UNCUT - The Circle (DS9 S2E2) | Star Trek Journey 281

some thoughts on the Starfleet Admiral not being a "good guy" here. He orders Sisko to withdraw from DS9. that IMO is a good directive. The alternative is to literally engage in a direct battle against Bajoran forces once they reach the station. That would be extremely out of character for the Federation. They're there to help, not to kill Bajorans. If the Bajorans want the Federation gone, they leave. if they insisted on staying, it would send a really bad message to future civilizations wanting to join the Federation. it'd turn from a choice into being forced into it. That's not what the Federation is.

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version Well the question is if no one has an orgasm does it count as sex? In my own count, I never count an encounter if the person I am with does not have a big O (and of course this never happened). In this ep we have a bigger question, what if neither party finishes?. The Sex Board has determined yes it still counts. Lame boring sex is still sex. The sex score board Chief 1 Keiko 1 Quark 1 Odo 1 Kira 1 +1 new GUEST: Numbnuts 1 +1 new DETAILS: We are guessing numbnuts had the best time of his life, except that time he read War and Peace, but okay bangin, well not bangin more like sorta bumbin into, happened.

How does one go about syncing your reaction video with my copy of the episode? Or do I just press play on my DvD copy at the same time as pressing play on here?

Cuz they're menacing an evil characters

The sad thing is, Phillip Anglin is one helluva good actor. He played The Elephant Man on Broadway, as well as numerous other strong performances overall illustrious career. Yet here he comes up as a flat directionless caricature of a 70s "peace, love, dope" youth pastor.

Nurse Ratchet- The Bitch who Broke Jack. She is excellent in this role. Gets better with each episode!

Waterboarding was not really in the public consciousness until after 2001, in the aftermath of 9/11 and the investigation into prisoners of war were being tortured by the United States.

Did anyone tell you guys that Frank was Skeletor in Masters of the Universe

That scene with Jaro and Winn together was one of the few times in Trek two Oscar winners were the only ones on screen for an entire scene

I really did like the scene in Keira‘s quarters, everybody showing up the Bashir, chief O’Brien, DAX, Odo even quark what a really well thought out scene in Keira‘s quarters

Am I wrong, but did Kira think Bareil was taking her to his bed when he was letting her have an orb experience?

Unfortunately, I think Philip Anglim as Vedek Bareil just gives a terrible performance, and it makes any interaction with him fall flat. I could see a Bareil/Kira shipping, but not with Anglim's flat, boring performance. It's like comparing most actor's performances of a Vulcan against Leonard Nimoy or Robin Curtis or Suzie Plackson (or even Kirstie Alley). The others just tend not to "get it," and think that Vulcan means emotionless and totally boring. Anglim's interpretation of a serene monk in a monastery is unnecessarily BORING.

It a bit sad that the friendship Kira was talking about happend mostly offscreen during season 1 ;)

Watching most of season 2 for the first time I’m loving this 3 parter, especially in this one where they are slowly ramping up the stakes and the tension. The meeting between Quark and Odo shows this perfectly, where even Quark is about to abandon everything and flee the station. I think the best part is the awesome scenes at the beginning that show how highly the rest of the crew think of Kira. The scene where everyone is in her quarters must be so hard to pull off as an actor. I’m not sure but I think the Kira and Vedek Bereil part is supppsed to be a love story? Though yeah he comes off as the kind of guy to lock people in his basement and get them to put lotion on him.

Star Trek 6 still catching strays!

your worried about 2010? you still have Voyager and Enterprise to get slog through, Those will be hard enough for you, I think.

Badger thoughts: Vedek Bareil, you so boring people went to Data's poetry recital just to get away from you. Vedek Bareil, you so robotic Dr Soong mistook you for one of his kids. Vedek Bareil, you so wooden Treebeard tried to hump your leg.

Sometimes when people ask me what is your favorite breaking bad episode I instantly say dead Freightt you know the train job story

There's something about Vedic Bareil's acting that just felt off, and then I realized: his delivery of lines sounds exactly like that part in Team America: World Police where one of the women tells the main guy: "If you said you'd never die, I'd make love to you right here and now." And it pushes in on the main guy and in the most wooden flat way he says: "I promise I will never die." That's the line delivery Vedic Bareil seems to constantly give. ;)

S2 puts many of the DS9 playing pieces on the game board. S3 tells us the rules of the game. You can't skip S2 for this reason. However, I hadn't watched S2 in 30 years before 2025. The show becomes unpredictable after S2. You both have made some guesses about future DS9 which are accurate. But the context of how that happens means that it still wasn't what you actually meant.

If Quark doesn't walk into Odo's office to tip him off about the Kressari, this whole plot ends in a giant L for Bajor and the Federation. A butterfly flaps it's wings...

It's funny you guys talked about not being able to pin down specific events to certain episodes in multi-parters, cause I totally did that in my take. I coulda SWORN Quarks branding happened in this episode and not the previous, thus I alluded to it in my take.

I was the prophets assuming people she knows talking in their voices like we've seen before, Bereil had no influence on it, and Wynn was there because its a monestary and thats where they all live

And No A-B plot

Louise Fletcher is awesome as Winn, every scene with her gives me the creeps and makes me a bit sick to my stomach

Ah, the good old days, when Star Trek had complex characters and plots and wasn’t trying to shove a message down your throat.

Great discussion at the end regarding tact and subtletly in writing. A lost art, let's be honest.

FANtastic reaction guys! A peek into the greatness of this series!

I think you should just go with your gut feeling on whether to rate multi-episode arcs separately or together. Some two-parters feel like one story that got split in half, and others feel like two unique episodes that happen to be connected.

Josh thinks all Bajorans look alike?! Bigot! Lol

I knew you'd love the scene in Kira's quarters. Great episode! Technically it could be argued that your favourite Star Trek movie so far was a bridge, since 2, 3, and 4 are considered a trilogy (and of those 3 is my favourite too, even though i love 6 best...*coughs*.

I didn’t watch your ST VI reaction but I’m starting to think I should.

Stop kicking it, it's already dead! Show me on the doll where Star Trek VI hurt you. Your pain runs deep. Let us explore it ...together.

Really loved the opening scene with Kira. All of them playing off each other. I think it works this early because of the reaction and realization on her face. It's like Oh, shit these people are my friends. Later she wouldn't hesitate to call them her friends.

sisko is the king of loopholes 😂

Oh I really enjoyed this. The scene with Minister Jaro and Winn was fabulous - almost pantomime! Great shots, even the uses of the turbolifts with Kira departing and maintaining eye contact and Quark being cut off mid-sentence. Great politics, great powerplays. The start of great things to come and another important foundation stone laid in the series.

Love this episode. The scene after the credits is one of the best of the season. Vedek Winn being super passive aggressive on the bridge is great. Gotta give DS9 credit for trying something different to kick off a season

This trio is the first glimpse you get not only of what DS9 COULD BE, but of what it WILL BE.... at its very least. It ranks among the best of the first two seasons (regrettably, a majority of Season two won't measure up) but when measured against the whole of the series.... well, I doubt it will make your top 10, but I guess we'll see in half a dozen seasons. The show gets MUCH better. The low ebb of seasons like 4, 5, 6, even 7 are higher than the high peaks of seasons 1 and 2, with a handful of exceptions. ("Duet" is, I think one of the 10 best episodes of DS9, perhaps of Star Trek as a whole, but that's an exception to the rule.) But yes, Season 2 gives us a decent look, some glimpses of what the show can. be and will be, and the multi-parter ("More than two parts! *GASP!* While B5 was putting together entire season-long [and longer] arcs) to start the season is a good example of what DS9 will, in a couple seasons, consistently be.

So... what you're saying is this episode would be better if it were a Cold War allegory

Frank Langella was just too big a star to not be the villain, and you can see how he and Louise Fletcher are just better than the typical tv actor. DS9 was lucky to get them.

last comment- when you get there, don't assume a negative framework for later trek. It has its flaws but it has its strengths, especially Picard in my opinion. This season of DS9, there was a general directive to the writers to do more stories that were unique to the setting of DS9- in other words, stories that couldn't have been done on TNG. You know from comments the show gets more serialized as it goes on and becomes its own thing. Its sort of funny hearing from (forget whose Josh and Alex) that is a concern, because the weak stuff from season 1 was very much generic trek plots that could have been done on TNG. One the one hand, you guys didn't like those, on the other hand you seem to be saying you're worried you want see that. As the show goes on, while there is more serialization (and though of course a lot of it involved Bajor and Cardassia it goes beyond that) there are also (stand alone) episodes but they sort of feel incorporated into the ongoing plot of the story and develop characetr arcs, much more so then in TNG where in DS9 its relatively easy to (place) any particular episode in terms of where we are in the broader plot and in the development of character arcs. I'm just saying it seems a but odd becausd you seem to be expressing contradictory desires. Since you're main things is execution however, I hope you do like it because its executed very well. This season represents a huge amount of growth for the show. There are still a few episodes that feel like season 1 episodes, maybe like six of those? But for the most part the goog epsiodes are really good, on part with what we've seen do far. I think its also worth remembering serailzied story telling was just starting to be a thing at this point. Part of the reason the show was not as well received at the time as later on was because of the weak opening, because it wasnt TNG (Voyager tried to be a TNG clone and is much worse off for it) and because as we go on people got confused with the heavy serialization where they didnt know what was going on if they werent following. Back then it wasnt as easy to check in on the interent or watch episodes you missed. But overall I think (and assume this is what others feel) that DS9 does a great balance of serialized storytelling AND traditional episodic format, but it more and more becomes its own thing different in feel and execution from TNG, and the shades of grey you noted is very much part of that. The balance between serialized storytelling and individual episodes is comparable to Buffy which you judged too quickly as the first season was aimed at a younger auidence and the show grows with its audeince. There are actually a number og writers from DS9 who went on to write for both GOT and Buffy- I think DS9 did Star Trek GOT style incredibly well, and in some cases later shows tried to replicate tht formula without as much success. Tidbits from Memory Alpha- Writer Peter Allan Fields based the scene in Kira's quarters, where everyone comes to say goodbye to her, on a scene in the 1935 film A Night at the Opera, starring the Marx Brothers. Director Corey Allen shot this scene in one continuous uninterrupted take. When the episode was edited together, the scene was intercut with various close-ups and reverse angles, but the master shot of the scene was one long take, something of which Allen was extremely proud Continuity error where the runabout previously was stated to only be able to beam up two people at a time whereas the entire away team is beamed during the rescue scene. I guess we can assume Chief made modifications to it before the mission for that purpose.

As Josh mentions, waterboarding is (clean) torture so if part of the purpose is to horrify others into compliance its less effective. Historically waterboarding wasn't a big thing so perhaps the knowledge of how effective it is more recent. Also, while its (clean) you can esily accidentally kill the person since its not simulated drowning, it IS drowning. If you want to go trek logic, perhaps other species are less anatomically susceptible to water boarding. Like they need less oxygen or can get it and hold it in for longer. Or have gills or something.

On torture- 1. One of the ironies here is that like Picard, Kira doesn't really know what Sisko would do, ay best she would guess. I suppose she might know about the prime directive and not knowing the Circle was being supplied by the Cardassians, would think Starfleet couldn't get involved which would encourge Jaro. But I think the point was to show Kira's loyalty to Sisko and how the Circle had become like the thing they hated. As far as tortute not bing reliable- well it depends. It would be nice if it were totally useless but that's not quite the case. What will happen is the person will usually first lie, then eventually tell you what you want to here, then tell you anything. People who are expereinced at this might be able to tell the difference. But even if that isn't the case- let's take the ticking time bobm scenario. The person knows where a bomb is. So they will first lie, then tell the truth, then tell you anything they think you want to hear. Let's say you have other intelligence that suggests where the bobm may be. If the person gives you several locations, based on other factors, you can figure out whats most likely and send teams to all locations. Or if there is specific information you want- the person will give you false information but there will be real information there as well. So you get something that you can use. And if you have multiple people you are torturing, and they all give you false info and real info, you can see what overlaps to hone in on whats likey to be true. So it sort of depends. No, its not a reliable way to get exact information from one person, but unfortunately there are some scenarios where you can use it to narrow down or get close to information you want. Its not totally useless, and it can be combined with other means of intelligence as a tool. As far as waterboarding, I suppose there is a cruelty aspect for many cases. Again, it depends. If you have some time, you can use various methods to get different lists of information which can be useful. The idea that it is totally ineffective is sort of useful propaganda against torture that hopefully would discourge it, but not 100 percent sccurate.

Again, I think you guys are so used to (religion is bad) sorry no quote keys on this laptop for some reason, but the treatment of Bajoran religion here and the Prophets is must more nuanced then something like Who Watches The Watchers. There are obviously people like Winn who use religion for bad purposes but it's not supposed to be like the Bajoran religion is totally evil and brainwashing. That might be jarring for you guys, but the DS9 approach is much more somplex and open to interpretation.

To be clear, no one has control over the orbs or the Prophets. Bareil might come off as creepy but I think he's just suppoed to come off as a sincere religious dude whose interested in Kira. He had a vision from the orb involving Kira that maybe suggested they should be together and believing firmly in the Prophets he would have no reason to think the Prophets wouldn't lead her along the same path. The vedeks are the priests who are the religious order worshipping the prophets but they don't control them or even really understand them outside of their own religous context and the prophecies and visions Bajorans have been receiving fro the orbs for centuries or even Millenia

Now Dukat not having a problem with the rescue of Nalas makes sense. The Cardassians had an active plan going on to undermine the Bajoran government and get rid of the Federation, so they weren't going to mess that up by prematurely making an issue of the jailbreak. I don't think Jaro knows where the weapons are coming from; he legitmately hates the Cardassians. He's getting them from the Krissari and doesn't care to know where they are getting them.

One thing to appreciate about the Admiral commanding Sisko to evacuate by proxy of the Prime Directive, is that it could potentially be setting up a Picard moment. That's not to say that Picard absolutely would comply; Picard's morality would probably cause him to intervene on behalf of the Bajorans as well. But we have Sisko presented with a common crisis that Picard faces and the audience gets to see specifically how this show's Commander responds. And it's a good response.

FYI - Fun Fact: Stephan Macht (General Krim) was the main contender to become Captain Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek: TNG. He was favored by Gene Roddenberry for the role, but ultimately the part of course went to Patrick Stewart.

I think the Cardys are meant to be a dry desert lizard?

As you guys said, the Farewell scene would be more impactful if done later, but in this instance, it underscores what Sisko said at the end of last season: these people live and work together, and are becoming friends. Considering how incredibly different they all are, in history, social life, experience, etc., far more than any Starship based crew, who are all there for the same reason and with similar training. I think the DS9 crew's believable friendships is one of the show's best accomplishments this early on.

"Sisko to security, I need 2 casualties.....I mean security officers to join me on a rescue mission to Bajor" I'll say upfront, I don't think Chekote is a "badmiral". He's got a job to do and rules to follow as well. He's just being by the book, but the problem is the book sucks sometimes. As for Bareil, it's not like he can control what the orb shows Kira, or him. Unless of course he lied and that wasn't the Orb of Prophecy and Change. Maybe it was the Orb of Rizz and Reproduction. Granted if he had a similar vision, perhaps he was hoping to get lucky. There could also be other ways to interpret it. Perhaps being naked isn't so much sexual but instead an expression of vulnerability as they're surrounded by bloodthirsty politicians. A sign they should be allies since they're surrounded by enemies. Hard to say for sure. Emissary showed us the Prophets are pretty cryptic. There is definitely a renewed sense of camaraderie among the crew this season. I like that they have found ways to utilize the whole cast, even Quark, in convincing ways through these first 2 parts. And yeah, the scene in Kira's quarters was fantastic. The cast is really starting to gel at this point. Finally that "stay as many days as you wish, even a week if necessary" is the perfect distillation of Winn's polite bitchiness. Louise Fletcher sold that character so well.

👍

I guess Majel Barrett's "and now the continuation" didn't tip the hat to a three-parter! Glad it stayed a surprise. Also, waterboarding didn't really become part of the zeitgeist until the "war on terror" and how the US treated its prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, etc. It certainly existed but the average 90s writer at Paramount wouldn't necessarily be as aware of it as people are today.

The giva away about this being a 3 parter was when the narrator said and now the continuation.

From here onwards DS9 starts slowly coming into it's own. I've always like this storyline, even when I was 12 (1994). Now I can appreciate it more and it's a pleasure seeing you guys enjoying it. Regarding the Cardassian plot, the quotation of that Rule of Aquisition last episode was not casual.

And the scene in Kira’s quarters is the best in all of Star Trek, IMO

Bout time! Lol!😂

That Quark-Odo scene where he's worried about leaving is a nice callback to Emissary, when he tells Odo "when governments fall, people like me are lined up and shot."

Always loved this Circle storyline. I feel this is when the show started to gel for me. Instead of TNG storylines grafted on the space station setting they have started to craft the story for this setting and these characters.

From TNG onwards, they were rather inconsistent with the comm system. Sometimes they pressed a button, sometimes they tapped a communicator, sometimes they just spoke at the ceiling. At least in TOS, Kirk always punched a button. ;)