UNCUT - Attached (TNG S7E8) | Star Trek Journey 292

the way i see Riker's aggressive command style is this. If he's acting captain, it's usually because the captain is kidnapped or in danger, and so we only ever see him in command during high-stakes situations where diplomacy has already failed.

I get the feeling in her younger days Bev was quite vivacious and perhaps a bit flirty, especially with Picard, not realizing the effect she was having on him.

That 70-year-old ambassador didn't immediately perform a hostile takeover and shove Riker and Worf in a closet, so as far as "Picard leaves the Enterprise" episodes go, this was a really good one for them.

Your comments about Riker's command style are interesting when held up next to Riker's issues with Jellico. Were they butting heads because they were too similar?

Mr. Worf, do NOT fire. Great showing from Riker as Captain indeed, and the lore with Crusher and Picard was sublime. I found myself extraordinarily tense in the last 4 minutes when they're back on the Enterprise, having their personal moment. So much emotional weight pressing down on both of them...

Agree - Gates McFadden is great when she is given material to work with which makes it so criminal that she is often underused.

I like this one - the scenes with Crusher and Picard are great, the scenes with the aliens of the week not so much. Nice to hear more of the backstory - Jack Crusher, Walker Keel and Jean Luc Picard were very close friends and is something I’d like to see more of

So i was watching some deleted scenes from one of the TNG movies and it made me think. I wish you guys had a forum for people who weren't following from the beggining to comment on previous reviews, especially when you reference them repeatedly. There are always new people joining, and comments on "dead reviews" won't go anywhere. I'm betting however, that people who join later go back and watch your older reviews and what to comment but are way too late. It may even be a possible determent from some people who would otherwise sign up. I would like to suggest something that many sites do, a weekly "open thread." This would be for general comments, or comments on older reviews. It wouldn't be any extra work for you guys,but it would give newer people a chance to open up discussions about past reviews and talk about things that don't easily fit into one of your posts, like meta type commentary on the reviews over the years, requests, etc. You could read them of you felt like it and respond or not. I know there is the discord forum, but this would be something you guys could at least theoretically respond to. Anyway.... I wasn't here for the Wrath of Khan, but you comment a lot about how Kirk having a son changes the character in a negative way and how thats the kind of adding of backstory you don't like. I wasn't there for the original discussion, and yeah, I'm bringing this up kind of randomly here, but I was just thinking about in terms of a plot like this, where past elements are added to canon that can recontexualize what came before (which Trek has frankly been great at, and one of the reasons i can rewatch older stuff, with insight into whats going on knowing more about the past) Anyway, I was thinking about why the TNG movies were mostly consider a failure. And obviously I can't go into details. but studios wanted to repeat the succes of Wrath of Kahn without really getting it. It seems like you guys didn't like it, but from what I've heard, it also seems like maybe you don't really get the conceit of that movie and why it was so popular. It's comparable to "Empire Strikes Back" in that the sequel to the original fun campy Star Wars "matured" with the audience and had darker themes. At the point of Wrath of Khan, there was already the fanbase that belived in Trek as a visionary show. The whole point of Khan was to subvert and question TOS. Starting with the Kobayashi Maru, it looks at the hero archetype of Kirk. The show points out Kirk did many thing with huge impacts and wide ranging consequences for individuals and civilizations- basically flying by the seat of his pants. We don't get to see how things turn out in the long run. Any one of a number of Kirk's decisions could have blown back. In this case, we have a very questionable decision Kirk made years ago- to put a group of world conquering Augments on a radom plantet to build a civilization because Kirk sort of admires them- and have it blowback terribly. It begs the question- of all those world transforming decisions Kirk made, how many of themk actually worked out well? We don't know cause we never see the follow up. Over the course of the movie, Kirk undergoes a "hero's journey" but an unconventional one. The movie begins with Kirk sort of highlighting his own belief in his exceptionalism. And the question that is opened up- was it that Kirk is just THAT kind of unique hero, or was it just cheating? It's an open question. By the end of the movie, Kirk realizes that in fact, a lot of the times he's just been damn lucky. And some cases are no win scenarios- or at lest, you can't win without having to lose something of value. This was highlighted by Spock's death of course, but at the time, the audience believed this WAS the death of Spock. And Khan himself who kirk had admired is a darfk mirror of Kirk. His belief in his own exceptionalism is what made him a conqueror, and know he (somewhat rightly) blames kirk for abandoning him to his fate. Kirk is fighting Khan, but he's also fighing his own shadow self. Kirk having a kid very much lines up with this. All those short romances and seductions. The idea of Kirk having a kid and struggling to live up to the change that requires, that he didn't want to be tied to the consequences of his actions, is VERY much in keeping with central conceit of the movie. In the way you guys talk about when you have brought it up, it seems like you missed what they were going for there. This is a subject that comes up in criticism. There is a difference between understanding what a movie or media was trying to do, and saying why you didn't think it worked. Or saying the execution failed to illuminate what they were trying to do. But missing the intent is different. When people say to others, "you didn't get the movie" this is often criticized as a lame defense. BUT, I think it very much can be valid. If a movie is going for satire and one assumes it's meant to be played straight and thus you think it failed , you're judging the movie incorrectly because your basing your standards on assumptions about what they're trying to execute and saying they failed. As an example, it would be like watching the 60s Batman show and saying it failed as a detective adventure show, not understanding its supposed to be a camp comedy. You disliked the aspect of Kirk having a son because you feel it recontextualizing the character in a way you don't like. You didn't seem to understand that was exactly what they were trying to do, and the entire movie was very much a questioning of the underlying mythos of TOS and Kirk in particular. Now had you got that and still disliked it because of the execution or just not liking the themes of the movie, that's different. But it very much seems from the way you talk about it that you dislike it because you felt it seemed inconsistent with the character you knew, and put him in a light that changed him- when that was very much the point. Relating this to DS9, I wonder how you wil feel if revelations about characters change your assumptions about them or reveal them to be more morall grey then you assumed. If that happens, it's not that it's bad writing because it's careless with the characters- it's because you don't like the direction they are taking. A final note- The tone of this sounds much more personal then I intend. Please understand I am critiquing ideas, but not either of you personally. None of this is intended in a personal or negative way, but I realize the tone might come off as sounding like a personal attack which i don't intend at all. I like the fact that you guys are straightforward in your opinions, compared to so many reactions channel where the reactor just fawns over whatever media is suggested realizing that is what the audience "wants" I understand it's also possible I misunderstood what you were saying, that you did get the idea but you were criticizing it for some reason I missed.

solid episode in an up and down season.

Regarding the Crusher/Picard lore; Wesley was initially conceived as possibly being Picard's son he didn't know about thanks to an affair with Dr. Crusher, casting doubts on what really happened with Jack.

The Picard and Crusher relationship might be a tad retconned by this episode.

34:44 Jean Luc remembered how he used to feel, and she "heard" that.

"This is my dead-end job!" ROTFL!!

OK, I have to address this. Calling Riker "authoritarian" here is a terrible take. Kirk has done things that are, without exaggeration, a BILLION times worse than what Riker threatened to do. Kirk armed primitives to fight a proxy war, he upended multiple civilizations because he didn't like the way they did things(Apple, Cloud Minders), he created a situation in Taste of Armageddon that could have led to cities being nuked. Sure he did that with the intent they would find real war too distasteful and stop, and it worked, but what if it hadn't? The Prytt abducted 2 starfleet officers. That was a straight up act of war. And what was Riker's response? Well first he INSISTED on a diplomatic response, and very politely tried to contact their government. They shut down that approach. Then he tried working with the Kes to quietly find and extract his people. Then he tried to set up a mediation between the 2 countries, only resorting to abducting their security minister, not to threaten or detain her but just to force the conversation, when nothing else worked. He made assurances the Federation would not be getting involved with either side to quell their paranoia. And when it was clear they weren't going to cooperate, did he threaten to keep Lorin captive until Picard and Crusher were returned? Did he threaten to bomb Prytt cities, or bring an army to invade and occupy their territory? No. He threatened to SCAN their continent, TALK to their people, and send down away teams to INVESTIGATE what happened to Crusher and Picard. What exactly was he supposed to DO!?!? Again, the Prytt committed an act of WAR, and Riker exhausted every available diplomatic option before resorting to the mildest of threats(invading their privacy) to get their cooperation. He never threatened to hurt or detain a single person. How is that authoritarian? He simple said they would be back to conduct an extensive search for their people. Riker was a textbook starfleet officer here. OK, now that that's done. I do like this episode. High B tier. The Kes and Prytt are one of the more ridiculous races they've come across, but their childishness and paranoia are amusing at least, but of course the meat of the episode is Crusher and Picard. I think both actors do a fantastic job here, and it's probably the best exploration of how they feel about each other on the series. Still, with eps like Lessons and even Inner Light(even though that was someone else's life) in the rear view mirror, bringing up this will they/won't they dynamic again, digging deeper into it than ever before, and then just ending with the status quo again, it feels like a step back. I like the episode, but I have to ask, what does it accomplish? Why push this far just to back off again? So again, while I do like the episode, the "reset button" holds it back for me.

So sad we've seen so little of their relationship throughout the series. But perhaps the rarity is what makes episodes like these feel so special.

Re the Emmy, Star Trek has only one won that recognises the writing and that was for The Animated Series (best children’s series or something, which does include the storytelling). All the rest of the dozens of wins from the franchise were for hair, makeup, sound, effects etc.

Pissing myself at Josh saying Worf’s dragged Picard and Crusher in the trash bin and emptied it I think your banter in the intro is turning into the best part of these reactions

There's a small moment here that I love, between about 25:50 and 26:00 in the episode runtime (at least on Amazon's timer), where Crusher hands her tricorder to Picard without him asking for it. They never acknowledge it, but it's just a nice moment of them using their psychic connection for teamwork, without even necessarily realizing it.

josh a planet with 1/10 of earth can't be have an atmosphere (mars with 1/2 earth can't hold its atmosphere) and 10 times earth you can stand on it (uranus ~14x earth mass)

I hate those tea cups. You’ll dribble all over yourself.

As for the "three other women...": Vash, Nella Darren, and Eline (his wife as Kaimen)? When you were reminiscing about "Lessons" during the discussion I thought you might mention what you noticed at the time: Nella Darren and Beverly Crusher have a strikingly similar physicality, and that for someone who "doesn't have those feelings anymore," he definitely has a type. Also, with 8-10 weeks left of TNG (18 eps), are we on pace to get Generations before the end of the year? Definitely flying by.

(TO MYSELF) ... don't ... say... anything. This is a great S7 episode. It explores things hinted at before and also having the characters mature over the series to really be honest with each other. This episode couldn't be a S3, S5, etc. episode. It had to be here when both characters have had established loves and a cultivated relationship to finally "talk about it." And to go... maybe our wants... cannot overcome our logics. Great episode. Love character building episodes.

TNG was cancelled because they wanted to make TNG a regular cinematic experience and give way to new shows. Now, for my take on the romance of this episode: Beverly and Jean-Luc were enthralled by the campfire—consumed by it. It was a fire of passion and romance, their feelings laid bare in the most intimate way possible. Fast forward to the dinner scene: once again they’re lit by fire, but this time by candlelight—a more restrained and confining symbol of romance, not the free-roaring blaze of a campfire. Beverly, ever the wild spirit, teases Jean-Luc to surrender to his true feelings. Jean-Luc, ever the dutiful captain, decides to finally give this long-held love a chance. But then Beverly realizes what’s happening: she has compromised the man who embodies duty and responsibility. And though she wants this romance too, she feels wrong for asking him to set aside the mantle he carries. So she shuts it down. And so we arrive at the final image—Jean-Luc alone, snuffing out the last flame of romance. Left in the dark, he embodies the loneliness of duty, responsibility, and the burden of command.

So, I'm writing this after finishing the reaction but before hearing their discussion, so maybe they'll get into this, but after watching this and recently revisiting 'Lessons' with this channel, wouldn't it have been better writing at that last scene if it had been Dr. Crusher wanting to start the relationship and for Captain Picard to turn her down, having 'learned his lesson' with Lt. Commander Daren about relationships with someone under his command?

Star Trek: The Next Generation (1987–1994) Total Awards Won: 33 Total Nominations: 87 Notable Awards: 19 Emmy Awards, 2 ASCAP Film and Television Music Awards, 1 Cinema Audio Society Award, 2 Hugo Awards, 6 Saturn Awards, 1 Peabody Award, 2 Youth in Film Awards Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (1993–1999) Total Awards Won: 12 Total Nominations: 52 Notable Awards: 2 Emmy Awards, 2 ASCAP Film and Television Music Awards, 1 American Society of Cinematographers Award, 2 Saturn Awards, 5 Universe Reader’s Choice Awards Star Trek: Voyager (1995–2001) Total Awards Won: 20 Total Nominations: 78 Notable Awards: 7 Emmy Awards, 3 ASCAP Film and Television Music Awards, 3 Hollywood Makeup Artist and Hair Stylist Guild Awards, 1 International Monitor Award, 1 Peabody Award, 2 Golden Satellite Awards, 3 Saturn Awards, 1 Youth in Film Award Babylon 5 (1994–1998) Total Awards Won: 8 Total Nominations: ~20 (exact number varies by source) Notable Awards: 2 Emmy Awards, 1 Hugo Award, 4 Saturn Awards, 1 Universe Reader’s Choice Award

When I was thirty I had a PAPER ROUTE.

Love this episode... the next one (Force of Nature) can be erased from cannon.

The older I get, the more horrifying a 'one world government' sounds. I think the show needs that conceit to simplify writing episodes of Star Trek, but realistically I think planets would almost always have diversity of beliefs and customs that would not allow for that without significant authoritarianism. Actually, it'd be interesting if a Trek-ish scifi show had most planets with at least a few major governments , even if they all often have alliances.

oh my thats unfortunate having to read out what looks to be a couple of spoilers from the patron takes

I like the development we get between Picard & Crusher and some of their shared history. But I severely dislike the B story with the Kes on the Enterprise.

Beverly also had to do a similar type of climbing in Chain Of Command. There's a lot i love about this one, and for me it's worth a B.

Is this the third episode they are trapped underground and in a cell together? Trilogy!

The writers included the bit about feeling nausea because they were anticipating people at home asking, "If they can hear each other's thoughts, why don't they just move away from each other?" So that's there only to answer that question. Of course, there's simpler answers like maybe distance doesn't matter, but they were writing on a deadline, thought of the one potential objection from the audience that they did, wrote an answer to it and finished their script.

I ALWAYS felt I liked this episode more than most of the fandom! There's honestly hardly anything I can say I dislike about it and a rewatch made me like it more. A+

It’s always implied that Bev , JLP, and Jack were friends. Had a relationship together.

Writer Nick Sagan went on to write more science fiction, and he's also notable for one other fact. His father, Carl Sagan, was part of the team that created the Voyager spacecraft and sent it beyond the solar system. On Voyager is the "golden record" which contains sounds and images of Earth. When he was a child, Nick's parents got him to record a message to any potential extraterrestrial friends: "Hello from the children of planet Earth."

The sex scoreboard was excited because it looked liked TNG would finally end the "Blue-Ball" run of eps. BUT NO. No change, no bangin' boppin', boinkin', nor bedonkin'.

The sound seemed somehow quieter than usual to me.

What would TA think of a "Top 10 TNG scenes list" as part of, or an additional end of series ranking? Josh mentioned the idea (again) in this review, and it would allow you to pay respect and give credit to moments like the Fire Scene here, even when the episode itself may not rate high overall. Besides, I'll wage that you both, like most of us, will have a hard time "letting TNG go," so a little extra time might be nice. Would take a bit of effort to make a list (community can help!) but might be a cherry on top of final series reviews!

I actually tink think what she witnessed in "Lessons" is what makes Beverly so cautious and back away from the possibility. The only time she witnesses a deep connection from Picard she sees it end after and dangerous away mission and sees the other person leave the ship, That's certainly not a positive indicator on what might happen after exploring a serious relationship with Picard while serving together. As to why Picard was more open to it. With Neela it's a very much quick relationship, one that hasn't allowed immediate connection to simmer. His feelings for Beverly have deep history. It's very much something that might make him at first forget his general reticence.

TNG season 7 did have to reach out and expand their writing pool even more than for season 6 (which was the addition of another series being created with many of the same personnel both in physical development and script development. Moore and Braga were largely absent from the full writing of early season 7 (this is when the lion share of the creative development of the first TNG film would be done). So two of their most experienced writers work would need to be supplemented.

I used to wonder why they'd even bother doing an episode like this this late in the series but I guess Kesprytt times called for Kesprytt measures.

So I guess you guys missed it or didn't remember, but it was aready stated that he met beverly first, there was some chemistry, and Picard was the one who introduced her to Jack. Picard was also the one who ordered jack to repair the nacelle which lead to his death, making it extra weird. Nothing nefarious, jack was the best man for the job but still- you can't go after the widow of your friend who you ordered to his death. This is also why Picard felt a certain way towards Wesley, the need to act as father figure because he was the one who to,d wesely about his father's death. This has all been already established in small bits and pieces of dialogue from the past but I guess you guys didn't realize that. The info wasn't the details of what happened, but making Picard's feelings explicit and revealing them to Beverly.

The shooting for Star Trek: Generations literally began for the cast 1 week after they wrapped on TNG.

Can we give it up for director Jonathan Frakes for this episode? Master class, imo.

To be fair to Riker, he didn't say Starfleet was going to invade the Prit territory. He said lots of ships would show up with lots of questions from lots of people (naturally, because 2 of Starfleet's officers are missing, probably abducted). He played to their xenophobic fears but didn't threaten them with all out invasion.

Might of missed it, but no mention of S3 E18 - Allegiance? . Picard is even dressed the same in the final scene with Beverly, just missing the dancing.

Season 7 was known for trying out scripts from a whole new pool of writers.

Too bad they didn’t bring back Josh’s favorite actor one more time…

ughhh, even the mention of that scene in Violations caused me to flinch... trigger warning guys! (joke. But not about me flinching)

Up until this episode, there were conspiracy theories that Wesley was Picard's son. This episode definitively ended that theory, as Picard would've learned that from her. Did they really not mention he and Jack were best friends until now? I kinda felt like that was known since season one, but I can't remember exactly when I learned it.

I love analyzing personalities, and you guys touched on the reason why Captain Jellico didn't care for Riker... they're very similar. Jellico and Riker need a First Officer like Data... NOT one like Worf. Worf would feed into the Alpha Male aggression that Riker hides behind that smile. I picture alot of "Mr. Work. Fire." moments with those 2 as Captain and his First. Worf isn't an Alpa. He's too introverted. But he'll back up an Alpha. Data would bring logic to the position. Ultimately, the Captain of the Flagship needs to have a cool head. Riker would make a good Captain, but not when diplomacy counts.