UNCUT - Descent Part II (TNG S7E1) | Star Trek Journey 278

Descent was my fav episode as a 10 year old kid.. this episode made me subscribe... sucks you don't like it.. but I acknowledge as a 10 year old world views didn't effect me.. data episodes were always great

I was disappointed that Alex and Josh didn't offer any praise at all for Brent Spiner's acting. I thought Brent did a good job even though the episode wasn't that good.

I REALLY can't wait until you guys hit DS9 s02e26. That's how you do 2+ partners. Certainly a meh end to a great s6 cliffhanger

I think they go warp 5 or 7 so they arrive at the planet during the morning shift. Instead of going Max warp and getting everywhere fast and at midnight

Just an FYI - this episode was filmed in Simi Valley, CA and the "House of the Book" building was used to depict the Borg compound, this location was also used as Camp Khitomer in Star Trek 6 (your favorite Star Trek movie)

this episode landed flat for me 30 years ago. i agree with all of your criticisms

Yeah no where is an E warrented I'd say a dissapointin C, If their Justice in the world 2 more season 7 shows will get an E

Yeah Part two's were never TNG's strong sense, it seems they put all thir energies into great Part 1's but never have a resolution in mind and they all seem that way, I think Chain of Command was their strongest two parter. This was better than times Arow but thats Faint Praise

Alex has tickled me again. “Pulaski in a bar somewhere…” pulling a face reading Crusher’s report on commanding the ship.

I mean its cool to have crusher in charge but it would make more sense to put anexperienced tactical officer in chrg

DS9’s season 2 ending episode is a very impactful one. All the others are leagues better than the season 1 finish too.

Good Part 2s are what ds9 and voyager are for

It was a bit unrealistic that the enterprise was only missing 73 crew at one point....but had no one better qualified was there to take over tactical and command

DS9 wont feel like a small universe for long

there probably werent a lot of borg on the ship given how many were on the planet and that seems to be the only ship Lore's group has

spock and uhura did some music

or if Lore gave him some positive emotions, like affection for Lore/. I don't think the torture was actually Lore shutting off Data;s emotions, but giving him weakness and pain instead

would Data at that point have belived Lore or feel like he should be loving him given everything that happened here?

The I love you brother from Lore at first seemed obviously insincere- but the emotion chip was damaged, and maybe for Lore that's the extent of love he can feel. Lore did seem a little different in this episode possibly due to the chip. Less emotionally unstable and more suave and in control. I figure the emotion chip has to be a lockout chip- otherwise it doesnt make a lick of sense technologically. But maybe for \lore it helped him stabilize his emotions

its damaged but that doesnt mean it couldnt possibly be repaired

he did take the chip. Lore was making a desperate idol threat. Data may not know how to install it yet thoigh. and wary of his first experience with emotion

woulkdnt data be much stronger then the borg holding him

the borg have different ships. The cubes are the main tactical ships. I beleive this is called an assimilator, a ship that presumably tracks down and assimilates other ships usually

the metaphaisc shielding is from the episode you guys were referencing

not usually that easy when they have the wisdome of the collective but they are primarily operating as inmdividuals for the first time

she was a science officer not a tactical officer weapons operation isnt her thing

I suspect the Borg collective detected the issue caused by Hugh and quickly cut off the entire ship from the rest of the collective, like you'd amputate a limb to stop the spread of infection. So it was able to spread through the ship but not to the rest of the collective.

A real descent in quality, one could say.

I think my opinion of “Descent Pt. 1”, which in retrospect is a banger of an episode, was affected by how bad “Descent Pt. 2” was and still is. D for “Descent”.

A long walk to nowhere, unfortunately, and a really disappointing follow-up to both "I, Borg" and "Brothers."

In my headcanon, Lore was lying about Hugh freeing the borg. It just doesn't make sense. They've assimilated countless individuals. why would one more matter?

Josh, your initial whiteboard reaction ended with, aight. Kind of C-tier energy. Did you psych yourself all the way down to E-tier during the rewrite discussion lol? Can't disagree with anything you guys brought up though, interesting ideas but organized in such a messy way it felt very flat and simply disjointed.

huh. see,s

Agree 100% about Lore being a colossal let down

I just had what might be a really cool re-write idea. Imagine Data completely embracing the evil. Lore finds Data in a dark room skinning Borg, creating a macabre look to everything. Lore starts to become horrified because Data is exceeding his own villainous behaviors. Lore starts to turn off the emotional carrier wave, but because Data was made to replace Lore, Data's "improved" programming assimilates the emotional programming without the need of an emotion chip (perhaps tied into his evolution in the Birthright episode). Lore then turns to Picard for help because Data is taking over and far more evil than him. Then Lore gives his own life because there is a particular component of his circuitry that will allow Data's programming to treat the emotion program as a virus and get rid of it for good. Lore's redemption.

Just want to say, thank you gentlemen. Really appreciate the work you guys do. Moving from 2 episodes a week to 3, and taking only a week between season finale and premiere. Can't be easy having careers and families while also making content like this that doesn't get like 10 millions views on youtube every video. These are always a highlight of my day, even if you hate the episode lol. Excited for more Star Trek journeys to come!

I loved this episode on first run and rewatching now it's hard to sit through. So slow, non-sensical, no one aside from Brent Spiner is given really anything at all to do (Crusher a bit, but nothing really exciting) - I'm ok with the Borg being "different" and not quite as fearsome (I feel like after BOBW they HAD to change in some way) but the scenes with the individual drones here feel like filler. A more interesting subplot with the prisoners in the cell, more of the underground resistance, just...please, anything more. As others have mentioned this was a big missed opportunity. Solid idea, crap execution. Could have used some more rewrites and a faster pace in editing as well.

yeah, it took me only 30 years to rewatch this episode. made me think how old I become and that I wont rewatch it again... strange feeling. Enjoyed Capt. Crusher though, liked how calm and focused she stayed during a huge crisis and that she listend to the others instead of having her rey-skywalking trough everything

TNG season 7 is pizza. There’s no bad pizza, it’s just less good.

I'm surprised you guys didn't give the pussification of the Borg an E unto itself. What a decline in weight class. From universal juggernaut in "Q Who" to bullies in an after-school special standing behind Lore who always is on the losing side.

You guys are spot on. Did not like the way it was written. Disappointing episode

Also, they knew going in Season 7 was going to be the end. And it shows 😩

Feels like scenes ended up shuffled around in the edit. Definitely stuff in this episode that was cut for time, especially all the Hugh stuff. It cuts from the cavern into the hall. No way that was a direct cut in the script.

E from you Josh, my god! Does Season 1 of DS9 seem so bad now😂. This is a B from me. Some Borg stuff i like, some i don't, i'm not crazy on them like a lot of fans, Lore i can take or leave, but for me it was the scenes on the Enterprise with Crusher and her skeleton crew i enjoyed most, and elevated it from what would have been a C.

I like how when the Borg start fighting Worf and Riker are picking off Borg from a sniper position. But...how did they know which Borg to shoot?🤔

Everytime anyone gets captured & their phasers taken away I always think to myself “ What if they had a season 1 type 1 phase in their boot?” Not to mention away missions like Riker was on in First Contact.

I think the second is as good as the first. And I think both are pretty good but not great.

James Horan is in both this episode and Suspicions. He uses the metaphasic shielding in this episode, and sabotoges it in the other...

I know many opinions of season 7 aren’t the best, but there are fabulous episodes in this season. Not all, but there are quite a few! Glad you are going in with open minds👍🏻👍🏻

Thinking on it now, I don't buy it that Hugh could have influenced the other drones like this. I think what would have happened is his individuality would have quickly been snuffed out again upon his reintegration with the other Borg.

There is nothing I hate more than wasted potential, and every episode I loathe suffers from that. It's why I hated Unification pt2 as well, for example.

30:30 If only you're a Klingon ship, you can enter the corona and then go to warp to destroy the ships pursuing you, like Kurn did... (Glad you guys made that joke right after! LOL)

Ugh, this plot is so stupid. There is no way the Borg would have survived thousands of years if "an imprint of individuality" would have wrecked them. This is the lowest "D" territory it can be without being "E" although it deserves it.

This is a disappointment, it’s a shame as part 1 is a lot of fun. This is just dull at times and exposition heavy. It’s an episode where the individual parts are greater than what the whole became.

Less Lore and the coke nail and more Hugh involvement in the episode

maybe im just a lore stan, but i never liked how starfleet just straight up dissassembles lore. if data has full personhood rights, then doesnt lore? and doesnt that make dissassembling lore capital punishment? without even a trial, apparently?

I know at least one or two of my favorite episodes is in season 7. Probably more I'm not thinking of

Got a fresh cup o' KAW-fee with my favorite Reeses peanut butter creamer, I am suitably elevated and gaining altitude. Let's go SEASON SEVEN!

Thank you! I feel so vindicated. I hated this when I saw it 32 years ago. I felt like I was in the minority for not appreciating Lore, whom I've always thought was a one note character, meet the Borg, whom I always thought were a weaker version of Doctor Who's Cybermen. I thought you guys would love this and I'm so glad you didn't. lol

Question: Based on episodes you've seen so far, is this the most disappointing part 2 to date? I feel like part 1 was pretty good and then they just squandered it all.

I think the whole thing with everyone hating on season 7 is that bad episodes weigh more heavily on people than good episodes when it comes to how people feel about a season. There are actually some very good episodes in Season 7, including some of the best in the show; but the stinkers are so repellent that they resemble the aftermath of a lactose intolerant man gorging on mexican food with extra sour cream; and so that's all people remember. I bet that when we get to some of those very good episodes people will be coming out of the woodwork to say 'oh I completely forgot that was in season 7'

The main problem with this episode for me is Lore vs Data was six years in the making and they dropped the ball. The final showdown and a dramatic end is a gift to any villain, and they did next to nothing at the end.

See, THIS is the kind of episode the Rewriters Room should have been saved for. The reason the segment wasn't a hit was trying to use it in every episode when the odd plot hole or writing misstep doesn't really warrant it. This whole ep needed a do over. Don't know if I'd give this an E, but it's D+ or so for me. Gotta ask though, you said that knowing what's waiting in part 2 will probably drag down your enjoyment of part 1 in future rewatches. Conversely, do you think you'll appreciate Redemption I more knowing how good part 2 of that episode was? So as for the things I do like in this episode, Captain Crusher was good, but I still wish she had found herself in that position because of circumstance instead of Picard's braindead plan. It would have made her rising to the occasion all the more rewarding. I agree that story was rushed but it was fine. I like the scene where Geordi and Data are remembering the sailing trip. It was also good to see Hugh again even if they did kind of waste him, especially by omitting a scene with Geordi. As for the scene where Data shuts down Lore, I will say I don't think the emotional impact of the scene was ruined for me. I get that Lore tried to kill Data just moments earlier, and definitely part of "I love you, brother" was one last manipulation tactic. However I do think on SOME level, Lore wasn't lying. Kind of like when Thanos sacrificed Gamora to get the soul stone, he clearly hated doing it, he just wasn't going to let it stop him from doing what he needed to. Now, obviously the execution was 100x better there, but I think it was the same idea. But beyond that, even if you think Lore had zero love for Data and was just using him, I think there's a great juxtaposition in that scene of Lore, who has the emotion chip and can feel emotions but is saying he loves his brother in this fake and manipulative way, vs Data who doesn't have the chip and can't feel emotions, and yet still seems to feel more sadness and regret for having to kill his own brother. As for why Hugh only affected a single ship, perhaps the entire collective isn't in constant contact, and there are safety measures/firewalls that go up if a local network on a single ship starts to go haywire. Isolate the problem. At any rate, it most likely means the plan from I, Borg wouldn't have worked. I generally agree with the other criticisms of this episode. Big letdown from a fairly promising part 1. The scene with Goval was maybe the one time where you understood why the borg chose to follow Lore. He's too much of a cartoony villain, and treating Data like a minion just destroyed the believability of anyone following him. Lore needed to be genuine in his intentions and show that he really wanted Data to join him, not just be under his thumb, then he would be sympathetic. A victim of his programming as Chris said. He's still be completely unstable and need to be stopped, but it would have worked a thousand times better.

Part 1 was excellent and is still one of my favorites, but part 2 dropped the ball. I've commented before that I feel sympathy for Lore as a victim of his own programming and that his own creator abandoned him and built another rather than trying to fix the original. I actually wanted to be a screenwriter in the 90s and I wrote a script for a TNG movie that brought back the idea of repairing Lore. It got to Jonathan Frakes, but never got moving forward. So I'm a failed screenwriter. This episode is basically character assassination of Lore and should not have been done that way. He had deeper potential for stories. All that having been said...Brent fucking Spiner killed it on both fronts!

"I love you, brother." That line gave me chills.

I don't hate this episode, but man, so much wasted potential here. Captain Beverly is the best part of it far and away, but everything else was rushed and fell a bit flat. Great ideas, poor execution overall.

So, someone must have already said so, but they were aware that TNG was ending this season. Fun fact, the actors were originally locked into a contract for 6 years. Once Season 6 ended, they had to renegotiate with the actors, who all wanted more money, of course (as they should). It was decided at that point that they'd only renegotiate for that last year and that after Season 7, they'd be launched into the movies. Another fun fact though: the idea of a TNG movie had been brewing since Season 4 just before Star Trek VI came out. They knew 6 was going to be the last TOS movie and they wanted to get the ball rolling on a TNG movie as soon as possible. This is the most chaotic point for the producers and showrunners at this point in the franchise. They had to create and shoot, pretty much all back to back: The final season of TNG and its finale Season 2 of DS9 The first TNG movie (Generations) AND Prep for and shoot the first season of Voyager.

Okay. At the beginning of the ep. The whole Lore, Data, Picard (and crew) talking. IF EVER there was a time for the the following phrase it was then......................" SHOOT HIM!!!!"

Josh is 100 percent correct, Hugh should have effected the whole Borg collective not just the ship. One line of dialog could have answered that instead of using our head canon.

When Descent pt 1 aired, I loved it. But after seeing pt 2, it dragged the entire 2 parter down with it and I've never been excited about it since. Not enough Hugh (didn't even get to see Geordi) , and not enough development with Lore and Data.

A couple of points: -Both William Shatner & Leonard Nimoy have attempted music careers. There’s a compilation album called “Spaced Out” that collects their various covers and original songs. I believe it’s still available on iTunes. -Regarding why only Hugh’s ship was affected-given the distance between the Federation & Borg space, it’s possible it took longer for Hugh’s individuality to reach the Collective and therefore the Borg were able to sever the connection before it did too much damage to the rest of the fleet.

I now realise that my life aboard the Enterprise was a waste. My quest to become human misguided. An evolutionary step in the wrong direction.

The CONTENT was fine-(ish?), and there's no scenes I dislike exactly. The pacing was AWFUL though. Everything feels rushed and crammed in, and I feel like they had too much content to work with. This could have been a three-parter and maybe should have been to allow the scenes to breathe and stretch. I also agree on a lot of dumb TV decisions with this one. How could they NOT include a scene with Gordie and Hugh!? This is a C+

They pretty much knew this was the last season from the beginning. They had to let everyone know for scheduling purposes, which included planning for the first TNG film.