PATRON TAKES - DS9 S1E20
TAKES WILL BE READ 7/1
Comments (110)
Some people love to hate Winn, but she makes skin crawl every time she's on screen. I hate her. And I hate the feeling of hating her.
Glad Keiko got so much
You asked for an amazing ending to the season and you got it. This sets you up for an amazing season 2! Enjoy!
I like the approach to religion in this episode. It feels real. I even like the way they portray Kira. I think Nana adds this smugness to her acting in the scene with Keiko, knowing that Kira is really just parroting Winn’s position.
Nobody came up with the Idea that Winn or some other Vedic could get someone to teach about the Bajoran cultural history and political religion.
DS9 isn't afraid to discuss difficult topics from multiple perspectives and I love that. Excited to see your reaction to the explosion. This show makes great use of practicals.
Welcome to the DS9 boys
After lots of middling episodes it feels like DS9 really got into higher gear towards the end of this season. This is a solid episode, though Sisko yelling “nooooo!” in slow motion did make me laugh. I’d like to think that even though Neela was a plant, she did really fall for O’Brien’s natural magnetism.
This re-centers the series on Bajor in a critical way, and introduces an interesting struggle between religious fundamentalism and the practical realities of leading a postwar society toward an inclusive future. A solid season ender which shows strong shades of the elements that carry DS9 into the stratosphere as it goes on. Louise Fletcher is awesome here!
After a so so season, This Is Where DS9 Begins.I like everything in this episode.
On your toes, O'Brien.
And here...we...go! This episode brings to life what this series is all about. A multicultural station with the Federation and the Bajorans, and what happens when those two cultures collide. When people say Star Trek often uses politics of the day, this is a strong example of that, because it's still relevant in real life today. Which brings us to Winn, who is one of those villains you just love to hate.
One of the best episodes of the season in my opinion. Has elements of everything I like about DS9 and shows the development of the main characters and of Bajor itself over the season well.
Winn and Keiko....both hard to like.
I love how Kira starts out agreeing with Winn. And it's not that she moves completely. Her faith is still enormously important to her. But she does realize how the same faith that kept Bajor alive during the Cardassian occupation can also be used for political gain, even at murderous cost, by someone like Winn. And for Bajor to survive, it must reevaluate faith's place in its culture going forward.
this motherfucker and her sydney opera house hat
lol
Religious extremism clashing with science based education: a totally foreign concept to the American viewers of today.
I don’t enjoy the experience of watching this episode all that much, but I do love what it does for Sisko and Kira’s relationship, I love Sisko’s conversation with Jake about respecting the Bajoran’s views, and I love that Keiko gets a bit of a spotlight.
This episode sets up so much for the rest of the show. I'll avoid spoilers and just say that Louise Fletcher's portrayal of the self-serving and egotistical Winn Adami is top-notch, and I love to hate her :-)
This is one of those episodes where DS9 stands out from other Treks that rarely or lightly touch on any sort of religious questions. No other race has been show to be as spiritual as the Bajorans and it adds an extra layer when they have some sort of empirical evidence to back it up with the existence of the wormhole aliens/prophets. I respected the episode a lot for ending with no good answer on how to handle it, just that they all have to work together and respect each others beliefs as best they can.
Some nice consequences from “Battle Lines.” Without Opaka, the Bajoran faith is fracturing and Sisko now has to deal with Bajoran clerics who don’t believe in him.
And at first, he has no one on his side.
From what I’ve read, the show did practical explosions and fires. Harrowing for the actors but it looks great.
I have always enjoyed this one. As others have mentioned, the conversation between Sisko and Jake is a great example of ideological IDIC, but also Sisko's speech to Winn after the bombing saying that the people that have worked on the station know better. Also one thing I've noticed on this rematch of DS9 is that they aren't afraid of blowing up their regular sets...
I like the “church vs state” idea here…BUT Keiko comes off kinda intolerant. She’s not exactly wrong, but she’s unwilling to even *consider* adding a “religious education” class to her curriculum? As a guest on the world steeped in religion? It’s not like the Bajorans were asking her to convert the Federation to their religion. The initial suggestion wasn’t completely out of line for Bajoran children. (What’s funny is that Winn doesn’t really care about the school at all, it’s all just political games!)
Then you'd have to teach the religions of all the students as well as discuss agnosticism and atheism, to be fair to everyone. Bit hard to fit in a general curriculum when you're having to cover all that.
Who did it better? Sisko or Darth Vader?
I don't know about the big "NOOOO!" in this case. All I know is that if Sisko alters the deal, you should pray that he does not alter it any further.
I would mention the scene between Sisko and Jake... but everyone else will probably mention it... Solid episode.
It’s amazing how much of her Academy Award-winning role of Nurse Ratched from “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” that Louise Fletcher brings to Vedek Winn…and it works!
Gotta love Sisko’s lesson to Jake: It may not be what you believe, but that doesn’t make it wrong. Perfect mindset to encourage for someone having to juggle many different cultures and factions.
Parenting done right :-)
Sisko’s discussion with Jake is a nice counter to Picard’s view on the Mintakan’s beliefs. DS9 exhibits its ability to be nuanced but firm on morals and ethics.
Ethics? Watch out for Vulcans, they'll steal your homework.
One of you mention after an episode that you wanted the show to take some risks. I wonder how do you feel after this episode and “Duet?”
Question: If you were a character in Trek, do you think you would have enough evidence to believe or not believe in a Supreme, Creator of All Life Deity?
Id go simulation theory for sure. Which implies a creator as well
Fuck Vedek Winn.
I’d rather not thanks 🤔
Fascist Alert!🚨 When you get down to it, Vedek Winn’s motive wasn’t about the school. It was the means to escalate tension and violence and clear the path to attain power and control.
Yeah, it was all cloak and dagger politics. She didn't care what the kids learned.
Is Keiko too firm in her stance too? Do you think a compromise could’ve been made to include Religious Studies?
In reference to the comment about Sisko's big "NOOOO!" and asking who did it better, him or Vader, all I have to say is that Sisko would find her lack of faith disturbing.
I love this episode. The writers didn't have to submit an original idea but instead could pick up past events (federation school, unstable government, no Kai) and progress with the consequences.
Winn is a great villain with a great actress. I enjoy DS9 not ending on some dumb cliffhanger like TNG had started relying since Best of Both Worlds.
I think this is an above-decent single-episode finale of DS9 S1. It's far from perfect, though. Despite how deep and complicated the commentary on society and religion attempts to get, it's hard not to snicker when Sisko does his crazy "NOOOOOOO" football touchdown leap towards the end before giving a Kirk-esque speech, lulz. Give a round of applause for Louise Fletcher, someone who made bank on portraying supremely unlikable individuals~
Say what you will about Vedek Winn, but her hat+toga fashion sense is FIRE.
Agreed. Terrible person. Glorious hat.
After "Duets" this is another episode on the upswing of what DS9 will be capable of. Unfortunately by this point in the season of the first run I had more or less stopped watching. I'm glad I gave it another chance though...it gets amazing.
The thing I really appreciate about this episode is that Wynn is kinda half right about Keiko; she is using undisputed facts to preach for a disputable interpretation. A modern retelling would spend the whole episode dunking on Wynn, but the writers go out of their way to have Sisko defend Wynn's perspective to Jake. I love that.
Okay, I don't want to even come close to spoiling anything, but there are those who will say you meet Star Trek's greatest villain in this episode and I am one of them. S-tier stuff here.
Best villain. Second most interesting villain.
I think this one is good. DS9 in general does a better job at handling religion than TNG and this is a good example of that.
You know, a lot of people hate it but I really respected Picard's firm position against people backsliding into a belief in the supernatural in 'who watches the watchers.' Future Earth in Star Trek really does seem to be extremely atheistic... And I think Picards's stance against the supernatural lines up perfectly with that world. I would say though, that Sisko's position is arguably the more progressive, while I would consider Sisko to be the less progressive man overall.
Her name maybe Winn but she’s a total loser lol…love Louise Fletcher in the role though…and the Sydney Opera House hat
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! This was topical at the time, and I suppose it still is. But unlike many, DS9 doesn’t paint with a broad brush. Both religion and state have good guys and bad guys, just like real life. Vedek Winn makes a wonderful villain. She is rather like Professor Umbridge in Harry Potter, but Winn was first. The Oscar Winning actress Louise Fletcher took the role, and I loved her as Winn.
Personally I prefer the Picard version of the future where religion has been discarded, but this is more realistic. A.
Even in the Picard version, this sort of thing could happen, because we're dealing with a non-Federation culture in the Bajorans who explicitly don't hold Federation values. The difference is that Picard could sail off into the sunset saying "Well, we tried" if the episode was a downer, or "they learned a valuable lesson today, let's see how they advance in the coming decades" if it was happier. The crew of DS9 is stuck there and has to deal with it.
Some real world issues in this one, and it's a good exploration of how the religious aspects of the Bajorans (and anyone else!) can turn nasty given the right twisted mind.
when politics and religion combine you get Vedek Winn a bad combination but a interesting villain
I absolutely loathe Winn, especially the way she barges into the school and tries to impose her beliefs. As a teacher, this really infuriates me. I teach kids about lots of different religions, but never teach any of them as 'fact'. I expose the kids in my class to different ideas and withold nothing. It's up to them to form their own opinions.
I want to try Fajo's Varon-T disruptor on Winn.
What can I say accept that Louise Fletcher was great at playing the ultimate Karen.
DS9 Season 1 ends strong with “Duet” and this episode.
Vedek Winn - the character we all love to hate.
I really love the ending scene between Kira and Sisko. It underlines really nicely how both of them have grown, compared to the first few episodes, when it comes to trusting each other
I wish Winn had not been revealed to be in cahoots with the terrorist fundamentalists so early on. I think putting her in a moral gray area of “is she involved or not?” would be more interesting to watch.
I think it gives you a nice sense of danger to her, so that even when she's acting somewhat appropriately, you immediately wonder what her angle is.
This one isn't likely to stir up much controversy, is it?
I like that the show has a nuanced portrayal of a person of faith like Kira. She is able to be devoutly religious and rational.
It's actually a common complaint about DS9 in general... That there's so much more room for the supernatural. The mysticism. Etc. when dealing with the Bajorans though, I don't know how it could have been any other way.
SPACE KAREN HAS ARRIVED!!!
Winn has always been peak guest character for me. Like Dukat, impeccably well acted villainy, but realistic enough to be believable. It's been a while since Trek tackled religious zealotry. Did it make a convincing story for you?
first go Keiko! second Winn - OMG - finally love the show!
DS9 really started to cook the final two episodes. They both perfectly set up excitement for season two and the tone the series will take when it deals with politics and world issues
Say what you want about the two seasons these shows just had, but DS9 started and ended 100x stronger.
Nice 2-run homer tonight!
Keiko’s man has got it goin’ on! Chief O’Brien, My Man!😉🤝💪
I didn’t want to like this episode, aggressive differential views, some seemingly silly “ girl in love with O’Brien” subplot, all culminating into an episode that can only work in a space station. Straight BANGER!
At first glance, this episode appears to be about Religion vs Science, but it's really about something much more sinister; dangerous people who use religious authority, and arguments like Religion vs Science to prey upon vulnerable followers and manipulate them for personal gain. This is called spiritual abuse, and people who commit it are spiritual narcissists. Kai Opaka was a true spiritual leader. In contrast, Vedek Bariel and Vedek Winn are not spiritual at all; they're politicians. And Vedek Winn is also a spiritual narcissist. These people should not be in positions of power.
I think this episode is even more relevant now than it was then. We have a lot of folks who hold values blatantly hostile to the religion that they wear on their sleeve, and have a very "ends justify the means" approach.
Welp.....she's here. I dont like that she's here (very good character, excellent performance, I just hate her)
I think we can all say even Kirk would prefer a No-Winn scenario in this case
omg that might be one of my favourite star trek puns now!
More Bajoran politics for the season 1 finale, now you’ve got to the end was the Bajor focus too heavy in this season as a whole? Any predictions/would like to see on what happens next going into season 2?
I saw a meme about this episode I had to share "The producers of DS9 modeled the head piece worn by Vedek Winn after the Sydney Opera House in Australia. This was done as a subtle nod to Australia's fondness for the word c*nt"
I didn’t have “Starts an inter-species theology debate on segregation.” on my Keiko bingo card when she was introduced on TNG. Not my favourite finale, but I think it uses DS9’s unique setting to tell a story TOS and TNG couldn’t. It’s also nice they didn’t stretch it out in to two parts and used the 44 minutes well.
Some good ole sci fi. I give this one an A for Adam Nimoy, the director and Leonard’s son.
Vedek Winn is a character that makes you want to claw your eyes out from frusteration. Great performance from Louise Fletcher. Vedek Bareil was fine, okay performance from 2-by-4. I dunno why the Bajoran religious leaders can't teach the kids on their own about the Prophets - literally their JOB. And I dunno why Keiko can't pay lip service to the religion and Culture of the people whose region of space they're in. There's a lotta stupid hubris in this episode. Typical of manufactured science vs. religion debates. Many don't get they aren't mutually exclusive, opposite ends of a spectrum. One can have both. Still, top tier, and a showcase for character progression.
As was heavily implied in Who Watches the Watchers, the Federation doesn't believe in God or a supernatural being of any kind. Keiko is not only being a teacher for the first time (without formal training) she is outside of the Federation for the first time (as far as we know) having to cope with the religious beliefs of others. I like that, because this is DS9, she's failing a little while still doing her best.
Prediction: You'll have the same problem with this episode that you did with Star Trek VI, that the new character is obviously the culprit.
They might. But the funny thing is, Neela is in a previous episode.
One of the best episodes of the season, and Louise Fletcher was a great actress. Just a well constructed little story that has a B story, but the B is the real A.
This, and the one before, are the episode which really start digging into what DS9 is, and that is about the grey areas of the Trek universe, and how people, not the Federation, exist in this. We really start getting into Bajoran Politics, Faith, and how that shapes them.
O'Brien is a good dude for not banging his assistant Neela. Idk if I could have done the same since religious nuts tend to be crazy in bed. Speaking of, Neela was actually seen in the background of at least one previous episode. DS9 at least tried to be good and do a subtle set up.
Also note the computer program started with ANA, which was left over from when Anara from The Forsaken was going to fill the role
Religious fanatics led by Nurse Ratched? What could go wrong?! Hats off to Louise Fletcher for her brilliant turn as Vedek Winn. I’m into the first 38 mins of the episode, but the climax is a great example of how execution can ruin everything. Sisko’s leap is just….cringey. That said, I like the final moment. Anytime a subordinate can compliment their boss by saying “you’re not the devil” is high praise in my book. B for “bring on Season 2!”
I never know what people think of this one but I love it. It’s S tier for me. The fall out of the Kai’s death is a nice bit of continuity and Winn is an all too real villain, some lovely stuff for the O’Briens and another great closing scene. Ok the slow motion sequence might be a bit much but the score is great. Neela being introduced in Duet is a nice attempt at continuity too. S1 ends so strongly with this and Duet.
One of the more genuinely scary moments of Trek is the bombing of the school!
We've had an attempted lynching and a school bombing. You walk by holo-prostitues and gambling to get to the school, and there are just as many deadly 'anomalies of the week' as there were on the Enterprise. Miles? Where did you take your family??
I just love the way Colm Meaney says "Jumjaa Tree"
Same
Love Keiko for refusing to bend to outside pressure or compromise her principles here. Yet another episode that is perhaps more relevant today than when it aired.
Great one! After a season of uncertainty and middling material, we suddenly move on to exploring faith versus science, religious fanaticism, terrorism, and even a little bit of Bajoran politics. It was like in these last two episodes they said, "Oh, right, we forgot to make this show be about something!"
The introduction of one of the best villains in Star Trek. Winn Adami, by the way, is played by the gorgeous Louise Fletcher, who was Nurse Ratched in “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.”
Oh, joy. Space Karen.
I had the exact same, line for line comment.
While I like the message of this one, it kinda rams it straight down your throats. It's not exactly subtle In its messaging. And just when you think it can't get any less subtle it finds a way to hit you in the face with it even more directly. But it introduces us to a couple of new characters and a storyline about Bajor choosing a new Kai. Plus it features Keiko and Miles, so I think you'll like it.
What message are you speaking of?