UNCUT - Necessary Evil (DS9 S2E8) | Star Trek Journey 293

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Quark 3 Chief 1 Keiko 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 Bashir 1 Jadzia 1 GUEST: Vaatrik Pallra +1 I can guarantee that when a Moffat walks on the set someone is having a huge O

About Dukat being evil, first off yes, however there is a little nugget there that I find interesting, assuming he is telling the truth, so who knows, but anyway. His higher ups wanted him to execute 10 Bajorans at random, but he instead wanted Odo to actually solve the murder. So, possibly not THAT sadistic.

Not sure if someone else mentioned it, but time line wise, this was the first time Kira called Odo "constable"

Also, Mark Alaimo's last name is pronounced "a-LIE-mo"

So glad you both loved this one! I love this one! It is one of the GREAT early episodes of DS9. This one is an indicator of how great DS9 will become.

This is one of my favorite episodes from early DS9, and probably in my top 15 for the whole series. I love the world building and seeing Odo and Kira and Quark all meet each other. Well-written and emotional to boot.

The wife was exquisitely Beautiful!!

I love that you love this episode this much, because I also love this episode this much.

Here’s something to chew on. This episode doesn’t make a lot of viewers’ personal top ten lists. That’s not because there’s anything wrong with the episode (almost all DS9 fans love this one). It’s because there are so many INSANELY good episodes to come that you guys haven’t seen yet.

Hell yeah! If you compare your discussion with some discussions after season 1 episodes, it really shows how much you like this show now.

I just gotta say that I truly hope you will give Battlestar Galactica another chance. You only got thru season 1 and I feel that just like you didn't think you would like DS9 after viewing season 1 of it but are actually starting to love DS9, I think you will do the same with Battlestar G. Please give it a chance guys. :)

Yes, this show does have giant balls! And we are just getting started. Love you guys!

I agree that "we had no choice" is a cope that every Bajoran uses. But it's understandable. They weren't happy with what they did, and they are struggling to justify it in their minds. But it was also the only way that they knew of to get rid of the Cardassians. And I'm sure that while they were in the resistence, "we have no choice" was what allowed them to simplifly everything down and continue to "resist" without thinking too much about it. In that situation, guilt or hesitation means you get killed by the enemy. But yes, it's not really that simple. They all actually had a choice, and everyone in the resistence chose to be a terrorist, kill, or do whatever else they thought was necesarry to fight. They didn't have to become resistance fighters. They didn't have to kill. And in fact, a lot of Bajorans didn't make that choice. But their alternatives weren't exactly great. If you didn't choose to join the resistence, then your other choices were to either survive as a slave, hopefully long enough for something to change while others "fought" for your freedom, try to escape to a refugee camp off-world like Ro's family did, or try to make life better for yourself by collaborating with the Cardassians. They all made their choices. In Kira's case, she's the kind of person who wants to be hands on. She's not the type to sit around trying to hide or survive while others of her people are out there trying to "fight for her freedom." If something dirty has to be done on her behalf, she'd rather be the one doing it, and suffering herself, rather than have others suffer for her while she lays low. For her, being a resistance fighter was a responsibility. Being a resistence fighter is who she is. Choosing something else for her meant at best that she was evading her civic duty, and at worst, that she was a collabortor/traitor. So yes, we all have a choice. but that choice is going to align with who we are as a person. Kira doesn't like killing. But she's willing and able to do it if she thinks it's necesarry, and this is the way most in the resistance were. For others, they wouldn't be able to kill under any circumstances, so they chose another path based on what they able to do. There were probably plenty of collaborators who didn't want to "betray their own people" but like Kira, they felt "they had no choice." So "we had no choice" more accuratley means, "we all had choices, but the choice I made was the only one of the choices I had available to me that I felt I could actually do. The others were intolerable to me, either because I'm too morraly again't it, or I'm physically incapable of living that way. I felt this choice was the lesser of the evils."

Giant fucking balls??? Hahahaha We are just getting started!!!!!

Kira’s not starfleet, but this show isn’t easy on them either

Was it murder it was war

Rom screamed when he realizes he lost the bar again

Wasn’t Quark the first to do a high-pitched scream? Someone let me know the episode, if it exists.

And here we find ourselves around the time that the highs just keep getting higher. So many more fantastic moments yet to come! I'm having a blast re-learning why this is my favorite Trek show.

I love that moment of Sisko and Odo seamlessly falling into "good cop/bad cop" in their initial questioning of Rom.

Yeah that Rom, not too bright, but great with machines

Rom's fire alarm scream is an instinctual Ferengi defense mechanism that DS9 maintains pretty consistently throughout it's run...

Funny how if the killer was just a random person Odo would arrest them, but it was Kira so the murder is 'legal' because it was a sanctioned act of the Bajoran resistance. Odo having to think hard about what 'justice' is here, and if he's in a position to serve it still.

Columbo is everything you guys hate: knowing the mystery before the characters, extended runtimes of 78-90 minutes, poorly executed padding in many episodes... there are lots of episodes I really like, but somewhat more I think are awful. I'd love for you to react to select episodes of it sometime.

A reaction so nice, I watched it twice. I knew you’d love this one. A great showing for DS9.

The show IS that guy. Perfect description of DS9. God I just love this episode and the entire series. And we're not even in the great parts yet, insane lol. Also interesting debate on if Kira was justified. I tend towards yes. Let's say Russia invaded and conquered the US, now we're under occupation, with Dalas taken over as a literal slave labor camp. And some residents there developed sympathies for the Russian occupiers and became collaborators, selling out any US citizens who were in the underground fighting back. Would I be willing to kill those collaborators? In a heartbeat. It's still blood on her hands. Justified I think, but perhaps only the Gods can judge the intentions in Kira's heart.

Guys, chill.... the show isn't even "good" yet lol. (seriously though, really good episode)

Yeah I think DS9 is pretty good guys

Not only was Marc Alaimo the first Cardassian ever in "The Wounded", he was also the first Romulan in TNG (in the last epsisode of the first season) "The Neutral Zone" and played a french pokerplayer in a little scene in "Time's Arrow". Max Grodénchik (Rom) has already been in TNG 2 times as a Ferengi. In "Captain's Holiday" and "The Perfect Mate". Not only was Armin Shimerman 1 of the first 3 Ferengi ever in TNG S1 E5 "The Last Outpost" and as another Ferengi in S2 E21 "Peak Performance" and weirdly as an Betazoid Gift Box ( who could guess this) in TNG S1 E11 "Haven"... NO .. he was also in your favourite show ever. You have seen him long before Star Trek... Yes in your favourite show "Buffy"! Already in season 1 ... as the principal. I would bet this last fact makes you extremly happy. right? Right?

Much like TNG, I tend to watch episodes from the middle stride of S3-S6 the most, so I forgot how good this episode was for character development between Kira and Odo in the series timeline. Some cool flashbacks, some Ferengi comedy and Odo musing human records would overtake all life if we didn't fine a way to store them microscopically is so true.

@28:50 she's saying she banged her "friend" for money. Obviously she was lying but it's a good alibi because obviously the "friend" who is married wouldn't want to talk about it.

Guys, Marc Ala-i-mo has nothing to do with a tourist attraction in San Antonio were those Texans got their asses kicked by the Mexicans.

Justice and order are not necessarily the same thing.

The purpose of the station prior to the Cardassian withdrawal from Bajor was ore processing. They strip mined Bajor of resource wealth, and did a lot of the processing in the bowels of Terok Nor, using Bajoran slave labor. It was obviously also a shipping hub, with cargo coming and going to support the occupation and the export of stolen resources. It was also the administrative center of the occupation of the planet. Basically, Terok Nor was a giant mosquito, hanging there in orbit above Bajor, sucking the blood out of it...

I forgot that this was the episode with Odo's epic log in it. One of the best logs ever. It's exactly the kind of thing my husband would put in his logbook at work.

I have to say, I grew up on TNG (season 1 I was 13 and it was perfect nerd tv), but by the time we got to DS9, I was in/out of college, working, etc. and didn't have the time to watch a show like that. I never thought that I would/could get into it, but watching along with you guys now, I am really starting to realize why there was all the hype. This episode is a perfect example.

. The only thing missing was Morn. An interesting note is Kira never claimed it was self-defense.

Moral gray area or not, I wouldn't necessarily call Kira a murderer for killing a collaborator. Sorry, these are people who sold out their own to make themselves more comfortable, to the detriment and deaths of their own people. Theres a certain evil there that's just as bad if not worse than the evil being perpetuated by the Cardassians. I wouldn't have hesitated to pull the trigger either so I guess it wasn't that morally gray for me in the end. Still a great episode. As for the rest of the episode, lost of fantastic work by everyone involved. Such a great story to explore both Kira and Odo's backstory. And I love how they're fleshing out Rom more here. This series really turned around the Ferengi.

You guys didn’t understand the Columbo comment. It’s not a comment about the type of story. Odo literally did an actual Columbo impression in one scene. You’ll understand only if you watch “Columbo.”

Deep Space Nine does many things that hadn't been done in Star Trek before. I'm excited for you guys. You are so close to starting the show. And obviously I am aware you are in Season 2. :-)

This episode is a good indicator of whether or not you'll like the show later. It's kind of the first taste of "true" DS9. This episode feels like it could have aired in seasons 3-4 and been right at home. Definitely one of the highlights of Season 2. Also, one of the best things about DS9 was it was in a position to be able to have "balls." The show was able to take risks and have creative freedom that none of the other shows could.

I think it’s interesting that you keep referring to Kira as a “terrorist” and saying she “murdered” someone. Those labels come directly from the Cardassians, who used them to delegitimize the Bajoran resistance. From the Bajoran perspective, Kira was a freedom fighter, not a terrorist. It’s a bit like the French Resistance in WWII: the Germans called them terrorists, but the Allies and their sympathizers called them patriots. Likewise, the death of a German soldier at their hands wouldn’t be described as “murder” by the Allies—it would be seen as part of a war. The same logic applies to Kira and the Bajoran resistance.

I love this one as well, for numerous reasons already mentioned. It would easily fit in with 'peak' Deep Space Nine (the later seasons). Also, if you care, the actor's name (Alaimo) is pronounced uh-LIE-moe.

I had a feeling you guys would love this, i'm glad i was right. My 3rd favourite of the Season, high A.

FWIW, in the original script it was revealed that Dukat was having an affair with the shop keeper's wife, which added to his motivation for not wanting other Cardassians to investigate the murder. Not strictly necessary for explaining why he brings in Odo - I think it's enough that he doesn't want to risk having the names of his Bajoran informants leaked - but still an interesting wrinkle that didn't quite make the final cut.

I absolutely love this episode. One of the best of the series in my opinion.

Not in terms of story structure or anything, but this episode to me represents standard DS9 firing on all cylinders the way it will after the teething faze, similar to "Timescape" on TNG. Not exceptional episodes, but a very good base lines for their respective series. The depth of the relationships and variety of regular guest characters is on full display here. It's the kind of storytelling that TNG touched on sometimes but never built a whole show around it. Sisko, Kira, Dukat, Rom, Odo...just this enssemble of characters is so vastly different from one another in ways that TOS and TNG didn't have with a Starfleet crew. It engenders conflict and very different storytelling than we've seen before. I think you guys are only going to enjoy the series more and more from here onward.

Oh, I've been here a while, it's just a new name. A name that I'm more proud of than I probably should be...

I knew u lads would enjoy this one . odo is the man !!!!

As a first time watcher of (most of) season 2, I’m confused how people were indicating season 2 was only a little bit of an improvement- so far it’s leagues ahead. Definitely the best episode so far.

Columbo's pilot was helmed by Stephen Spielberg. It aired as episode 1 of the series but his direction was the template. Worth a watch-a-long. Pre JAWS Speilberg.

This is very much like Ireland fighting Britain to create the Republic of Ireland in the south. During the fight for independence "collaborators" were killed for aiding the British...

If you've ever played wolfenstein 2 the occupation of Bajor is like The Nazis in America in the game.

I'll write my main review after work, but Kira was definitely justified in killing the guy. I don't think it was self defense in that "he had a phaser and it was kill or be killed", it was more a case of "he was a collaborator and if she didn't kill him, he would have had the Cardassians execute her"

The analogy for Bajor under the Cardassians would be Nazi occupied countries in WW2.

There's a running joke in the community, which IIRC ended up being used in at least one Star Trek novel (which are not cannon) that the Cardassian that Marc Alaimo played in 'the wounded' is Gul Dukat's twin brother, and they hate each other. Gul Dukat is such a fantastic character.

I love this episode. Aside from the obvious, It's a fantastic showcase of what makes DS9 tick, what sets it apart from say TNG. As you correctly point out, TNG would never in a million years have had the balls to do this. Plus it's so well done on every level, the noir vibe, the visuals everything.

Definitely an homage to "Double Indemnity" a great old film noir. Check it out if you haven't already.

ALEX: "I love a moral grey. I think that's how real life is and anything where you can point to both sides of whatever equation it is and say 'hey, this part is good' and 'hey, this part is bad' and say that for both sides, I think its a wonderful form of story-telling and shows how deep and complex and muddy humanity is. I love it.... except Crimson Tide. Crimson Tide sucked."

What a great reaction. The risks DS9 is willing to take is what makes it so fun. Giant balls indeed.

Rohm screamed afterwards because he realized by saving Quark's life, he wouldn't inherit the bar

LMAO at Josh's whiteboard🤣

She was trying to imply that revealing his name might raise questions as to why he, a married man, wa giving an attractive widow a large loan but in hindsight it was maybe a lame excuse, something she improvised at the last minute to throw Odo off the trail.

Sisko and Odo were playing Good Cop/Bad Cop to get Rohm to reveal information he wouldn't voluntarily share

Glad but not surprised you liked this. Star Trek 6 WYA?

So happy you guys loved this. I teared up when watching this cause it was so cool. Did the same listening to your reactions. So great.

I absolutely love the way Marc Alaimo delivers "Listen to how he talks to me" and then goes right to "That's why he's the man for the job." He flexes a little to remind everyone he's in charge and then pivots to building Odo up, because that's the move that gets him what he wants in this situation. Dukat is constantly working all the angles like that and it elevates him so far above the typical chad villain.

To paraphrase Kyril Finn from the TNG episode "The High Ground", the difference between patriots and terrorists is only the difference between winners and losers. When you win, you're a patriot; when you lose, they call you a terrorist.

We're starting to get into the DS9 episodes that I never saw on its 1st run or ended up watching later. Glad I am along for this ride with you guys, because this is 1 episode that makes me glad I'm taking the time to watch what I missed.

Such a great episode and a great marker for DS9 to come. Love to see the boys giddy with excitement on this one.

Michelle Forbes has had a very busy television career over the past thirty years, and among other things was nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the excellent, though short, tv series "The Killing" in 2011.

"Ah-LAY-mo."

Ah such a wonderful episode - well directed, well written and some great acting. That final scene is so good. I genuinely can’t think of anything wrong with it.

I think it might be slowly becoming clearer to you guys how DS9 is capable of making it to the number one spot of many Best Trek series rankings.

Great reaction! Glad you loved it so much! I forgot how great this episode is. There are so many amazing recurring characters in DS9 (some that you haven't even met yet) that it's hard to pick a favourite but Rom has to be up there for me. I just love him!

So, knowing how the Bajorans view collaborators...what do you think happened to the people that were getting blackmailed once their names came out here?

I like the irony of Odo bashing the need to keep a security log, but as the episode goes on, he starts using the log to record to process his thoughts. He'll never give Starfleet credit, but I think it helped him!

Loved this episode, and kudos to the writing here that they managed to insert so much comic moments into something so dark? The Quark / Rom stuff had me laughing out loud and feeling odd for doing so given the main plot. LOVED the transitions between present day and flashbacks - some top notch direction.

At any rate, and more importantly — watching you watch and discuss this episode was an absolute delight. Thank you for sharing your journey!

Saying the Cardassians were modeled off of Marc Alaimo is more accurate than you know. From Memory Alpha: Alaimo holds the honor of playing the first Romulan seen in the Next Generation era as well as the first Cardassian seen in the Star Trek saga. Nicknamed "The Neck" for his prominent neck muscles, Alaimo influenced makeup supervisor Michael Westmore's design of the Cardassian makeup, as Westmore based the race's neck ridges on Alaimo's physique.

There could definitely be a long discussion about terrorists vs. freedom fighters, and soldiers killing the enemy vs. murderers. All perspective.

Note there's an early hint at the guy being a collaborator. The wife tells Odo that they have private quarters "probably because we run our own shop," or something. But she knew EXACTLY why they were getting special treatment from the Cardassians.

I always read the “my friend is married” line as the widow implying to Odo that the loan was in exchange for sexual favors. (A lie, as we find out — in fact it was extortion!)

Regarding Kira's cope: the one invaluable line from the train wreck that was Battle Lines was Opaka saying, "Don't deny the violence inside of you, Kira. Only when you accept it can you move beyond it." And the successive lines. Opaka knew about who Kira really was, and who she was trying to become. Absolutely Kira is coping with intense trauma and rage. Can you imagine her leaving that behind to make friends with Sisko and Dax? Makes her over-acted sob more real in rewatches, imho.

I’m thinking now what a great Henry Dukard Rene would have made.

I just like that this episode accomplishes everything it sets out to do. There's no "they could have done this or that better" type of thinking.

If you guys ever do sample Columbo, I recommend “A Stitch in Crime” (S2 E6). It’s one of the most popular episodes and features a very familiar face.

This is one of my favorites.

Crazy to think Kira would have been fine with the wife going to prison for the rest of her life for a murder she committed. Odo realizing that defiantly would shake his trust in her.

Bajor was chosen for the setting because the refugee camp in “Ensign Ro” was the inspiration for the show. They originally wanted to set the show in a settlement on the planet Bajor and use an external set like the camp. They shifted to a space station to keep costs down.

I’ve been looking forward to this. Going to have a nice leisurely Sunday Star Trek brunch with a side of Noir.