UNCUT - The Forsaken (DS9 S1E17) | Star Trek Journey 271

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version Lwaxana and Odo did it???? Ummm we have to say, that is a lot of …umm…..umm… wetness in her dress and right there. Yes!! We are counting it. We do not know what sex is for shape shifting “types” like Odo. The sex score board Chief 1 Keiko 1 Quark 1 Odo 1 new +1 GUEST: Lwaxana 4 +1 new DETAILS: 1st confirmed the sex scoreboard score for the Lwasexana from the TNG ep. This might be a controversial call but unless someone comes up with a good reason why not (based ONLY on what we know to this point), we count it.

Definitely an episode where the series shows its age. Although it could still happen today, sadly. Starts with a woman *strongly* sexually harassing a man, if not borderline *sexually assaulting*. A man who is *very clearly* extremely unhappy and uncomfortable with it. When he goes to his superior for help, AS HE SHOULD, the superior fucking laughs it off and encourages him to see it as okay, because “Who doesn’t like a bit of sex, regardless of where it comes from?” So without support or escape, he has to deal with his harasser/assaulter himself. And then it’s all nice and okay in the end because he has a “sweet moment” with the woman who harassed or assaulted him, as if that’s a thing that *actually happens*. (And don’t get me wrong, that WOULD have been a great moment. It was wonderfully written, directed, and acted. If not for the laughed off sexual harassment/assault thing that *began their “relationship”*)And it’s not only all played for laughs in the episode, but disgustingly, still manages to get them from a lot of people who watch it. *These* are the things that actually deserve hatred or getting mad about. Not poor writing whose worse offense is an unimpressive hour of entertainment, or violating “lore” as if these shows are historical documents rather than a work of art. What really deserves that kind of hatred is episodes that have a real negative impact in the *real world*, and reinforcing the belief that’s *still held today* that men can’t be victims of sexual assault certainly puts this episode on that list. And you know, to be clear, I’m not one of her “haters”. I never have been. I like her quite a bit, and always have. I think the fact that she was made to do this in this episode is quite a disservice to her.

LOL holding my tongue about the TOS cast members showing up line LOL

S for the Odo Plot line. D for the Puppy Line. So i guess this a B Tier Episode ^^

Can't believe you guys MISSED the (only) great moment where Sisko puts on a fake happy face for the ambassadors

You can’t imagine bashir punching someone to save a colleague? You just saw him do that a few episodes ago

Many people get confused between cliches and tropes . Especially because of the website tv tropes, which gets criticism because people think that the site is claiming every trope listed is a cliche. Basically, a trope is a story telling device. As humans have been telling stories since language evolved, and there are only so many story telling devices, any recognizable device is a trope. Even stories that have original devices require some sort of tropes to be recognizable to an audience. A story absent of tropes would be incomprehensible because to be understood, something familiar must be conveyed that the audience can recognize and understand. A cliche is basically a trope that is overused to the point where the audience becomes aware of the device and what it is trying to do that breaks story immersion. It is a trope where the elements of the trope are either felt to be trying to do the work instead of the organic story elements, or the setup is so familiar and repetitive that it feels like hackneyed writing and breaks story immersion. The format has been so "done" and is so predictable that it feels like a device that has lost all novelty or believability and becomes lazy formulaic writing. Thus every cliche is a trope, but not every trope is a cliche. And there isn't objective criteria here, As an example, I'll use something from my domain of expertise, punk songs. I used to run a music venue and would see a lot of bands. Now, there are topics that are addressed in punk songs that are going to be recurring themes of focus. Just because a topic has been dealt with doesn't mean a song is cliche. It can have original things to say, or be formatted in an interesting way. But I would occasionally encounter bands where it felt like the songs on an album were "going down a checklist." The feeling one gets from such, whether or not it is a reflection of the writer's mindstate, is that instead of authentic sentiment, the writer is just going down a checkboard of things that a punk band should sing about. Thus you have your song about the media, your song about mainstream religion, your anti-war song, anti-consumerism song, etc. And it's not that such topics make for a cliched song. But when you see such song topics, and the lyrics feel generic and uninspired, you get the feeling of cliched writing... writing not inspired by authentic feeling or sentiment, but by a sense this is what a punk band "should" have songs about it and the writer does a sort of "fill in the blanks." Or in other words, the topic is the trope, the cliche is the tired and formulaic execution.

as fars a Mr Hohm, maybe his alcoholism got him fired

The "Lwaxana hater" crowd basically comes from the perspective that her character reduces to "Isn't a middle aged woman who still thinks she's in her prime with a huge sex drive whose clueless and pursues men who aren't interested in here inherently funny?"

As has been mentioned, Season 1 used a lot of the TNG type episodes as with a new show the hand of the executives was still heavy and as a result they were conservative in what they were allowed to do, trying to establish an audience from TNG with similar types of stories. Once the attention of the executives became more focused on Voyager as the new "flagship" of Star Trek with it being the leading show for the new UPN network, DS9 was treated as the "black sheep" and the showrunners were given more freedom to allow DS9 to be its own thing. When it gets away from the mold of what Trek "had to be" is way it really became its own thing and shined.

The thing about people saying TNG gets better in season is that it isn't wrong, it's just that it happens more gradually at the start of season 3 then people remember. DS9 takes a huge leap in season 2 and then is great from season 3 on.

So many seeds in most first season episodes and character building

Runabout Transporter not working too? Also thought the same thing about the Vulcan being stronger than weedy little Bashir

You talk about the tension between the genuinely good character stuff vs. the sci-fi technobabble that just takes up time. Different people will disagree on the specific timing, but basically that's what eventually brought the Star Trek franchise down; they ran out of good story ides and it became just a franchise with a bunch of lore for people to nerd out about. The good news is that the big debate in the fandom is whether the peak was TNG or DS9. Wherever you fall in that debate, they're both fantastic shows. There's still a lot of great stuff in Voyager and Enterprise as well. They're worthwhile shows and I don't want to detract from that. But there's a reason you don't hear about them when people argue about what's the best Star Trek series.

It’s kind of important to remember that the prototypes of giga pets are starting to appear in the science world at this time when DS9 is being filmed so looking at those prototypes, Star Trek beat the toy corporations to the punch with their own giga pets before they were available commercially to the public Giga pets were kind of a fat of the late 90s that died off pretty much as fast as the pet you owned. I wonder how long chief O’Brien managed to keep the pup alive’’-

This is why when this first was aired I couldn’t get into it and quit watching it through the first season. I’ve tried watching it since and it still has to me boring episodes.

Cliche's are things that are so overused it can be corny in its un originality. There was a great movie in 1950 and this woman told this guy "I can't believe my ears!" and he responded "What a dull cliche."

I don't think there's much difference between a cliche and a trope. Just that trope is a word people started using in more recent years online. Though I guess a site like TV tropes has been around for like 20 years by now. I feel like that really popularized the term, though.

The beauty of DS9 is its rewatch ability, that can make the first watch less memorable

I love it! I love how down on DS9 they are so far! They have no idea what's coming!

rn this show is completely unrecognizable from what it becomes

"Lwaxanna elevates another ok episode" is exactly where I land too. Both Lwaxanna/MBR and Deanna/MS for that matter. There's alot to say about the storylines those two have been given and some writing choices that have been made, but I will never not stand on a table for both actresses and characters every chance I get. In fact I think it makes me love them both even more.

This "humanizes" Lwaxana- who I generally find written as 2-dimensional annoying sex-crazed "cougar"- yes that can be funny- but nor if almost EVERY scene is not serious....I really liked this episode

I remember when this episode first aired I groaned when I saw Lwaxana but it’s actually a decent episode and one of her better episodes.

As i said before I love almost all Lwaxana episodes, this is one of my favourites. A for me. I think the only one of her episodes i'm not a big fan of is actually Half A Life.

I wish I could go back in time and get Doctor Stubbs added to the DS9 season 3 premiere just to see how Alex and Josh would react.

I think they do a good job of balancing the scifi stuff with the character stuff, instead of letting one outshadow the other

Great takes, guys. As usual.

And yet again, Star Trek thinks ambassadors and politicians are a bunch of assholes.

Once again, Lwaxana works better for me when she has more dramatic stuff to do. When it's straight up comedy, I can skip it.

I’m watching some of these episodes for the first time, this one included. I thought this episode was great, Rene and Majel are fantastic actors and work really well together, the elevator scenes are my favourite character moments so far the season. Though what is her dress made of, rubber?! I get your points about the A, B (&C) plots, but it is a sci-if show and they are catering to multiple types of viewers. Some will hate the Odo & Lwaxanna plot but will love the AI storyline. I think they used both well in this episode. I think Les deserves more credit too, there were some great downwards shots of Ops which show how big the set is, plus I loved the more gritty look when they were trying to cut the door open and rescue Bashir & the diplomats. Overall I’d say high B / A

The actor who plays Mr. Homn might have been busy filming The Addams Family (he plays Lurch).

Rewatching this with you two made me realize how much time the computer subplot actually took. I cant even really call it a subplot because so much screen time was wasted on it, which sucks because it’s boring af.

yeah i only remembered this episode having 1 plot the much superior Lwaxana Troi stuck in the elevator with Odo story

Since you've mentioned a bunch of times already. The name "Morn" was specifically chosen because it is an anagram of "Norm" :) Overall the episode suffers from having 3 plots. Having the Odo-Lwaxana plot along with either Bashir and The ambassadors OR the "pup" program would have worked better with an A-B setup rather than the muddled A-B-C. It's still solid and the Odo, Lwaxana stuff elevate it. B- for me.

IMO DS9's peak / 'final form' is S4-S7, but there are several good to great episodes between now and then, and S2 > S1 while S3 > S2. Patience will be rewarded.

DS9 season 2 is like TNG season 2. Peaks and valleys. There's still a lot of meh early season slog, but also some new ideas, some great episodes, and previews of what's to come once the show really takes off. The back half is especially good once they bring on Robert Hewitt Wolfe and Ira Stephen Behr. They start giving the show the direction it needs. It doesn't truly find it's voice though until season 3, or some would even say season 4. It's all worth it though.

I watched all these shows when they first aired weekly in the 90s. And while now looking back on them for a second look, I admit that some of these first season episodes drag a bit in places as the writers developed it, they have occasional moments of greatness. I see that looking at it now... all of this was character and world building. Knowing the full outcome of the series I guess I was blinded to the first season's shortcomings - by how big its scope becomes and how huge the stakes get. All of which will become clear when you watch it unfold. One day hopefully you'll both look back at the entire 7 seasons and see it as THE great era of Star Trek. Unsurpassed in its depth and risk-taking. The studio had interfered a lot in the early seasons. But Ira Steven Behr and the writers had a bigger vision. Thank god the suits backed off and let them develop it fully. I look forward to sharing this rewatch with you as it all unfolds. It will be worth the wait lads!

Yeah, I have a soft spot for this episode too. Bashir's story is semi entertaining, and the computer "pup" in a unique concept, but Troi is the main draw. I get why people find Lwaxana a bit much(especially in Manhunt), but her last 2 appearances on TNG showed us a different side of her and this episode expanded on that. I and several others said in the patron takes that this episode paired one of Treks most extroverted characters with one of it's most introverted ones, and while that's definitely true, thinking about it more, I think they're not as far apart as it seems. Yes Lwaxana is very forward and exuberant, but Half a Life showed us that she didn't simply pursue men as a game or for fun. Past the pretense, she can be very genuine and warm with people she cares for. Cost of Living, as awful as it was, also showed us a lot of her antics originate from a fear of growing old, especially alone. Her boisterous personality is a defense mechanism covering a fear that being alone is all she has left. On the other hand, Odo being such a serious and solitary man makes a lot more sense given his first years of life saw him treated first as a lab experiment and then as jester. At a certain point he probably figured if he pushed everyone away his life would be more tolerable. Bit by bit that experience in the turbolift made them both realize they weren't actually as different as they seemed, and they could drop their respective acts. Not an amazing episode, but I can't hate on it. B-

Pretty much over the worst now.

When this first aired on British TV, I immediately decided my favourite character was Odo. YEARS later, I found out I had the same birthday as Rene Auberjonois... RIP

Upgraded my membership so I don't have to wait the extra day! Keep going with DS9, you will love it!

Be patient boys, and take it easy on my beloved DS9. It will get there :)

Just a thought by now Odo was my fave character in the show and, along with Colm Meaney, comfortably the best actor.

So happy Lwaxana's heavy emotional explorations, always covered with her extreme personality, resonates with you guys as it does for me. Professional actress, and Rene Auberjonois as the same elite ability knock it out. In defense of the rest, these are mid episodes and scenes, but we are learning who these people are. Chief takes technical challenges personally and holds himself to excellence. Sisko doesn't fck with SA and will clock a bitch, but he also has a sense of humor. Part of the weight of Dax is Curzon's history, and we are reminded twice that her life experience(s) have depth DS9 will slowly tease out. Not great plots, but invaluable growth, just like watching Kira's struggles in Progress.

I'm with you. I love Lwaxana and never understood the hate she got. Character moments like these are where DS9 is at its best for me. Thanks for the reaction!

Ah I like this one - again story not upto much but in a recurring theme character wise it’s good - its a better vehicle for Lwxanna than many of her TNG episodes and the scenes in the turbo lift are great.

I love Lwaxanna she’s usually hilarious, and can be heartfelt too. Here, with Timicin, and with Alexander when she voices her fear about growing old alone. I have heard some hate for her from long time trekkers. And I’m like really Genes poor widow?

Fun fact: Morn's makeup took 2 hours to apply.

Lwaxana is so much better on DS9.

There's some great Odo lore in this one and Majel kills it. I really liked how Lwaxana's dress when she's in the turbo lift scenes is a take on Deanna Trois greenish/teal dress from TNG with the askew neckline. Basically the same dress in a different color and the point of the neckline is on the other side.

Regarding the re-used shot of the fire, I've read that at this point in the season they were WAY overbudget. Due to all the alien background characters, they were learning that "bottle" episodes set entirely on the station didn't save them nearly as much as they expected based on TNG. So they'd blown through most of the season 1 budget much earlier than expected, and in this last group of episodes they were in full cost-savings mode.

I love that Josh is rocking a cool Dollywood shirt cause when I was a kid Lwaxana actually reminded me of Dolly Parton with the big... hair... Anyway, IMO, S2 of DS9 is better than S2 of TNG and it's not even close.

That elevator scene is so good.

IMHO, season 2 is a definite improvement.

OIne of the greatests feat of DS9 is right here. You actually kind of like Lwaxana.

"I've always wanted to see an upper pylon" Oh, I think she's seen some 'upper pylons' in her time...

Yes! Something to watch tonight!