FULL DISCUSSION - DS9 Season 1 Recap & Top 5 Episodes
Comments (87)
If given the choice to watch an episode from season 1 of DS9 or season 1 of TNG I’ll choose DS9 every time. I think part of the reason that you can’t recall a lot of specifics from DS9 season 1 episodes is that there’s so much new stuff going on and a lot to take in. When it first aired, you had a full week to digest and ponder what happened in that week’s episode, maybe even watch it a few times before the next one. With you guys watching episode after episode in short order, you don’t get the time to allow things to marinate, a downside to how we consume tv episodes these days. I didn’t think season 1 was great when it first aired, but it kept me intrigued until we got to the really good stuff. When you’ve finished the series you should come back and take another look at this season. I think you will find it wasn’t as dull as you think it is now.
The Shakar cell was just the name of her group. There were (realistically) many resistance groups, often with differing ideologies and tactics. Remember an entire planet was under occupation
Top 5 according to iMDB ratings- 1. Duet (9.0/10) 2. In the Hands of the Prophets (7.7/10) 3. Emissary (7.7/10) 4. Captive Pursuit (7.6/10) 5. Dax (7.1/10) Lowest according to iMDB ratings- 19. The Storyteller (6.0/10) 20. Move Along Home (5.8/10)
Completely agree with this listing
To summarize as usual Josh Alex Patrons 5 - Q-Less Vortex Captive Pursuit 4 - The Forsaken The Forsaken Progress 3 - Captive Pursuit Progress Emissary 2 - Progress Duet ITHOTP 1 - Duet Captive Pursuit Duet Not 100% sure but this might be the first time Josh and Alex's picks are closer to each other than the Patrons. But still, not a ton of variance. In a sea of mediocrity, even moderately good episodes shine like diamonds
One thing I like what you guys do and something we never did when these episode first aired is making note of who directed the episodes and what previous episodes they did before. You give us awesome lines such 'Cliff Banger' for Cliff Bole giving them all praise for the work they've done with the Star Trek franchise. Now I get excited when I see Winrich Kolbe listed as a director shown on the bottom of the screen when its something I would never pay attention to before
I still say that “Where No One Has Gone Before”, “The Big Goodbye”, “11001001”, “Coming of Age”, “Heart of Glory”, and “Conspiracy” are far better than anything put out in DS9 Season One…with the exception of “Duet”. And they were certainly more memorable.
This does depend on what a person's preferences are in terms of story telling style and general feel. I have real issues with every single TNG S1 episode. I preferred DS9 S1 without thinking that show had done enough. TNG season 1 felt 10 years out of date and what Phase 2 would have been like. I do understand that TNG S1 is more fun (both in the good and bad sense) than DS9 S1. I would refuse to re-watch TNG S1, but be very reluctant to re-watch DS9 S1. One big advantage of S1 TNG was that major threats were introduced. Where are the stakes in DS9 S1?
Promotion for the start of DS9 was significant. Emissary is the most watched episode of Trek. Period.
Not next to “The Best of Both Worlds”!! Come on!! 🤦♂️
Don't how anyone can skip the first 2 seasons of TNG. There is so many building blocks for later seasons. Sure you could maybe skip half of them but at least 10 of the season 1 episodes I would say are required viewing. And I find season 2 has some real great ones
Because they're trash lol
Fun Fact about the episode Duet, apparently they were over budget going into the End of the Season, so they needed to Write An Episode that was All dialogue with as minimal Shots as possible.
me again ;) finally had the time to watch your reaction (btw it stopped abruptely at 49:09) and I just wanted to thank you for your fair treatment of this first season. Also it was also more positive than I expected. looking forward to the next hundreds episodes with you guys ;)
have you guys seen the hbo remake of 12 angry men? it's worth a watch. the entire cast is crazy; jack lemmon, george c scott, edward james olmos, james gandolfini, courtey b vance, hume cronyn, tony danza, ozzie davis, william peterson..
You mention about Quark and being being the bar, but you just gonna have to settle for Morn always being at the bar :P
running arguably the greatest season of star trek ever in season 6 tng side by side with the shakedown season of Ds9 probably did this season no favors lol.
There is an interesting podcast where the actors noted that there was a lot of producers interferance at the start and that it changed as soon as voyager started because the whole attention moved to that show and the writers could finaly do whatever they wanted
Yes, I understood that DS9 Season 1 was a bit limited in that they were forced to stay simple (therefore more stuck on the station) so that nothing interfered with big TNG plots.
I think (maybe other patrons can correct me) that they leaned a lot on Quark for the marketing of DS9, so that’s why he’s in so many episodes. I say this because I didn’t really know DS9 existed but I recognized Quark the first time I watched it on Spike or Fx. In the same way, I didn’t really know about TOS but knew the name Spock.
yeah, I rember that he was prominent featured on tv magazines and some talk shows. There is even a interview where he is in full costume and after the comercial break without the prostetics.
The big difference between DS9 season 1 and TNG season 1 is DS9 basically has the characters nailed from the get-go. TNG season 1 is frustrating partly because there are so many moments where Picard and Riker and Worf simply aren't really the characters they'd later become, which becomes really glaring on rewatch. DS9's first season plays a lot better on rewatch than TNG's - despite the shaky storytelling - because even though the main cast deepen and evolve in important ways, from the very start they're recognizable as the same people they will be in season 7.
For me, DS9 season 1 is the writers figuring out what the show Isn’t. Season 2 is them figuring out what the show is.
There were issues during season 1 with Paramount pulling in the opposite direction to where the core writing team wanted to base the show. Ira Steven Behr was the focal point for a Bajor-centric first season. He became the effective show runner during the 2nd half of season 2, although Piller still had that formal credit. Behr's different perspective on the Federation emerges during the later episodes of season 2.
A good review as always guys, my personal hopes for a season 2 episode plot would be some kind of bank job where they have to get the Latnium onto the roundabout. Bring on season 2 guys!
Stolen by the Shankar resistance!
First two seasons are tough…a few more good ones in the second, but also dull ones, then it builds. I gave up on DS9 earlier in season two, and picked it up again later. Then I fell in love with it. When I recommend DS9 to newbies I usually give a list of ones to watch in the first two seasons…and skip the rest. You’re not done with the nothingburger plots. But you will start to get some solid ones.
I can't wait for the moment when everyone realizes DS9 s2 is better than TNG s7
This is wild! I just went through the TNG list and I forgot how many of those I’ve blocked from my memory 😂. I’m certainly not going to call you a liar.
Great discussion and a very fair assessment of season 1 on a first watch. Unfortunately/Fortunately, DS9 season 1 & 2 are much more enjoyable on a rewatch knowing where the series goes. But even then they're the least enjoyable of the series imo.
100% Agree that you have more appreciation for the building blocks of the first two seasons once you know where it is all going.
I agree that Avery Brooks’ acting can be odd. But if you think of his performance like listening to a jazz musician, it makes more sense. Season 1 was definitely a little shaky but I think he’s pretty much pitch perfect from here on.
You've said that before. Why is acting like jazz a good thing 😂
By my count, 17/26 of DS9's S2 episodes are at least B - Banger level or higher. S2 is a marked improvement over S1.
Alex, some days I love you and some days I hate you. Today I love you for putting Captive Pursuit at #1. The patrons can suck it for putting it lower than the premier and the finale.
For me solid Number 2 after Duet. The only ones that really stick.
Hey guys, René Auberjonois was in Star Trek 6! His parts were cut for the theatrical release which you watched, but you'd see him in the extended cut! (You wouldn't like it... lol)
I think you still see him briefly. Dead.
This may be a defector opinion or whatever but honestly for me, it’s TNG > VOY > TOS > DS9 & ENT. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy them all but I think DS9 is overhyped. When you look at TOS & TNG, whatever the episode is, there’s interesting sets, worlds and colours. One thing that depresses me about DS9 is how it’s set on a depressing brown / grey station that’s always embroiled in politics. Bajor is described as a beautiful planet but we’ve only been there a few times, for a few throwaway scenes. It gets a lot better as it goes on but I overall remember more dull episodes that good ones.
I agree with you that DS9 is over-hyped. Glad your top tier is TNG as it is for me. But I still have enough love for this series to make it my #3. You’re absolutely right about the depressing feeling at times of the station. It’s that darker aesthetic tone to match the tone of the series. Because there were times I would skip an episode or two, I’m looking forward to revisiting this world with the guys and catching up on what I missed!
Trick question, there are not five good episodes in S1 of DS9.
GUL TARGET: ~spotlights turn on~. "How many good episodes do you see there?" T-AUDIENCE: "I see four good episodes." GUL TARGET: "No, there are five. Are you quite sure?" T-AUDIENCE: "There are four good episodes." GUL TARGET: ~pushes button~.
TOS titles: For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky! TNG titles: Sins of the Father. DS9 titles: Progress
That doesn’t hold though. DS9s get poetic. (Voyager’s are mostly super simple, though.)
It's total understandable that 'In The Hands Of The Prophets' ranked second place for the Patrons but did not reach the Top 5 of Josh and Alex. To avoid spoilers I just say you have to have watched the whole show to understand it.
Same with Emissary
With all the hype and promises of DS9 greatness, I wonder if Josh & Alex feel a bit like gamers did back in 2016 after the initial release of the video game "No Man's Sky": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KxRp8jeliQ But, like DS9, No Man's Sky got huge improvements over the years and eventually became one of the most beloved space games.
I think they were adequately warned that DS9 is a slow roll. S2 is only marginally better than S1.
A fair recap that I enjoyed. I aways say I don’t like to hype anything up too much, but I definitely think you’ll like S2 a fair bit more. The haters can definitely chill out. I’ve read through the episode list a bunch of times now and if S1 was 25/75, season 2 is much closer to 75/25 being decent to great based on my episode counts. Still a big variety of ups and downs, but WAY more ups than downs.
I would say S1 is 5/95 (with Duet being the only good episode) S2 is 25/75 (Whispers, The Wire, Tribunal maybe a couple others) S3 is 50/50 S4 is 75/25 S5 and S6 are 90/10 S7 is 80/20
Loved the discussion Josh & Alex! Here's my very refined & elegant summary of DS9 seasons: S1 - Oatmeal with a few dates in it S2 - Maple Oatmeal with even more dates in it S3 - Chuck Roast with mashed potatoes S4+ - Ribeye's medium rare and a side of roasted taters
THIS
I wonder if there are any other fans out there who had this experience with DS9, but Season 1 was actually better on a rewatch for me. But specifically because I have been a fan for many years and love these characters so much. Seeing where they started and how things developed from there was actually pretty enjoyable. Meanwhile I have rewatched S1 of TNG many times and still hate it. It's almost unwatchable for me. And I think the reason is I almost don't consider the S1 version of the TNG cast to be their true canon versions. Whereas the DS9 cast is the cast I know 7 years later. I'm not saying that TNG season 1 isn't canon, but I really feel like they are different characters than the ones we grew to love in S2 and afterwards.
Completely, I also rewatched with Jen Murray a few months ago and realized I liked a lot more than I remembered
DS9 to me is a dramatic improvement but that's not a tall order. S1 has a few good episodes but watching all of it requires effort, and while watching the expanse or BSG you can watch multiple episodes in a row, even watching two at a time here was a chore. S2 opens strong imo with a few of their best episodes, but it too gets bogged down in mediocrity eventually.
There are times I wonder if they considered naming this show Star Trek Quarks Bar. Armin Must have been close personal friends with the writing staff.
Self sealing stembolts are big with many fans
Remember Sisko’s job was to prepare Bajor to be in the Federation it is required to interact with Bajor, though I agree the way they carried it out early on could have been better
For all you guys and gals out there saying this is your favorite Trek, this series sure could have used your support at the time. DS9 came dangerously close to being canceled in its third season from lack of viewership. Nothing against the series itself, but there was what one could call “an over-saturation” of Star Trek on the television airwaves during the 90’s.
I saw this documentary recently on YouTube made years ago, and the studio exec said when the show started dabbling with continued stories ratings took a hit, the studio warned them, but the show didn't care because that's the show they wanted to do.
I also adore Keiko wish she had been given more she would want to take the time for, most of what she was given was hardly worth time in make up, but I adore her and her character
Yeah, Season 1 is tough for exactly what you both talked about: A lot of bland stuff. Fortunately, while it isn't great, S2 is certainly a step in the right direction IMO and I suspect that you will have a top 10 list for it. I'm looking forward to seeing your reactions to it ASAP!
When two or three characters talk to each other it is a character moment 🖖🏼
Hahaha
Great recap and a very fair assessment of Season 1. There's a reason it took me three attempts to complete all of DS9 and this is mostly the reason why. Season 1 is okay, but just didn't interest me that much. Season 2 was better, but still not enough for me to get excited enough to binge watch it. But once the show really found its own voice I couldn't stop watching. Really hope to see the show click for you like that!
I remember the promotion of DS9 before it started and early on. There was a big effort to carry over viewers. How it would be set in one place with others coming and going, and more cosmopolitan with other species, was very much known beforehand and part of the pitch. It was an attempt to broaden the story universe in many ways, perhaps stretching its wings a little without Gene's hand.
Season 1’s biggest crime is it’s just bland; there’s some bright spots and the season is watchable but compared to what TNG were doing at the same time does struggle. When the season relies on its premise it’s great when it’s TNG lite it struggles. S2 tho is a marked step up and I have always enjoyed that season more. But don’t go in expecting a season of the same quality of TNG s6.
I think you guys will be pleasantly surprised at season 2. It's got a few episodes that aren't great but scanning over episode titles just now I was actually surprised at how many good episodes there were that I had forgotten were from season 2.
The issue I always had with S2 is that it still doesn't answer the essential question. What is this show going to be? Like TNG's 2nd season, the answer arrived sooner afterwards than expected.
DS9 is my favorite show of all time, and I mostly hate season 1. (painful on rewatch.) Still, its Star Trek, and therefore has a few gems.
As you said. When I rewatch, there's only a handful I watch from Season One. More from Season 2, and I'm there for most episodes from Season 3 onward. There is still a clunker here or there, but on balance, I think Seasons 3-7 of DS9 are stronger than Seasons 3-7 of TNG.
Im curious if Josh and Alex didn’t have a channel, would they have continued to watch DS9 after season 1. It definitely is a little boring, but is it so boring that you would have tuned out after the finale ?
I feel like if I didn’t have a channel but in real life made the decision to watch all of Star Trek, I would still be just as stubborn in committing to watching all of it.
I also defend TNG season 2. Still not as good as seasons 3-7, but I think we start to see what the show and the characters are truly becoming. Very much a season of extreme highs and lows.
I usually think of TNG Season 1 as being very even in quality -- "it's just okay." Season 2 has spectacularly good episodes, but also episodes I think are worse than anything Season 1 had.
The forsaken is IMO very comfortably Lwaxana's best episode thus far. My Top 5 season 1 episodes would probably have to be 1. Duet 2. Progress 3. The forsaken 4. In the Hands of the Prophets 5. Battle Lines. Honourable mentions: Q-less, Emissary
Technobabel is definitely a nuanced language that takes time for people to master! It's not just pronunciation, but delivery.
This soup definitely gets much spicier over time... 👍🏼 still finding its footing here. But once it does start running, it pretty much doesn't stop
This is the FOURTH series season 1 you're reviewing.
DS9 was syndicated and often appeared on local Fox stations, like TNG. In markets that were not big enough to have a Fox station, they would be on some other local channel.
Also realize, we watched these shows originally we didn't have the lens of everything that's come since in Trek and out of it. For the time it came out, DS9 was top notch sci fi.
Josh's reaction to the Klingon dying immediately in 'Dramatis Personae' is my clearest memory of your S1 watching. It reminded me of The Simpsons episode where Bart freeze frames a video of Ralph after being rejected by Lisa. "You can see the moment his heart broke in two." I think you were both a bit checked out watching 'In The Hands Of The Prophets', but otherwise I think your reactions were fair. It was a mediocre season.....that didn't even suggest how far the show would evolve.
I really like In the Hands of the Prophets, but I do agree that the climax of the episode was somewhat botched in the execution.
I think you guys were more forgiving for TNG season 1. I think if you went and rewatched them, and compared the TNG1 with DS91 I think the average quality would be higher for DS9; and DS9 season 1 definitely has higher high points than TNG 1 ever had. Overall I think the biggest difference between TNG season 1 and DS9 season 1 is that TNG had all the worst episodes right at the beginning; whereas DS9 shoved them into the middle of the season.
This is probably true, except they've seen how good TNG could get, so DS9 gets graded on a curve (rightly so, it is being made by the same people). No excuse for such basic scripts.
I've at least been consistent on the "DS9 doesn't really find its footing until Season 3." There will be more "good" episodes in Season 2 than there were in Season 1. But the show is still trying to be "The Next Generation on a Space Station" in the first half of Season 2 for sure. Just be patient. There's good reason this is my favorite Trek. It's the favorite of many others, too, not just me.
THIS