they kinda handwaved the Odo infection a little too much. "Oh, it was just the gas, but who knows why that made this happen..." But, on the plus side, they did seem to find some distant relatives of his species. So, there's that.
He had gas. 💨
well you guys were talking a bit but the climax is supposed to be an emotional one when Mora sees odo sturggling against the force field and finally "gets it"
I think it's that Odo feels guilt for trying to kill him
We are about to get bangers then 2 mid then banger city
He speaks Truth!
It’s interesting s2 is a bit frustrating due to the mid season slump, but there’s some real gems to come. 93/94 was a chaotic time - work on the next movie, Voyager and these two seasons seem to mean that both TNG and DS9 are compromised at times.
Just checked the release dates of VOY and was not aware that they pushed it that early into DS9 already. While TNG was already heading off and the sets already build, for DS9 it surely ment some cut corners as they would need to spend budget on yet another full stage and cast…and the movies yeah.
I’m always a sucker for Odo episodes and I do like the relationship with Doctor Mora in this one. It is better than the previous 3 but not sure that is saying much 😬
I liked this one a little better than you guys did. I would give it a B, but I see your point about it feels like something is missing. The clues don't entirely add up to me for the solution they came up with. Most of the parts are better than the whole.
I totally forgot about the Icarus Factor when making my comment about deadbeat dads. I guess that's because, despite featuring the most "advanced form" of martial arts, it's as forgettable as this episode.
DS9 has the best episode titles, there are some that you really remember. Also - I can tell you exactly what happened to Andreas Katsulas - he was in the main cast of Babylon 5; which aired at the same time as DS9 and was a direct competitor. His role in that show involved a huge amount of makeup, so I imagine he would have been far too busy to guest star on other shows.
I said last time that I thought there wasn't a single episode left in the season that was less than a high B; but in all honesty It's been a while since I watched this one and it wasn't as good as I remember. I give it points for giving us some Odo backstory, and for being an improvement on the past few episodes, but I think it's somewhere around the high C mark for me.
Ok we’re through the dry spell or are we?
Not quite.
Yes, it was that expensive for that one shot! CGI effect were in their infancy and things that look cheesy by todays standards were a big deal back then, and not cheap at all! Plus budgets were considerably smaller back then.
Dax was there just because she's the Science officer and it was a scientific expedition. That's just her role.
You had to look up James Sloyan. Still, you did recognize him. Never realized till now that Odo copied Dr Mora to achieve his look.
He mentioned it to Lwaxana in 'The Forsaken'.
Congrats, You're almost a third of the way through all of Star Trek. Wait...You're only a third of the way through all of Star Trek. Looks like you're making a career out of this.