UNCUT - Rivals (DS9 S2E11) | Star Trek Journey 299

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jadzia 1 GUEST: Fright Night guy +2 DETAILS: Welcome to FRRRIGHT NIIIIGHT. For real…. NOT. (okay only some will get that reference.

Josh….Alex…..BN13…..you guys *do know* how different humans can be from each other, right? …………………………..so *why* would you think that Guinan and this guy can’t be from the same species, exactly? Come on. What a ridiculous argument. Not Josh and Alex as much, though a little when they agree with it, but what BN said was just *stupid*.

Not an amazing episode, but I wanted to respond to two of the points you guys brought up. First, it seems odd to wish for Guinan's species to be the reason that she's such a great character/person. As a species, I think all we know is that they have some empathic ability, and perhaps natural charisma, so like a different, less overtly-telepathic, species like Betazoids or something. Even for Guinan herself as an individual, her personality was clearly different back when she was hanging out with Mark Twain hundreds of years ago (not that those are great episodes, of course, so maybe you'd prefer to forget them). So, it seems to me Guinan's great because she, as an individual, and like anyone can but few do, grew as a person over her long life into someone kind and wise. Second, while I don't think it need be relevant in your assessment of whether you like the episodes or not, at least in terms of understanding why they made episodes like this, I like to keep in mind when the show was airing, and that it was a syndicated show. Its success depended on individual stations licensing it each year, and they often liked to have the option of airing things out of order. And, back then, super serialized or character-driven shows just weren't much of a thing. Nonetheless, this show pushes that envelope quite a bit as it goes on, for its time, so "it gets better".

Give them six more weeks and the show will be completely fixed

I recognized the guest actor as Prince Humperdink from The Princess Bride, but it doesn't save the episode, just geewhiz info.

He's the same race as Guinan, an El Aurian (A listener, they..listen) Edit: Just got to the part of the discussion where they mention this lol

Yeah, the story is just wallpaper here - this is decent filler with some character establishment. It's fun if you're in the mood for it. C+ We're coming up to liftoff here, though, just sit tight.

It's barely a D. Lazy plot development. So cliche and predictable. Just hang in there guys. It gets better. I promise.

One thing I do like is the implication that "I need money to invest in asteroid mining" is like the 24th century equivalent of the Nigerian Prince Scam

I think you guys should relax a little bit...you seem very on edge waiting to see if it's a "good" or "bad" episode right from the beginning. There are 26 episodes in a season, just relax a bit and let them wash over you. Something can be found to enjoy in even mediocre episodes like this.

I barely remembered this episode. Honestly, while not stellar, there's enough here with the Chief, Bashir, and Keiko to warrant at least a low 'C' for me. The other plot was pretty pointless, though, with a low-powered threat and a two second solution.

Yay! The S2 slump is over. For me the 3 crappy S2 episodes are all in a row (thank god). Enjoy the rest of the season. :)

I've no way of knowing if this was actually what happened or just a case of us loving our boys more than one-shot fluff plots, but this feels like a B-story (casino) trying to pretend it's the A-story -- and vice-versa-- because the writers weren't confident the A-story they originally came up with could carry the episode. What I've heard, though, is that the casino stuff was just significantly watered down.

Definition of contract filler, but a testament to the cast and writers being more comfortable with the characters that Bashir & O'Brien can elevate this out of "Didn't Care"... if only by the slimmest of margins. I remember scrolling down the season 2 episode list thinking it was better than I remembered only to get to the recent run and mutter, "Oh, riiiiight."

That guest actor is a much better vampire than con artist. that is all i got from this turd sandwich

Guest character was terrible. Always hated that plot line Nearly over the worst. Hold the line boys. Good stuff is a coming.

I like this episode for the silly plot and all of the reasons you enjoy parts of it. The guest actor is meh, and thankfully that doesn't bring it down too much for me. But I do get it, wanting more time and focus on the core cast that we love, rather than a new person that won't be here next week. Those stories can work but only if executed flawlessly, and it's tough to get perfect actors on short timetables.

This episode is the celery they pack a shrimp cocktail with instead of shrimp.

Well, at least Bashir and O'Brien are funny together. That's the one nice thing I can say about this episode. In the middle of DS9 season 2 you can really see the drag on writers caused by making them do 26 episodes a season. Maybe if they weren't under that kind of time crunch they could have created a better A-story. An actual competitor to Quark, with games that made sense. Yeesh I would have rather seen TNG's "The Game" game than these dumb things. The ideas here are good, including Rom ditching Quark for someone he mistakenly believes is a better employer. But it's all so flat, from the dialogue to the guest character. Would have enjoyed seeing a true competitor, opening up a rival casino, where he is cheating his customers, only for the customers to turn the tables and cause him to lose everything. (Perhaps led by Rom?) This was just the dullest possible take on this.

Dukat "Well, that is quite the dilemma Commander. I've always found that the best way to reinvigorate a troubled relationship is to introduce an element of adventure, to explore new experiences together. As a gesture of good will, I offer to personally assist in this matter. Tell me commander, do you think either the Lieutenant or Major Kira would be interested in a........threesome?" OK, I keep having to revise my least favourite this season. ould have swore it was Sanctuary going in, but at least that episode had something to say, and as annoying as Seyetik was, the actor owned the role. I remembered more of the Martus story than the O'Brien/Bashir B plot, but I didnt remember how God awful it was. And honestly the O'Brien/Bashir story was just OK to me, and completely overshadowed by the rest. I'm doing it, I'm giving it an E. You know what the worst part is? A device that affects probability COULD have been a fun plot, if it were done properly. Stargate SG-1 would have done a story around a gimmick like that, and that show and it's writing staff would have made it work beautifully. Here it's just painful. Also Chris Sarandon may be a decent actor, but that wasn't on display here. When he runs after the Bajoran woman shouting "TREASURE" I just couldn't pretend I liked this even a little bit anymore. As a kid I thought it was fun, but it gets worse on every rewatch.

You guys do realize that Guinan is an El-Aurian, right?

Enjoy the garbage episodes while you can

Repeat directors know what an amazing set they have to work with. DS9 had enormous two level standing sets.

Gul Dukat’s relationship call-in show. “Dukat After Dark” 🤣🤣💀

... okay, I knew I remembered a DadBod O'Brien episode. Keiko and Chief are kinda hot together. Great camera work... okay-ish "slice of station life" save-the-money bottle episode story.

I actually remember watching this one as a kid, though I only remember the O'Brien and Bashir bits. I must have selectively erased the con man from my mind. Why didn't they just have Bashir & O'Brien's tennis rivalry as the main plot? They could have had tension by tweaking the Quark story, maybe have him raising money to pay off some nefarious debt he owes or something. Just delete the con man and his stupid ball thing

I wish the tennis plot had been put into a less trash episode

Don't insult Susan Sarandan's brother. He's had several memorable roles. Don't worry, the best is soon to come. Very soon.

Dukat would have answered: "Well Captain, I'll have my best intelligence officer investigate and will review every video evidence by myself" Can't remember what I wrote on my take, however I really enjoyed the episode today and its stupid and boring but the charakters just live their lives and react to stupid and boring... So maybe its a realistic view of a normal day between the weekly dramatic events. Also Odo arriving at the perfect moment at the end is good luck and bad luck at the same time ;)

so who won the match? I had a bet on it too!

I was always “eh” on this ep but then I found out this dude is the same species as Guinan and just HATED it!! I had hoped no one would mention it. And wondered if that was the reason the takes got moved. But yeah, totally agree with what y’all said.

Fun but forgettable episode.

It's a story about Rivals Bashir and Chief and Quark and the Vampire from Fright Night, is it the Best no but it was kinda fun and watchable, they always say they want to see a day in the Life type story, and when they do one, they gripe Geez

An episode of two B-plots. It be plotting all over the place.

I've got auto-generated captions on and it just doesn't know what to do with "Gul Dukat." It comes up with "go to cut", "Gold Tooth Conf", and so on. This at the same time as the two of you were cracking up over the idea of Sisko going to Dukat for advice about Kira an Dax was almost too much.

I'm glad from the comments your read out that i' m not the only one who likes this. Obviously the Chief and Julian stuff is my favourite part but i enjoy the rest too.

This feels very C-tier in general. An episode that is sortof boringly executed, with what feels like a TOS or early-TNG "gimmick" behind what's going on. Contract filler all the way.

A bit tough on this episode, but I get the criticism. It's not fantastic, but the stuff that does shine does it so well. The plot between Bashir and O'Brien has some very good interactions. In fact the main criticism on this episode was that the stuff with Dax and Sisko felt shoehorned in just to give them something to do. Bashir and O'Brien would have been smart and capable enough to figure out the whole thing. And if you really think about it, Guinan and Martus are two sides of the same coin. They're both listeners, but it's what they do with the information they get is what's vastly different. Guinan chooses to use her skills to help people, guide and mentor them. Martus is a con man. It does make sense, you act like a species are supposed to act the same, when that's never what Star Trek has ever done.

To the people saying 'you just don't get it', I don't think that's the case at all. We know what they were trying to accomplish, they just failed at it. The writing and guest acting in particular. Some better dialogue and some stronger actors, this could have been saved. And even if you don't fully resolve things, I imagine an ending where we are in the racket ball court with Miles and Julian. Miles says something along the lines of, "now that that's over, let's giv'm a show" as he's smiling with Bashir in the background. Miles serves and the ball takes us to credits. Still unresolved but with some more flare.

I don’t remember this episode and haven’t done the rewatch yet but this thumbnail tells me everything I need to know.

AWEFUL episode! The only thing that saves anything of this is the O'Brien/Bashir dynamic. Great news though. You're nearly through the doldrums of this show (In my opinion anyway!)

This episode is a guilty pleasure of mine, only Star Trek can introduce a luck machine for a one-off episode

Story is ass, but the Humor in this Episode is amazing. ^^

As a comment below mentioned this was originally written as a Guinan guest appearance episode, with the character Martus as her wayward son, but Goldberg had a scheduling conflict leading to a last minute rewrite that's obviously a bit of a mess and is probably why it doesn't really even have an ending. When Goldberg dropped out they should have just cut the El-Aurian angle because it just adds to the problems with the guest character. That said, I love so many of the little character bits with Basir, Quark, and O'Brien that this ep still gets a marginal thumbs up from me.

HELL YEAH YOU SHIP KIRA X DAX THATS WHY JOSH IS THE GOAT

I'm going to go full baseball metaphor here in honour of Sisko. Season 1 and 2 of DS9 bunt the baseball a lot, which occasionally get's people to move forward a base or two, but it's generally unimpressive. Once they start swinging for the fences, the home runs can't stop coming. I'm excited for you guys to light up when we get there.

D Tier episode. S Tier thumbnail

My least favorite DS9 episode and for some reason it got reran a lot

for the longest time i thought that the guy in this ep was played by the guy who played the guy in the circle 3 parter. the sole reason i thought that was because the guy in this ep acts like the character the guy from the circle plays in twin peaks. I was a lot younger then, but im still just as stupid.

Humperdinck, Humperdinck, Humperdinck!

Wow you guys really don't get this one. You don't vibe with the comedic tone of the episode at all, and its like you dont even get what they're trying to do and just baffled and disengaged. There are arguments about what TRek should be, and some people don't see that as intentionallyh campy comedy, but TOS did that. But when you totally don't get what they're going for, the episode is pre-sunk conceptually and can't be judged on its merits relative to other attempts. I'm not trying to say "Oh, you didn't get it because I liked it" I mean there were literally parts in the video where it as clear you didn't "get it" and you kind of have to get what their trying to get lol

To be fair to Columbo, it’s not about Columbo figuring out who did it … it’s about him figuring out how to prove it.

i am glad i waited until so long into the reaction to mention the Guinan/El-Aurian thing... it definitely feels like this guy was a bad apple in that race... which makes sense. Crappy people everywhere. Guinan is such an amazing character... so show the other side. And while dude wasn't amazing... nostalgia requires me to like it since he played Prince Humperdink in the Princess Bride. (He was evidently typecast to play insufferable characters lol).

I liked it. I'm not understanding the hate. No, it's not exciting or edge of your seat TV. Just a good fun A plot and an amusing B plot as the Chief and Doctor get to know each other better.

Given the life span of El Aurians, Martus could basically be the equivalent of a dumbass 18 year old that just moved out of home and is in his rebellious phase but hasn't learned to tell his ass from his elbow yet. Alternatively; I feel like this episode could have been fun if he'd just been another Ferengi; to lean into the Quark rivalry.

You've seen an El Aurian before, her name is Guinan. This episode concludes the 'DS9 Season 2 midseason bad episode trilogy' It's the least bad of this 3 episode stretch we've just had, in my opinion. The good news is, looking forward at the remaining episodes this season, I don't think there's even a single episode I'd score lower than a High B. Edit: For the record I do always watch the discussion I just can't help myself commenting as I watch.

I still dont understand this episode.

I think that--given the Listeners are refugees on the run who are scattered across the galaxy and having to bend over backwards to make do--it stands to reason that more than a few of them may have turned to less reputable lifestyles for the sake of sustaining themselves. Also, we've already had Guinan giving us an example of a morally upright and admirable El-Aurian; this episode gave us an example of a member of that same species who is NOT to be emulated. I at least admire the attempt at a variety of representation, as t'were. I suppose I never put too much thought into the A-plot of this episode, given that it's so... forgettable. I just really-really like the O'brien/Bashir stuff and how Rom bounces back and forth between Quark's and the villain-of-the-week and how the plot didn't even TRY to be anything but "low stakes." As for the guest star--yes, he most definitely soaks up far too much of the spotlight (we barely even see Sisko until halfway through the show). I didn't think his performance was bad, personally. Hammy? Corny? Absolutely, but that was the tone this episode was going for. If perhaps the last few episodes before this installment were of better quality, a "silly" installment would be more tolerable at this point, but I cringe inside when I see you two ACHING for better, more poignant episodes. You have my sympathies. I assure you that there ARE good episodes to come, but I'm sure that doesn't make the wait any easier. Thanks for responding to my drivel and making us all feel included in your journey. I'm glad you two find stuff to laugh about, even when the source material is occasionally stale~

Well you're technically not supposed to know that Guinan is an El-Aurian yet, but since you googled it anyway i might as well add this: the original intent was apparently for Martus to be Guinan's son, and for Guinan to guest star in the episode. But Whoopi Goldberg wasn't available, so they cut Guinan out and i think THAT is ultimately the reason the episode doesn't work - it lost its reason for existing, but they just shot it anyway.

Star Trek was pitched as Wagon Train to the Stars the producers of DS9 thought of it more like the Rifleman. Mostly due to the fathers son dynamic?... I tend to think of it like Gunsmoke. Because sisko has more of an official Sheriff type role then the rifleman did.

People who think Q is afraid of Guinan? Her species was wiped out by the Borg. What could they possibly do to the Q? If anything it’s Guinan herself that is special in a world of time lords she’s the Doctor! 😉

I would 100% legit watch a show where Gul Dukat plays Dr. Drew. Absolutely.

Think if they made this more a day in the life of the station and the crew and focussed the main cast rather than Martus and the rival bar this might work better.

Interesting that you guys mention TOS uniforms. I have always pictured the TOS crew somehow being transported into the future and Kirk wearing a first season TNG Yellow because he wouldn’t know any better. The conceit of the “episode” would be that a storage bay in 24th Century looks just like one in the 23rd century. 😂

Thoroughly disappointed that no mention was made of Prince Humperdinck

The guest star was Chris Sarandon, Susan Sarandon's ex-husband. He seems good at playing kind of slimy characters; he stars as one in another movie I won't name in case you haven't seen it yet. I generally liked the the episode. I agree the Chief/Bashir plot was more fun, but additionally it had two things I enjoy: every-day slice-of-life stories that flesh out the feeling of what life is like on the station; and a pretty weird sci-fi-ish plot, here with a device that can actually manipulate the laws of probability. Since A&J aren't fans of the sort of story where the viewers figure out the problem/mystery before the characters, I can see why they wouldn't like how the plot here unfolds. The ending with him and Quark seemingly in mid-conversation was a weird choice though

I forgot this one existed. I've maybe seen it once before and obviously it didn't make much of an impression.

Fun fact: actress Barbara Bosson (Bajoran merchant woman) had been a regular on the 80's TV show Hill Street Blues. Her husband at the time, Steven Bochco, was the co-creator/producer.

To be honest there were plenty of good things to pick out of this. The direction, the O'Brien / Bashier dynamic, some good quality Quark action. Just a shame it came together in such a pointless mess.

Yet another example of how even season 2's of Berman era Star Trek fall short of the later seasons. High point for me: Chris Sarandon, who's performance in this episode is not one of his best. I am, however, an original Fright Night fan.

This episode annoyed the hell out of me. Chris Sarandon (Princess Bride, Dog Day Afternoon) is a respected actor from that era, but we REALLY needed a Harry Mudd type for this role to make it work. Even the Myles/Julian stuff left me cold.

It says something when the camera and stagework is really good, even when the script is weak. No one can say the crew wasn't trying their best.

Nothing to say on this one.

Yeah that guy should at least worn a funny looking hat.

Not this time

One of the harshest things of the first two seasons is that the writing team is actually learning how to write a stationary Star Trek show. When they have no idea what to do they default to TOS kind of plots and it hurts the show. Eventually, season 4 in my view, they'll get there but sometimes is hard. This one is forgettable, which is worse that bad.

This is an odd one to comment (and to remember). The Chief/Bashir stuff is great, and the beginning of an amazing friendship. The rest is classical Menosky Script. When it lands it lands really well, when it doesn't... is almost nothing to remember. I have faint memories of the luck ball thingy but nothing else. The Bashir and Chief thing I remembered completely

“Gotta be more like Necessary Evil…”. Yeah, not this week 🤣

Eh hard to come up with comments. Paper thin plot there’s just nothing really going on here I do like the Bashir/O’Brien stuff tho.

Don't forget everyone's FAVORITE El-Aurian... edit: Yes I DID watch the discussion I just typed that comment 2 minutes in. ROAST ME :P

Before watching I am gonna say “sorry guys”. This felt like a Deep space 9 The Love boat episode.