UNCUT - Battle Lines (DS9 S1E13) | Star Trek Journey 263

This is one of my favorites. Kinda weird they didn’t like Kira’s performance. Oh well.

DS9 sex scoreboard catch up version No scores that I saw (remember I am only catching up with the short versions) The sex score board Chief 1 Keiko 1 Quark 1

Ah yes. The great Nagus Opaca. ^^

The satellite’s attack takes ages and not once does Sisko say back off or evasive manoeuvres. Just raises shields. Why not launch a homing buoy or a probe as soon as they started crashing? They launched antimatter pods. They didn’t destroy the crashed runabout either… just left a fully functional starfleet computer and god knows what else down there.

An interesting thing I just found out that is good to bring up in this episode. In the Pilot, there was a deleted scene where Opaka explains to Sisko why he was chosen as the emissary. Basically because he was an outsider and a non-believer and people shouldn't peer into the fce of their own gods. It is kind of weird that the whole time of this episode, Opaka is with Sisko but never refers to him as emissary or even brings it up since it was such a major plot point and literal title of the pilot. I would be fascinated to know how the writers dropped these various seeds and to what degree they thought of following with them. Rewatching Season 1, it's interesting how little of the show's mythology was really dealt with even though the seeds had been planted. As I said, Josh didn't even seem to remember the timeless wormhole aliens or that they were the Bajorans gods. Pretty sure he would have no recollection of the whole "Opaka anointing Sisko the emmisary" thing. Which makes sense, because though it was a big deal in the pilot, they don't even mention it here. Does Opaka even refer to the wormhole as the celestial temple? Reading on Memory Alpha, the insertion of Opaka was for the spiritual plotline but to have what at the time was a non-essential character be stuck. It does seem like at this point, the writers for individual episdoes were not totally filled in on the show's established mythology, like there wasn't a DS9 "series bible" like there was for TOS, or at least it didn't include all the stuff that had already been established. I think the lack of these elements and trying to more do standalone "you can watch this for the first time" episodes which was undoubtedly heavily influenced by the network really hurt the first season, as rewatching it I am reminded how little the mythology and setting of the show were being established in favor or noir flavored monster of the week type episodes. Like a lot of the stuff that felt established in season 1 really gets established in season 2, which makes season 1 this weird kind of "pre" deep space nine where so many of the elements that made it what it was just aren't there yet. And it seems like they are still feeling out the characters, although perhaps not as awkwardly as season 1 TNG where so many of the character ideas from Roddenberry got scrapped or rechannled. As time went on, DS9 actors were given a lot of leeway to develop their characters, with notable incidents where scripts were rewritten because the actor felt what was written wasn't true to the character, Its interesting and surprising to see how much at this point the actors only have a partial sense of their characters. This seems most true for Bashir, who really develops the most from his roots, but really for all of the characters, except for O'Brien, Quark, and Odo. Even Kira who we have gotten a strong sense of isn't fully fleshed out. Its funny, because in some ways it IS comparable to TNG season 1, except as they said, its not blatant, its just kind of treading water a bit. It's hard to say which changes more from its first season DS9 or TNG. TNG is probably more noticeable because of the visual differences. but DS9 changes quite a lot although far more orgnically. I am looking forward to "that" episode, the clear highlight of seasonn 1, the one we know is coming that really showcases what DS9 is capable of, I'll be fascinated to see how they react to that one.

Good stuff with O’Brien, nice conflict in moments with Sisko and Kira and Sisko and Bashir. Jonathan Banks does a great job with what he’s given. Not too bad at all.

I never rewatched this episode until now. It really didn’t do anything for me.

It's an episode that tweaks the 'Monster of the week' plot a bit into something slightly more interesting. I get the point they are making but I'm not really sure if it needs to be made. I'd put it in the 'B-' range for an initial viewing, with minimal rewatch value.

This one is an interesting idea, but in reality everyone would have stopped fighting like after 3 or so respawns. I’m not sure I quite get the science either, like what would happen if someone got blown up? Would their body somehow morph back together T-1000 style? And what happens when each side keeps spawning in the enemy base? They just let them go?

The choice not to reprogram the nanites always seemed repugnant to me. Nobody deserves this punishment...so reprogram and let them fight to the death...that is the moral choice.

Nana’s reaction is like some overacted stage play reaction to make sure the audience see it

For Nana Visitor in this episode, I agree the emotional pain demonstrated when the Kai dies feels over the top, but in her discussion later on with the Kai, I found that acting very convincing. But I have no professional acting knowledge, maybe it was technically incorrect, but being a layman I'm very forgiving. As long as I buy into it, well done.

This is kind of off topic, but for those of you who have read my other comments about Keirsey’s Temperaments, and how what Temperament you are affects your chemistry with other people, I thought I’d make an observation here. I’m pretty sure Josh and Alex are “S-Types” (Sensory Types) while most of the typical Star Trek fan base are “N-Types” (Intuitive Types). The main differences between these two types are in what they value, how they perceive the world, what they find most interesting, and what they are most observant of. In this case, you can read a lot of this in people by what they observe, and what they enjoy most about Star Trek. For example, whenever someone in the comments says something like “OMG TA I can’t believe you didn’t notice that! That was so obvious! That was the whole point of the entire show!” You’re probably reading an S/N clash. This also explains why TA’s opinion of the episodes are often vastly different from the general consensus of the fan base. S-Types and N-Types like different things about Star Trek, and they are going to notice different things about it. For instance, Josh and Alex are very good at noticing things that have to do with how the episode was made, and how well it works as a piece of entertainment. They’ll notice things like who wrote it, who directed it, creative directing and cinematography decisions, whether or not ADR was used, quality of the acting, and story structure. That’s because these are all tangible things you can SENSE, hence Sensory Type. What S-Types tend to like best about Star Trek is the emotional investment, the character development, the quality, and overall, the entertainment. They also tend to like mystery episodes, or out-of-the-ordinary episodes for this reason. In general, S-Types tend to watch Star Trek as good TV. The worst thing that an episode can be to them is boring. N-Types however, are all about the abstract stuff. Things like, “what is the episode ultimately about?” “What ideas does it explore, and how well does it explore them?” “Does the science in the show make sense?” “Does the show feel like everything makes sense in-universe and has great world building?” “Does the technobabble make sense, and pull us into the realism of the world?” “What is the show ultimately saying about what humanity is, where we are going, and what our ideals should be?” “Does the show explore universal themes well?” “How can we make Star Trek real?” “Is Star Trek’s world and characters practical, or too idealistic?” “What does Star Trek have to say about spirituality, religion, human nature and other abstract themes?” N-Types are also going to pay more attention to the practical science stuff and world building things like where all the quadrants of the galaxy are and what lies in each quadrant; the practical design of the ships, stations, and runabouts; and the names and histories of all the species. N-Types tend to watch Star Trek as an immersive world, idea exploration, and a how-to manual for life. They don't even treat it as TV. The worst thing that an episode can be to them is stupid, non-sensical, contradictory, and/or meaningless. In general, S-Types aren’t going to notice or care as much about the stuff that N-Types do, and vice versa. Let's take The Bonding for example: S-Types like TA like this episode mainly because it shows the enterprise crew dealing with grief in a real way. If the entire episode were just the crew grieving, that would be great for them. But N-Types care more about the plot with the alien which is used to explore the ideas that the episode is about. Ideas like “Why do we need grief?” “Why does grief suck?” “Why can’t we just shut grief off?” “Is grief a good thing?” “Is grief necessary?” “Will we ever be “enlightened” enough as a species to where we no longer grieve?” “Would we ever even want that?” “What about grief makes us human?” So the main reason why TA remembers this episode so fondly while most of the fanbase is lukewarm on it, is TA remembers it for the character stuff and the grief and doesn’t really care about the plot at all, while the fanbase remembers it mainly for the plot and what it has to say, and doesn’t really remember the character stuff at all. And I’m not saying that TA doesn’t care about the ideas of the episode, or N-Types don’t care about the crew grieving. I’m just saying that if each side had to choose just one aspect of the episode over the other, S-Types would choose the character stuff and grief while N-Types would choose the plot that explores universal themes. S-Types also tend to like short, fun little comments like the Patron Takes, while N-Types like to deep dive and write long analytical essays. Guess which one I am lol. N-Types also tend to come across as kind of stuck up, judging, condescending, and elitist, so sorry if that’s coming across right now. It’s not my intention. Or to bring this back on topic a bit for this episode, N-Types love episodes like The Emissary, characters like Kai Opaka, and ideas like The Prophets, because these are all very abstract things. They’re about things like trauma psychology, spirituality, religion, your soul’s life path, and the non-linear concept of time, healing, and destiny. But, we also had to fill in the blanks with a lot of this stuff in our heads, especially at first. Season 1 really doesn’t do a good job of spelling all of this out beyond just introducing the concepts. For instance, we’re shown a little bit of how spiritual Kai Opaka is, and TOLD pretty much everything else about her. Season 1 doesn’t use her in any way that’s going to make the average person care about her at all, or even remember her, and I’m still not sure what TA’s interpretation of The Prophets are at this point. I can see why S-Types like TA wouldn’t care about or notice stuff like that right now, but they are going to like stuff like Q-Less. But yeah, we are all different people and we all watch Star Trek for different reasons and bring different insights into it. One of the reasons why I watch TA is BECAUSE they are going to notice all of those S-Type strength things that I otherwise would have never noticed despite having watched these shows over 20 times. Am I going to cringe when they miss something that I think is obvious? Yes. But there’s also a lot I can learn from them, as we all can learn from each other.

A mid level episode.

The original script actually did include humans and cardassians (remember the federation and cardassia fought a war) but they felt it would be impossible to make it look like our crew taking sides. The episode was apparently inspired by the TOS episode "Day of the Dove" (where the being pits the klingons and starfleet against each other but they can't die) Come to think of how close the premises were, Day of the Dove was clearly the superior use of the concept although the author wanted to use that idea and moreso showcase the utter futility of it, sort of like, what if two enemy groups had actually gotten stuck in that situation for centuries like the enterprise crew and klingons were at risk of having happened? The episode was intended to be very spiritual and really a showcase for the Bajoran religion and that aspect of the show, which I don't think you guys quite got. It's not "here's this sci fi premise and the religous stuff on the side, the themes of death and rebirth and whether someone could leave violence behind or let it consume were supposed to resonate throught "both" plots, and I don't think you guys felt that. I did get that vibe so I enjoyed it more. But I understand it's not so much typical for trek, so I don't know how you guys will feel about DS9's "spiritual side" which is a major ingredient starting with the pilot.

I think for me, kira was experiencing this intense spiritual crisis. You have to remember, this is the leader of her faith who was a symbol of inspiration for the resistance, and she just saw her die and then got the sense that the Kai saw similarity in her and the fighters. I buy it with the intensity of the character. This episode really establishes the importance of her faith which up till know we haven't understood as a part of her. It's supposed to very raw and overwhelming.

These Season 1 episodes are boring and very mid.

Yeah, the acting was suboptimal, here. The best performance was the actress playing Opaca. She had the screen presence that could break through the highly mediocre writing. Jonathan Banks was also working as well as can be expected with the material he had. Anyone who's seen Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul knows how extremely legit he is. Brand name actors trying to work a script from Temu.

Dorn, Frakes, and Sirtis weren't any great shakes in the first season and they got A LOT better. The same will happen here.

Right in the thick of these mid season blues. Some episode ideas can be elevated with more time in the oven so those get held back and refined, while others just aren't worth that extra squeeze so you send them to production as is.

This is one of my more memorable episodes of season one. I like the Kira scenes and the concept in general.

I can't say it's a bad episode, but I never cared for it. I thought if I watched it with your reaction now it would feel different... nope. But it was cool to figure out the main guest star is Mike from Breaking Bad.

I disagree about Nana Visitor's acting out her chatacter's grief at the shocking and meaningless (so it seemed) death of her culture's revered religious leader. I've experienced some shocking and deeply traumatic events in my life, and I didn't always just cry a few tears as I stood by stoically. Granted the context of just how important the Kai is to Bajor, isn't properly explained and fleshed out, this early in the series. So if any mistake was made, I'd say it is that this story was told before we were ready to appreciate it.

I keep hearing "Alpaca". I cant un-hear it now. This is the kind of episode you play when you want to fall asleep, and dream of dying alpacas.

I don't mind the reaction to Opaka dying since she was top religious person plus the only person Kira said could fix her planet. Wasn't just Jesus, she was also George Washington. My favorite thing in the episode is Julian: "I'm sorry, her thoracic vertabrae are crushed!" Then he starts crushing what's left of those vertabrae into the ground even further.

When Kira discussed her war trauma with Opaka, I suddenly noticed the similarities to this scene: OPAKA: Your pain runs deep. KIRA: What do you know of my pain? OPAKA: Let us explore it ...together. ...Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. ...Share your pain with me and gain strength from it. KIRA: Where did you get this power? OPAKA: The power was within you. KIRA: It is as if a weight has been lifted from my heart. How can I repay you for this miracle?

In relation to your takeaway on that final Patron question, do you think Star Wars will ever make an appearance in Star Trek? 😜

In recent episodes you've mentioned there has been maybe too much of Quark. You didn't specifically mention it, but did you notice he wasn't in this one?

In defense of Kira's overacting, Kai Opaka IS supposed to be like her spouse or son or daughter dying. Especially since Kira doesn't have a spouse, son, or daughter, Opaka was the closest person she had to that. To the Bajorans, and especially those in the Resistance like Kira, their faith in their religion was all that got them through, and Opaka was the perfect symbol of that hope and faith. So seeing Opaka die here is like seeing her faith, or her god die. I guess you could equate it to she just saw Jesus get crucified. And actually you know what? I know a lot of people compare the Kai to the Pope, but Kai Opaka really is more like Jesus than the Pope. You can tell from the pilot that she understands the prophets so well that when she speaks, she really is speaking with the voice of their gods. "Look for answers from WITHIN commander." Unfortunately, the season didn't really set this up at all, so the audience ends up not caring about this moment. I think they were relying on the crying to inform the audience of how important Opaka was. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that.

Yawn. What did I miss? Sorry, guys, but a lot of these episodes just put me to sleep. I don't care about the characters or what's going on. I know it is supposed to get better later on, as all Berman Star Trek series do, but for now, episodes like this are just a sedative for me.

When Jonathan Banks laughed I wondered if he laughed once on Breaking Bad. It sounded so unfamilar.

I like this episode enough, but it suffers from "Season 1", where the show runners have a good idea, but it doesn't quite stick. Add in some odd acting choices that could have used another take or two, make this one an "okay" episode. Blame Paul Lynch? I never really paid attention to a lot of the directors in DS9, but I'm noticing a trend on this re-watch.

Unfortunately the show doesn't really start getting on track until Ira Behr takes over as showrunner. Captain's Holiday jokes aside, this guy totally transforms the show when he takes the reins.

Early DS9 is very milk toast. The best endorsement I can give later stuff is to springboard off something you said in TNG season 3’s “Sarek”. I believe it Alex who commented how out of left field and amazing it was that Data was playing the violin to a crying Sarek. It would have been an absurd idea until you saw it. DS9 has a lot of those kinds of episodes and moments you didn’t know you wanted until they happen. They just need time to figure their shit out.

I don't know why they just don't highlander each other. Cannot die unless you take their heads

It’s typical s1 DS9 really it’s not bad just not great either. There are some definitely questionable acting choices during this one - but it’s interesting that the last time that happened we had the same director… And we get to hear the start of theBajoran death chant! I do appreciate the rather downbeat ending

Mike Ehrmentraut is from the Gamma Quadrant- that explains everything!

It might haven been a bit too far if both Chief and Bashir started talking to themselves in roundabouts. 😏

I think as you guys already suggested in the Vortex reaction, yes, the main issue with Season 1 really IS there's a lot of boring but not necessarily bad episodes in the season. There's a lot of "forgettable" but not terrible stories. I think the main issue is they haven't quite figured out what the show is about. This rewatch is reminding me there is a lot less content about certain aspects of "the lore" and the themes that later became major parts of the show in this opening season.

I do think that while I said Nana as Kira overacts here and it is unnatural, I think this is the worst it ever comes for her overacting and she can get really subtle emotional acting too and is one of my favourite actors on the show.

The Klingons wail upon the death of somebody they honor, Bajorans can too I suppose! (Sometimes the Klingon wailing make me a little uncomfortable too.)

While I do understand the overacting criticism with Kira, I also get what the episode is trying to portray. It might feel unearned since this is only Opaka's 2nd appearance, but also in Emissary Kira was convinced Bajor was on the verge of civil war. So in addition to the fact that Opaka was a big part of what kept the Bajorans going during the occupation, she's also a big part of what kept them together afterward. Kira's reverence for the character is rooted in that. Part of Kira is probably thinking that if she's dead, it's only a matter of time before it all falls apart and everything she spent her life fighting for is undone. So while it's far from the strongest moment or episode for Kira, I get what they were going for. And yes, I completely agree with the take about the Vengeance Factor biker gangs returning. They definitely have that same kind of aesthetic going on. I get being blinded by hatred and all that, but it does seem odd to me that at a certain point both sides aren't just like "look, we might hate each other, but what the fuck is this accomplishing, you take your group a few weeks in that direction, we'll go a few weeks in this direction and never have to see each other again". I like it better than Vortex, but it's only maybe a C+

Sisko "You've died before" Shel'la "Many times, too many to count. The first time was being shot by this guy named Walter. Biggest fuckin asshole you could imagine."

Nana is regularly cringe. As is Sisko and Jake.

The woman who handed Bashir his medkit was the one who was helping the terrorists steal the trilithium in Starship Mine. She caught Picard twice. (Patricia Tallman)

Nana’s “overacting” is nothing compared to Shatner’s. She’s portraying a woman who has been fighting for freedom her whole life and the one figurehead she and millions of other suffering and terrified Bajorans could look up to was Kai Opaka. You don’t have to be Bajoran to understand how powerful such a loss would be, anymore than you don’t have to be one of the 1.3 billion Catholics of the world to sympathize with the loss of a well-loved Pope. Kira is a character who is emotionally traumatized and as such her feelings are on her sleeves. Learning to control that volatility is part of the healing that Opaka is alluding to. I guess the script could’ve spelled all that out, but do we really want to hear Kira say her own version of “I have a family. Here. On the Enterprise”.

Nana can be good! But she can also be melodramatic! I think she has to grow as an actress I think she’s still pretty young first season! I wonder about Highlander! What would happen if the enemy took their heads? They had massive wins until Kira helped out..

Oh man, a rewrite with these people as displaced Bajorans would be much better. The convict angle secured in an abandoned technological prison wouldn't work, but I'm sure something else could be contrived.

Huh.

On the "cringe" kira over-acted crying, my assumption was always that the director was pushing for more rather than it being a choice Nana Visitor made (because i know for a fact she is capable of doing it right). I do defend that for most of the episode she does very well! but I also agree that the crying specifically was not great.

Already?! That was fast

Two in one day!? What is this, Christmas??

I need my DS9 reaction fix! Thanks guys!