UNCUT - Progress (DS9 S1E15) | Star Trek Journey 267
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DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores The sex score board Chief 1 Keiko 1 Quark 1 Morn .00001 +.00001 new DETAIL: Morn almost scores huge by landing Dax. She looked a little turned on by a few hairs I guess in the right spot.
Even though I followed your edited reactions on YouTube for the past few years, I'm really enjoying going back to the stand-out episodes (like this one) to do the full watch along now that this whole new world has been unlocked I should have done this a long time ago
I've always remembered the self-sealing stem bolt since I first watched this 20 odd years ago.
"Make it true, Doctor. Now," is one of my favorite Sisko one-liners. Right up there with "I had planned to say hello first and then take the office. But we can do it in whatever order you want"
One of my favs. Never tire of seeing this one. Seeing ST characters conclude that everything isn’t solved with the perfect speech, said at the perfect time to now-perfect beings is always up my alley. Even as a male, I’m forever thankful I was exposed to such a strong, compassionate, conflicted, kick-ass figure that is Kira Nerys growing up. Right there next to Ripley and Connor, for me.
Surprised how much you liked this one! It's my least favourite episode of season 1. A-plot: Kira and a stubborn old man talk at each other for 30 minutes. B-plot: Jake has to teach Nog what trading is?!
In fairness to comparing the actors for Jake vs Nog...Aron Eisenberg who played Nog was actually a young adult playing the role of a kid. He was in his 20s...so that's an advantage.
I think (?) it was about a ten-year age gap (just based on my memory)
TNG usually presents an image of perfection, moral clarity. DS9 muddies the waters, often, with no obvious answer thrust on you at the end, and it's up to you as the viewer to make up your own mind, with no one there to hold your hand. I love both versions but like Josh said, I'm glad they're different flavors. And that pizza box blanket trick, have we all done that? Lmao.
I find it a bit disturbing that the Bajorans want to harvest the moon for energy when not only it is inhabited by Bajorans but clearly an ecosystem is present (you can even hear the crickets during the night scene). Kira even suggests a slower, safer procedure but it’s rejected as the guy needed results in time for the equivalent of his quarterly statements. Isn’t this a smaller version of the Ghorman storyline in Andor?!
Yeah, the Bajorans weren't "in the right" either, especially from that perspective. But they were energy-starved due to the occupation. Desperate.
This episode is in many ways like the very, very strong episodes that this series will eventually produce, but it's a duller, more boring version of it. If you liked this one, strap in.
I'm surprised and impressed by how much they use real fire on this show. It must have been a little harrowing on the set.
DS9 Season 1 (sometimes Season 2) can be tough, Alex and Josh, but keep Trekking! It's worth the payoff later.
Oh, you liked it. Good. Said that when you were dreading the Nog plot at the start! Good character stuff in first 2 seasons.
TOS/TNG was the Roddenberry ideal DS9 exists to challenge that ideal There isn't always a solution, there aren't always a happy ending. Where previously it was about providing comforting answers that show how bright the future could be, we are now pivoting to stories where it isn't about the answer, but rather solely about the question. It lingers, unresolved. Replicators and post scarcity do not solve everything always. Buckle up, the best of this season is still yet to come
Since the guys like The Bonding as much as they do, we can look at it in this (spoiler free) way: Most people know that Roddenberry's idea was of this kind of evolved humanity that had overcome its various problems. However to Roddenberry those problems included more than just war or violence or materialism, and economic and political issues - it also included what he considered individual personality flaws, and this included almost anything that might involve anything negative, which means that most kinds of interpersonal conflict or internal personal struggles were supposed to be gone. The Bonding helps illustrate how far his ideas went here, because he had rejected this episode on the grounds that in the future, he said, people would *no longer grieve*. They had to make changes to the story to get it through. It's why there is the alien in the story who is impersonating the boy's mother, because as was often the case with Roddenberry's approach to things by making the source of the difficulty come from an alien it avoided saying that the "flaw" was from human beings. In other words, Gene could say that the reason this boy had the feelings that he did was because the alien got in there and mucked up the normal course of things. The episode is in the end still not quite to Roddenberry's standards as far as an "evolved humanity," so a lot of people who closely follow the behind the scenes stuff are still not entirely sure how the episode snuck past in the form that it did. This is a big part of why early TNG is so stiff and later TNG gets better and better. By season 3 Roddenberry was less involved, and of course then he eventually died and we really started to see things open up. Worth noting is that The Bonding was written by Ronald Moore, who would later go on to be one of the people running DS9. From the time Moore started to get more influence over TNG and later into DS9 one of his goals was to make the characters more human by giving them more flaws and by introducing more conflict. In creating DS9, Moore and others wanted to try to tread a middle ground. Now without any influence of Roddenberry at all they had the potential to give the characters many more flaws and make the show a lot darker, which they knew would be a lot more interesting. However, they also wanted to show at least some deference and respect to Gene's original vision. As we have seen in the first season, one of the ways DS9 does this is by having more non-humans who are not just characters of the week but are main cast members and by making the setting of the series distinctly non-human and even non-Federation so that we can have a lot of the conflict come from these places, all while still pushing a bit further with the human characters than Roddenberry would have agreed to.
When revisiting TNG S1 with you guys I had forgotten that there were some good episodes in there. With DS9 it is the opposite. I had forgotten how many clunkers were in the first season. PLEASE don’t be disheartened. This series gets much better. Exponentially better. Oh, BTW, Bajoran naming convention is like Japanese… family name first, given name last.
The Bajorans swap the name order you're used to, which is actually something other cultures in our real world do too, especially in East Asia like China, Japan, and Korea. So instead of John Doe it's Doe John, but the meaning is the same. Doe is the family name passed down from the parents, and John is the given name specific to the person. So if Ro Laren and Kira Nerys were to use the name ordering we're used to, they'd be Laren Ro and Nerys Kira. This is consistent between what Ro explained in TNG and how it works with Kira in DS9.
In Bajoran culture, the family name is their first name, and their personal name is their last name, same as in Chinese. In standard Euro-American tradition, it would be Nerys Kira and Laren Ro. In Bajoran, it's Ro Laren and Kira Nerys.
Brian Keith was a Big Hollywood Star and a Hell of an Actor he had a hit in the 80's With Hardcastle and Mccormick
Brian Keith, the main guest star, was most famous for his role as Uncle Bill in the family sitcom Family Affair. He shot himself in 1997, suffering from emphysema, lung cancer, depression, and financial troubles. Also, one of his seven children had killed herself just weeks before he did. Also, one of the actors who played one of the children on Family Affair died of a drug overdose a few years after the show went off the air.
Did Josh say he used to watch Days of our lives? Which era? Any other soaps?
Only from like 2003-2005 when my grandmother babysat me. We would watch Days of our Lives followed by Passions. Biggest thing I remember was the Marlena serial killer storyline.
I like to believe that there is no goverment interest in the land and that Odo did already know what Jake and Nog were doing. In my imagination Odo just wanted to annoy Quark and therefore he started the conversation near Jake/Nog so that they would sell to Quark, who would own worthless land... All the hints are there: * why does the Bajoran trade land when the government already contacted the other 3 neighbours? * why start the conversation with Odo/Quark within earshot of Jake/Nog? * how could Odo not find out who the owner are, its right in the name... But then... if I were right, the show would have shown an 'Odo smile' directly after the conversation with Quark instead of Odo shaking his head btw very entertaining reaction for this top season 1 episode!
The way I interpreted this episode is that the moon is representative of Kiera as a whole (body/mind) and the old man farmer, Mullibok, is Kiera's event schema; that is, a learned behavior at a subconscious level. Mullibok is the manifestation of Kiera's character that was forged in war. Now that the war is over, this schema of hers needs to change. By leaving the moon (Kiera's body/mind), that part of Kiera that Mullibok represents will be destroyed. It is said in this episode and past episodes, that Bajor needs Kiera. In this episode, Bajor needs the moon in order to rebuild itself from the war, but as we see, that tiny yet powerful schema named Mullibok is keeping the moon away from Bajor... it is keeping Kiera away from Bajor's future. Sisko then enters the scene as a disruption to Kiera's fixedness, challenging her to recognize the new reality and to affect change. So when Mullibok says he will die if he leaves, he is speaking literal truth. If Kiera removes Mullibok, her schema, she is killing an old version of herself. The scene fades into darkness, just as one does when death arrives.
Bajorans put their family names first and their given names second, just like the Hungarians, Japanese, Koreans, and Chinese. That’s why calling her “Ensign Laren,” Would be like addressing Captain Picard as “Captain Jean-Luc.” That’s why Kira Nerys is called “Major Kira” by her work colleagues, but the old man wanted to address her as “Nerys,” like you would in an informal, personal, or intimate situation.
I came to say the same thing. Her name is Kira (family name) Nerys (given name) in that order as Bajorans put their family name first.
I haven't watched this in 30 years and I remember feeling that the old man was just being selfish. Now I'm 70, and all I can say is, why doesn't he just negotiate a settlement, Gold Pressed Latium and a huge plantation on Bajor.
If you love the morally grey ... this is the Trek Show for you :P
So happy you guys loved this one, this is one of the first episodes where the show really starts to find its voice. Your reaction to this episode has me very excited for the rest of the series.
I didn't used to be a fan of this episode and thought it was boring. I skipped it for years. Recently it's grown on me more and more. I think Kira in particular is brilliant here. B
If you enjoyed this type of episode, you'll have a lot to look forward to! To me, this is the first episode in the series that feels like what's to come. Just need to get out of that early DS9 mid-episode minefield.
Like so many others this episode grew on me with aging. Of course this was boring for a space adventure hungry kid. Later I felt with Kira, now I feel with Mulibok. Old ugly trees ...
Indeed, this episode is a better indicator of what most of us like/remember about DS9. As to this episode, younger me probably would have ended up where Kira does by the end. Older me would probably offer to hang out with the old man, if he'd have me, until the air choked us both out. I haven't read the other replies yet, and I'm guessing others have already explained, but just in case: Bajoran names start with the family name first. Kira and Ro are the family names, Nerys and Laren are their individual names.
To further extol on "Cranky Grandma" -- Anti-Trek is what DS9 does so well, which is why it's such fantastic Trek :)
Yeah, practical fire. Early 90's CGI fire would have looked like a bad joke and ruined the scene. It was already on the nose watching her set fire to several precise locations pre-soaked in kerosene.
Self-sealing stembolts!
It's great they didn't reveal what they actually are and do and the Chief didn't know either.
“It’s too safe…” Let me know if you feel the same after the end of season 1.
I'm sure its already covered, but Bajoran names are like Korean names...family name first, given name second. Her family name is Kira. Ensign Ro's given name is actually Laren. She just likes to be called Ro familiarly.
Brian Keith was a very loved and distinguished actor. He is part of the secret sauce of this episode.
It's funny the audience was upset when Tasha was killed so they came up with a whole race of people with her same backstory
I agree about the TNG Season 1 comparison. TNG was the first new trek in 20 years. By the time DS9 started, they'd already been doing new Trek for 5 years, and doing it well. There's no good excuse for DS9 stumbling so hard out the gate.
Both of the first two seasons they start out doing DS9, Lapse back into TNG, and then go full throttle into being DS9 at the end. I think it took them awhile to be comfortable with doing their own take on Trek and realizing you weren't going to win TNG fans over with TNG lite.
Guest Brian Keith's life was reflected in this episode. He was very ill and grieving the loss of his beloved daughter. Keith took his own life sometime after this episode
“Ooh what’s Nog gonna do this episode…” Now you guys are getting it 😎
Loved your reaction to this! Just makes me more excited for seeing your reactions to episodes to come. DS9 does morally grey episodes so well!
His initial stories about taking out six Cardies when he was starving, and ploughing the grand with his hands and gravel with his teeth was obviously part of his "charm" and over the top obviously exagerated story which contains truth in terms of, metaphorically, how he feels about what he accomplishes and how tough he it was and how he sees himself when it's obviously a tongue in the cheek over the top tall tale. Really, that story establishes what sort of character this is, and shows the remainder of the "nasty manipulative curmudgen" that is balanced by him being a sympathetic character who charms Kira and who she relates to.
It's not just the cottage, its the whole farm he built. You can't beam down and entire farm and environment to a planet on top of something else. While the Federation probably does have industrial scale transporters, it's less clear the Bajorans do or even have transporters period. They have been occupied for decades, and the Federation doesn't give technology to worlds that don't have it. Remember, the Cardassians were less advanced then the Federation technologically, but much more so then the Bajorans. It's not because the Bajorans aren't smart. It's been said they were an ancient culture who was doing things when humans were still "cavemen". But they are also a very religious culture (because there Gods are real) and it doesn't seem like pre-occupation Bajoran society was all about excessive technological development. Their relative advacement early on versus lack of technological development is surely a result of their society's complex role with the Prophets. (sorry for so many comments, I seem to have a lot to say on this one) Jake and Nog save the day- the land they bought winds up being ideal for the guy to move.
I don't think he thought he was definitely going to die. I think he was prepared to, but thought he would manage to survive somehow. They definitely would have done it. Bajor is a planet suffering from decades of brutal occupation and stripping of it's resources. It's not post scarcity Earth. There are still people who need things like heat for the winter. The Bajorans have suffered, are suffering, and are hard headed. They aren't going to stop a project to provide power and heat to hundreds of thounsands of people who othewise would have had it just because one obstinate man refuses to leave a moon.
He's tough, but he wasn't the bad guy manipulating Kira which would have been a much weaker story.
Notes from Memory Alpha. Michael Piller agree with you and says they realized in the middle of the year they had kind of "lost Kira" who was supposed to be the second lead after Sisko, which lead to an increased focus on her in the back end of the season. I didn't think of this but Memory Alpha notes this episode is similar in ways to the season 3 TNG episode "The Ensigns of Command" where Data destroying the aqueduct mirrors Kira destroying the kiln and the cottage to force the residents/resident to leave. Writer Peter Allan Fields was not happy with the way the episode turned out because originally Mulibok was more complex and less likable, intentionally manipulating Kira's feelings. There is still some of that but it comes off as making him Likable. I disagree with Fields, the story is better where Kira sympathizes with him generally and having to make hard chocies then a simple "bad guy fanatic manipulates Kira and she realizes he's playing her" General question for Josh and Alex. Of Course any of the Patreons can access Memory Alpha, but you can't because of Spoilers. Do you find these tidbits from Memory Alpha interesting or not really? I would think it would be up your ally. People generally don't comment on these because I'm just summarizing stuff. If you guys don't find these interesting I can stop doing them.
I don’t know if they do, but I do
One minor thing that bugged me., It was all about Mullibok and his refusal t leave and at the end Kira says "two to beam up" What about the other two bajorans? They seemed as fanatical as Mullibok, Having them be mute from Cardassian torture (did they rip out their tongues and vocal chords?) was an interesting choice, as it wasn't a group of people but Mullibok making the case. But why include them at all? I guess for the drama when Mullibok was shot. But what happened to them? Where they arrested after they attacked the Bajoran officers? Were they forceably relocated? At the end it seems clear Mullibok is the only one left but I don't think we ever learned their fates unless I missed a line. I guess we are to assume they were arrested for assault, by why not mention that? Unless they did and I missed it.
They said after the scene where the guards come that the other two were taken, so they are already gone
I think the thing with my reaction to her reacting is the Kai is that it does feel earned because I've seen the whole show so it makes perfect sense for her character. I think that's sort of what I and others have been saying about how season 1 is actually more enjoyable once you've seen the whole show because you understand the characters better and why they are the way they are. Temporally, for you guys it doesn't feel earned, but it feels very different looking back in hindight.
ok, one more thing about Battle Lines. You guys say you see the relationship develop. Kira didn't have a personal relationship with Opaka, she had a relationship to her as a spiritual leader and a symbol of Bajor and the resistance and one of the few figures that was universally loved by the Bajorans who are otherwise very quarrlesome. Opaka continues with the idea of "strong Bajoran women" which we've seen from the Judge at the Dax Hearing to the Teenage leader of the tribe in the last episode. It males perfect sense to me. I've already talked about it making better sense in hindsight, but I also think you guys are judging on sort of that metric of "how tv builds relationships" and not getting what has alreeady been established about Kira and Opaka and why her reaction would make sense- it's NOT that they had a personal relationship, but everything we know about Kira and what we have been told about the Kai makes it make sense. Sorry to harp on this, but you guys are kind of harping on it and I just strongly disagree with this take. I feel like there's a thing where if you don't get what they are trying t do and you think it is someting else, you will feel it's bad but you're judging it on the wrong standard. It's not "do we have this personal relationship established", it's Kira' relation to the Kai as a symbol, and what she means to Bajor and what Bajor means to Kira has been established. In general, I am getting a bit concerned that there will be aspects of DS9 you don't get. You saw the Dalrok plot in terms of conventional trekl "this is fake so it's bad and showuld be exposed or there's a twist" when it's a commentary on religion and community that it felt like you missed entirely. There are already aspects of the show that you seem barely cognizanr of or aren't remembering. I'm a bit concenred your expectations for what Trek "is" might color your reaction to DS9. That was a thing back in the day, many fans felt like "this wasn't trek." They definitely are trying new things, but I feel like you're not seeing some of those because there not a lens you're used to looking through. As you say it's about execution, but if you miss what they are trying to execute and think they're trying to execute something else, the execution will seem poor because you think it's trying to do something it's not. An analogy would be like trying to see a satire on a genre as a straight up attempt at a ganre,. Through that lens, you will think the execution is terrible because you totally miss what they are trying to do. I think your reaction to Buffy was part of this phenomenon, and as I have mentioned, DS9 is the most "buffy-esque" of Trek. (The Actor who plays Quark also played the no good second high school principle on Buffy. Some writers for DS9 went on to write for Game of Thrones. DS9 is DEFINITELY the most "games of throney" trek in that the whole thing is a complex epic saga with multiple interecting "big themes". That's not obvious in season 1 per ce, but I feel like you are missing come of what is being built in season 1, and obviously I can't be more specific because of spoilers. But definitely the spiritual themes just don't seem to be things you vibe with or even seem to be ware of. I get this because of the way "religion" has been generally treated in Trek, and you're looking at it through that lens, but I think you're definitely missing core elements that are already being built subtly.
The Bajoran name thing is simple. There last names come first, there first name second. That's all there is too it. Ro Laren would be Laren Ro by our way of doing given name first, familyname second. Kira Nerys would be Nerys Kira. It's not that complicated, lol. The thing about Ro was she kept the Bajoran tradition of Family name first, Given name second. Other Bajora (the Bajoran diaspora as opposed to Bajorans who live on Bajor, many fled the Occupation) have adopted to the Federation standard of given name first, family name second to assimilate. Everyone on Bajor still does it the Bajoran way. Ro Laren was someone who left Bajor and joined starfleet, but unlike other Bajorans in starfleet she kept the Bajoran naming convention instead of adapting to the Federation convention (which seems to be based on humans dominating starfleet. I don't think this is spoiler, you guys know Enterprise is a prequel se pre-Federation, so a lot of that gets fleshed out. Why Humans are so central to the Federation gets fleshed out in Enterprise which again being a prequel deals with pre-federation history and explains a lot of that. That might be a technical spoiler but it doesn't really tell you anything you don't know other then Starfleet was originally Earth based which is obvious since its HQ is on Earth and dominated by Humans. And you guys know Enterprise is a prequel which is set pre-Federation, so obviously a lot of the history is fleshed out. Not giving any details on that other then Starfleet existing pre-Federation, but not really a spoiler because even if it was called something else before the Federation, it's obvious that Starfleet is dominated by Humans and its HQ and Academy is on Earth, and it's already Established Earth is the Federation Capital (specifically San Francisco). Back to the point, what's implied from Ro isn't a retcon. It just seemed like most of the Bajorans fled Bajor. That's probably true in a sense- a large number of the ones who didn't flee were killed. But since we knew there was an occupation, there were obviously still Bajorans living on Bajor. And DS9 season starts not long after the Cardassians final withdrawal from Terok Nor (Deep Space Nine in english). Chain of Command noted that the Cardassians were about to being their final withdrawl from Bajor. Now, the Occupation clearly ended before the withdraw from Terok Nor in that there is a provincial government, but we can assume that at the time of "Ensign Ro" in the early fifth season, the occupation was still going on even if it was in its final months, which the Federation of Bajora not on Bajor may not have been aware of. If you follow the timeline, the Earth-Cardassian war officially ended after season 2. Now obviously they weren't at full scale war, so presumably the main part of the war ended before TNG season 1, but there were still skirmishes and perhaps a process of negotiations that didn't end till the end of Season 2. Keep in mind in Season 1 and before, the Federation was suffering from the Gillworm invason which was actively weakening the Federation. My headcanon says this is why the Galaxy class ships were builty as they were frankly a mission creep boondoggle. Evidenced by the fact that seemingly everything on the Enterprise has need to be replaced; the computer core, the warp drive, etc and why it runs into so many technical problems when the Kirk's Enterprise was a much sturdier if less advanced ship that never had random breadowns. The gillworms can be seen for starfleet being so undershipped for it's needs, with utopia Planetia as the sole space ship development and shipyard. Based on Wolf 359 and events we've seen with the Romulans, starfleet was woefully undersupplied in terms of ships relative to the Federation's size in the TOS days. Commander Shelby was overhauling the fleet, but the gillworms has been underming the Fedeartion for a while by that point in season TNG. So it makes sense instead of ending the war, the leadership would have let negotiations drag on even if they weren't in full scale conflict. It's a bit surprising the Cardassians didn't take advantage, but I think we can assume they lost the war fairly badly, and they are somewhat technologically behind the Federation as opposed to the Romulans who have close parity, at least in terms of military tech. The details of why the Occupation ended are something for later, But I think we can assume at this point in the trek timeline, the Cardassians have significantly recovered from the lost war and are asserting their power again. I know Josh and Alex aren't as much into the whole fictional universe, but I and many fans am, so this post is also directed to the community. I think that goes back to the "S" and "N" type fan thing, Even in TOS days, Roddenberry wanted to keep things vague, but fans were fascinated by the details of the fictional universe and insisted on having things answered so as TOS went on that became more established. We forget, but in most of Season 1 TOS, the idea of the Federation wasnt around and there were references to the vulcans being conquered (which I think has to know refer t Spock's specific cultural group of Vulcans conquered in the wars during the Sundering) For example, notoriously, in "Balance of Terror", the bases along the Neutral Zone were referred to as "Earth Bases" and the original war and the treaty was said to be wit Earth, not the Federation. As trek goes on (and DS9 is really the one that takes this to another level) the world building of the fictional universe really becomes a more and more established things where modern fans know the relative locations and history of the Alpha/Beta Quadrant Axis. Josh and Alex don't seem to be as much into this sort of thing. Personally, so much of what I get out of Trek is the fictional world and connecting all the timelines and things going on into a coherent narrative. Star Trek Online did an EXCELLENT job of this with its plot, incorporating and featuring practically all the worlds and races of all Trek and giving the entire galaxy a lived in history. For me this is a huge part of what's fun about Trek. But I get that Alex and approach it differently, primarily through the lens of evaluating a tv show that being "into" the world. (Trek was one of the things that made this sort of fandom popular. Althought there were things before like Tolkien's world or the Cthulu Mythos, Trek was really the first to have a fanbase so fascinated by the details of the fictional universe and were considered weird for that but now its super common with all sorts of franchises. Sorry for a bit of a ramble, lol. That's also why its hard for me and why I sort of want to do my own DS9 channel where I can talk from an "in universe" perspective, and evaluate episodes in terms of whats they are establishing and how it fits into the greater events at the time. As Josh and Alex have seen, Trek has already done, not "retcons" but something else, where later episodes add more layer of detail to what was going on in previous episodes. This isn't a retcon but expanding on what's been established. So it's tough for me because I look at episodes from an "in universe perspective" which is very different then the focus of this channel. By the way, in terms of starting my own (which would focus on DS9 and later stuff and be totally different from what Josh and Alex are doing) I am serious about it thought I couldn't start till August. I would love to talk to Josh and Alex and get some ideas about the practical aspect. I know exactly what I want to do on the content side- it's more the technical "how" side I feel I could learn a lot from you guys. This isn't something I need to do now, like i said it won't be possible to august, but if either of you would be willing to chat with me at some point, I'd be super grateful, and of course on the channel I;d shout out you guys and recommend people to check out yours. I've already outlined my idea to different groups i'm connected with on social media and it has gotten a lot of interest. It's the practical steps of people with experience that would be super useful versus trying to figure it out on my own from scratch. I'm sure there are tutorials and videos about it, but nothing beats actually being able to talk to people who've done it and ask questions.
Sorry this was a super rambling post even for me. In Reno on crazy little sleep, lol.
I still think you're not fulling grasping her horror at the Kai dying. The Kai was the leader of her faith and the symbol of the Bajoran spirit. In the pilot she was said as the one woman who could unite Bajor. It's hard to understand how deeply her death would affect Kira.
I think the closest analogy to our own experiences would be if an extremely devout Catholic took the Pope with them on a road trip. If you crash the car and kill the Pope, that devout Catholic is going to be shook.
it's a shame you guys are getting cynical about DS9. The thing is, it's get better, Not just a little better, amazingly better, It's a shame you are getting cynical, but try to keep the faith a bit. The end of the season gets much better and shows what DS9 can do. The second season is an incredible upgrade from the first, and with the third season on, it's lights out. People have been telling you this, but try to keep the faith guys. It will pay off. May the Prophets guide you.
Not too bothered by the reaction to to first season so far, but for me, this is one of those "OK, but if you don't like THIS one, we got a problem" episodes. One of my favourites of the season...
I always thought that it is kind of fucked up that the Bajorans are willing to eradicate a habitable moon. You would think they’d need land and a colonizable moon. But no they want to raise the moon to harvest energy.
Yeah it bothers me too. Surely there are other moons in the system with molten cores that can be harvested.
When you think about it, Kira is like Goku; she spent the first 14 episodes in the background powering up while all the lesser characters had their episodes, then she swoops in and steals the show
lol @ powering up in the background. Oh DBZ.
You guys have misunderstood the Bajoan naming thing - it's not that they don't use their surnames, it's that they place their family name before their given name, like they do in Japan for example. So Ro Lauren is ensign Ro, and Kira Nerys is Major Kira.
This episode gives you a glimpse of why Kira is my favorite character in the series.
When I watched this with my young boys (who loved it), the Nog-Jake trading really resonated, and self-sealing stem-bolts come up in conversation even now, years later.
I like what Josh says about how Trek is "many things." TOS and TNG are certainly more humanistic and affirmative. DS9 is by far a very *pessimistic* perspective on Trek-verse. For what it's worth, you can go to each show for a significantly different tone and take on storytelling. DS9 gets a very niche dedicated audience, and I imagine it's a very vocal group... and vocal Internet culture seems to lean on the pessimistic side, at least from my subjective observation.
I wouldn’t call DS9 Pessimistic. It’s just far from earth.
I think I commented on another episode that so far we oddly get more development of Nog than Jake. Obviously, we get more into the character of Jake as we go, but I had forgotten how he really was like the "sidekick." Let's be honest, the bad influence is always more interesting than the good kid.
and yet Jake is main cast and nog isn't. I think they really struggled to find interesting things for Jake to do/rapidly realised Nog was a more interesting character.
Nog is what Wesley could have been. The accepted wisdom after the 70s and 80s was "children and sci-fi don't mix." But it's all about how you write it. Let the kids BE kids, and give them an appropriate storyline.
On rewatches, getting to this episode is such a relief. Like coming up from a dive where you held your breath too long. That mid season slump is brutal in S1. I expected this would be the kind of story you'd enjoy, and I'm glad you did. Progress is a good episode. It would be heavily overshadowed in later seasons, but it's one of the first real signs DS9 was finding it's footing. The problem solver in me always wants to find a practical solution here, like beaming his house down to Bajor. Moreover the fusion reactors on a ship like the Enterprise, to say nothing of the warp core, would probably be able to provide the residential power needs of a whole planet. Just doesn't seem like ruining an entire habitable moon is necessary when energy is so abundant. I get that's not the point of the episode, I just wish they had a better explanation. Still, solid episode, great guest star, decent B plot, and a turning point for Kira. Either a B+ or A-.
Bajor would likely be considered a “protectorate” of the Federation at this point. There are probably rules about what tech they can and can’t share. Plus we don’t know exactly what infrastructure they had or needed, so maybe this was the best they could do for the moment. (That planet in the Trill episode of TNG was using the same tech, and they were either a Federation world or an ally.)
I like this one a lot, it’s one of those grey areas that DS9 does so well. Still don’t know if Kira did the right thing 😬 One of the best of the first season easily.
This episode hits me every time I see it. The actor for Mullibok, Brian Keith looks and behaves so much like my late granddad did. And while I am always sad at the end, seeing him finally resignating to the thought, that he has lost the fight, I also love the grey area solution they were forced to take here. One of the first really good episodes in DS9. Also, the Nog side plot is just funny indeed. Self sealing stem bolts are to Trek what the three sea shells are to Demolition Man.
Brian Keith was such a treasure of an actor. RIP.
I liked him as the father in The Parent Trap. They don't really churn out that type of famous character actor that just goes 30 years hopping from show to show.
As you might already know by now depending on how far you are along, Bajorans reverse the first name/ last name from most humans. Addressing a Bajoran by their last name is as personal as addressing a human by their first name.
You guys nailed it. To me as well, this episode wasn't really about the old man at all. It was about Kira, and her coming to terms with her violent but necessary past. She needs to find a role for herself in peace...peace she has never known her entire life, because the Cardassians had oppressed the Bajorans for a good 50 years! Think of people like Captain Maxwell in The Wounded, who couldn't do what Kira is only now struggling to attempt. He wasn't a Bajoran, but very much also a victim of the Cardassians. To open it up a bit more, this episode could be about the Bajorans as a whole. This is my second favorite of season 1. My FAVORITE one...well, we will get there!
Bajorans have their family first and personal names after that, like Chinese and Japanese cultures do. So for Major Kira Nerys, her family name is Kira and her personal (given) name is Nerys
Brian Keith. I have always liked the actor. Grew up with him in Family Affair. A TV series in the 60’s.
Like some of the patrons said, this is the DS9 we fans keep raving about. I will not give any spoilers, but just know that the shades of gray of DS9 will only get darker and deeper in subsequent episodes/seasons. You guys are in for a ride. And I love what you said about comparing DS9 to TOS and TNG. I always think of it like this: TOS/TNG represent what the ideal pinnacle of humankind and evolution could be. DS9 represents the mankind that I actually think we can evolve to in a couple hundred years. Better, but not perfect.
And to clarify, that's shades of gray the expression, not Shades of Gray the TNG episode lol
In the end, Jake and Nog got money from Quark for things Quark wanted to throw away because they simply had the better earlobes in this situation.
I always let the end theme play while they start talking about the episode. Anything else feels wrong to me.
I've actually had arguments with other DS9 (and Kira) fans who do think she's a fascist for what she did in this episode. I don't want to surprise you guys, but I, uh... DO NOT AGREE.
Swerve! You’re the FASCIST!
GLORIOUS!!
Ha. As soon as he started mentioning tightening his notches, I was like "I wonder if the boys know Troll 2 with the hunger pains line."
GOAT movie scene