UNCUT - Dax (DS9 S1E8) | Star Trek Journey 254

Fella's when D.C. Fontana is writing the screenplay.....it's gonna be a deep, well thought out story. Many more to come and she writes many of the fan series episodes in the 2000s. Enjoy.

I think usually protecting the innocent trumps the punishment of the guilty. If there is doubt when the punishment is death, it seems fair to not kill unless absolutely certain. If they punish Curzon Dax, they not only killing Jadzia, they are also punishing all the previous hosts by killing all their combined memories and experiences so I think they have to be much much more careful with their decisions. Let’s say that he really did kill a person, I would think the best case is to wait until Jadzia is old like Curzon and when is the time to transfer the symbiont, they just don’t do it anymore and let the symbiont die.

I’m…..*disgusted* by what I heard in this discussion. “Yeah, sure, just go ahead and MURDER AN INNOCENT GIRL because she ‘accepted the responsibility’ for something she didn’t even know about”. You cannot be fucking serious. If that’s the way you’d look at things in real life….fucking hell. Not to mention, the “I’m not on Sisko’s side here”…..I mean…then you’re just factually wrong. What he’s saying is *scientific fact*, it is absolutely proven. People in-universe, like the son, can have their own opinions, but he’s incorrect.

I'm not surprised that some people are giving you a hard time about missing things. There are people that have seen a show/movie several times who expect first time viewers to catch every little thing.

Well…….If any of us had ever wondered, here’s the answer: These two definitely have *not* seen 24. 😆

D.C. Fontana is a very talented writer. She written several Star Trek novels, some that have been considered Star Trek Cannon.

Also with the idea of a trill jumping bodies to avoid a crime...that is kinda ridiculous because that would be the death of the joined entity and the death of the host. Only the symbiote would live on but they don't think individually, the KurzonDax entity would not want to die just for Dax to get away with a murder that Kurzon was equally a part of

To me it's so obvious. Even if Dax is a hundred percent guilty, Jadzia is completely innocent. If Dax was guilty it should be punished but unfortunately that would be impossible because that would require simultaneously punishing an innocent person. The way I've always seen it, and the way I think they were going for there's almost like three different "people" inside Jadzia Dax. There's Dax the symbiote with hundreds of years of lives, Jadzia the host who's a young woman living her one and only life, and JadziaDax the new combined person that is simultaneously both of them but also really a new person altogether. This thinking also explains Sisko treating her like his old friend. The Dax part IS his old friend. JadziaDax is simultaneously a new person but also still in a significant way a continuation of Sisko's friend, just the Dax part not the Kurzon part

Anyone else have issues syncing DS9 episodes on DVD with the watch along ?

If you believe justice can only be served through punishment, and you're looking for justice, not the pleasure of revenge, there is a really simple solution for the "loophole." Wait for the current host to die and then punish the symbiote. In this case, if Curzon Dax had actually committed this crime, the solution would be to allow Jadzia Dax to live her life and once Jadzia has perished, to execute Dax. Also, regarding "who's lifting the left arm." The way I'd look at it is this: Jadzia Dax would not make the same decisions on when to lift her left arm as Dax, Jadzia, or Curzon Dax.

A bit late to the discussion as I had some episodes to catch up on. There's just one thing I wanted to add that I didn't see anyone else bring up (but, I admit, there are a lot of comments, and I only quickly skimmed, so I may have missed it). Josh's focus on the "Trill loophole" idea, that a Trill could commit a crime and "get away with it" and that being very unacceptable, and Sisko's related line "I'd prefer no crime go unpunished", were both disagreeable to me. There's a lot of discretion involved both in bringing criminal cases, and in choosing whether or how to punish them, precisely because society's interest in punishing crimes is complicated and not always clear. Sisko's comment especially was very surprising to me from a Starfleet officer who, like almost all of them onscreen, has already likely committed crimes and will likely to continue to do so, with overall impunity. Crimes ideally aren't defined so that we simply have an excuse to punish some arbitrary subset of the population. That is, ideally, we define them to influence behavior so that we can enjoy a more orderly society. There are a few major schools of thought on why we punish crimes at all: restraint or rehabilitation (to make the individual less likely to commit the crime, or less able to), deterrence (to make other people less likely to commit the same crime, for fear of the same fate), and retribution (basic "I want them to suffer because they made others, or me, suffer"), or restoration (to compensate for or repair whatever damage was done, if that's possible). Personally, I'm most sympathetic to restraint, rehabilitation, and restoration, and to deterrence to a point (it's useful, but it's also dangerous in that it can motivate people to punish people who may be innocent for the deterrence value). I generally find the idea of retribution pointless. Making people uncomfortable to teach them, sure, I get that being a part of rehabilitation. But, killing Jadzia for Curzon's crimes would, fundamentally, be pure retribution. No one would gain, except someone (the son) who wants someone else to suffer and die, which doesn't seem like the sort of attitude that it benefits society to reinforce. There's maybe small argument for deterrence, but that same deterrence could be accomplished by simply waiting until the current host dies and not granting the symbiote a new host. All symbiotes would be deterred, carrying the incentive to ensure no crime is committed by their combined selves, as they would no longer get to enjoy their apparently endless life. So, since I find retribution pointless and disagreeable, it was easy for me. I would maybe be sympathetic with Trills inheriting the debts of their predecessor hosts, and under that framework, restorative punishments might make sense, but if it's the death penalty, or prison time, you're not restoring anything. Anyway, if you've made it this far, glad you guys are enjoying the show so far! Looking forward to the next one.

I like how the DS9 crew are not the best of the best, like the TNG crew is often portrayed. These guys are flawed and its being dragged out in the open. There are lots more episodes that’ll make this clear. They feel more real. As for Trill lore, a lot more to come, including answers to some of the questions you two had. And always love the frenemy banter between Odo and Quark.

Sisko from the beginning speaks to Jadzia as his old friend not a different person. Now he argues that she is a completely different person. He contradicts himself. But right or wrong Sisko is faithful to his people. Different than the virtuous Picard. Interesting to think about but there would have to be much legal precedent about these things that they could have looked up. This one is better if you do not think too much about that and other simple thigns they could have done.

This episode always irritates me. Trill simply must have its own laws, or its own jurisprudential traditions, governing questions of culpability when it comes to the actions of previous hosts. On top of that, it is a federation world, so the crew would absolutely have easy access to that information. I understand it is a Bajoran court, so Federation / Trill law doesn't apply there, but it would have made so much sense if someone had said "Trill law says XYZ." It would at least be a consideration for the defence to bring up, and would have been a great opportunity to develop Trill lore. I also really don't think there are two legitimate sides to the argument. Jadzia Dax is clearly not guilty of the crimes of Curzon Dax. They are clearly distinct entities. If Curzon had been guilty, he would have escaped justice by dying, sure, but when the Dax symbiont was joined with Jadzia, it created a new person altogether. Punishing that new person would not be justice, it would be retribution against an innocent, who happened to possess the memories of someone who was dead.

Is it better to let a guilty person go free or lock up an innocent person to be safe? There is no doubt that Jadzia was innocent. And much doubt as to Curzon's guilt.

There should have been a scene at the end where the aliens are about to leave DS9 but Odo arrests them for espionage, assault, attempted kidnapping and criminal damage. They are also made to pay Quark compensation for lost business while using his bar as a court room.

DS9 has actually contradicted itself already with how the Trill work in this episode. It shows that they are still trying to figure out what they want to do with them in this show. In every DS9 episode up until this point, Jadzia made it clear to Julian that joined Trills don't enter relationships because they are a "weakness of the young," and joined Trill strive for a more enlightened existence. She even goes out of her way to portray an "enlightened" demeanor all the time. But in this episode, we learn that Curzon-Dax absolutely had no problem falling in love even when it was his best friend's wife. I wonder if the whole "enlightened existence" thing was what Jadzia had drilled into her as she was studying to get the symbiont, but it turns out that's not actually how it works? Of course the real answer is, the writers haven't figured it out yet.

Big smile on my face watching you guys start to understand what it means to be a Trill. You made it a fun re-watch for me. Man I love this show!

what does O'Brien have to do with station security

the writing giving these early episodes to building the crew is fantastic

That volcano-shaped coffee mug that Bashir is drinking from in the first scene was a real mid-1990s thing. It was the only drinking vessel allowed into the library when I was in grad school because it couldn’t be knocked over.

LOL, I forgot I had made that comment at the end. It was 4 weeks ago 🤣 Also, I like the part at the beginning where Bashir is being a horn-dog, but ends up (mostly) saving Jazdia. He’s not the best fighter, but he came in like a wrecking ball and tried. 💪🫡

I always felt Sisko was trying to make the best argument he could but when it came down to it, he was just stalling the extradition, hoping like hell Odo finds something he can go off of. Great ep to start getting into some Trill lore. Normally I hate retcons, but I think the changes they made to flush out the Trill worked out really well. Not sure if I was misunderstanding Alex about Jadzia and Sisko's rank, but just to clarify, let's say Curzon Dax was a Starfleet Officer. When he passed the symbiont, onto Jadzia Dax, Jadzia would have to enroll in Starfleet Academy like anyone else if she desired a career in Starfleet. Jadzia didn't just pick up where Curzon left off in Starfleet. So, Curzon was Sisko's mentor <3

I liked this episode a fair bit. It kind of feels like Star Trek JAG

This is honestly the first episode of S1 DS9 that I really love, and it's the first one of the run I had on my list of "can't wait for this reaction". I think Captive Pursuit is solid too, but I rank Dax above.

I know you guys have been waiting for an episode focused on our girl, Daxxy (i call her that because i met Terry Farrell at a few conventions, got an autographed photo taken with me standing between her and another Star Trek actress (who i also love), and spoke to her a lot on Twitter) . Basically I like her, and think of her as a friend.

So yeah there are a few things that the two of you miss or don’t understand fully, but you’ll figure it out when it matters. I’m reminded that there are things that I didn’t understand or realize until S3. It won’t take you guys that long. The patrons are pointing certain things not for tech nerd stuff but for story nerd stuff. Well, some of them anyway. As for this episode, Sisko is more correct in the way they want us to think of Trills in DS9. The suspension of disbelief is actually the pretense that is unprecedented. There should be precedent for this on the Trill home world. They have both joined and non-joined Trills. Sisko could have ended this by saying that this is how it’s handled on the home world. That’s also why they had to do this hopscotch of the crime being committed on an alien planet.

I'm sure others have pointed it out, but Curzon Dax was not in Starfleet. He was a Federation official. He worked for the government, not the military. Analogous to the real world, Curzon worked for the State Department, and Sisko and Jadzia work for the Navy.

Your first, but not last Star Trek experience with Gregory Itzin.

I like this episode a lot because both sides present valid and compelling moral and legal arguments, where at least for me, neither side feels definitely correct nor incorrect. It's more a question of which side's "wrong" you're willing to stomach more. On one hand, if a joined Trill can be held legally accountable for actions committed by the symbiont prior to the joining, well, imagine spending your life wondering if some hidden crime from decades ago might randomly show up at your door (or space station in this case) with a prison sentence or worse. Half of the new being, innocent, would suffer the consequences of the other guilty side. On the other hand, as both Josh and Ilon Tandro correctly point out, if no one can be held accountable after the joining, it opens the door to the perfect crime... So, either the innocent half suffers unjustly, or the guilty half escapes entirely... no way to construct a middle ground as the symbiont cannot be removed without killing the host. I fall into Sisko's camp of, a joined Trill is a new lifeform, both legally and morally a distinct new entity, and shouldn't be held responsible for actions taken of prior hosts before the joining. That’s what makes this episode so strong in my view, it presents two mirrored but convincing arguments and lets us sit and wallow with the ambiguity. That said, if the Trill had a system where new hosts had to sign a legal document accepting responsibility for prior crimes before joining, then sure, problem solved. But who would ever volunteer for that?

I liked this episode already 30 years ago and since I only rewatched it once or twice, it realy felt fresh, entetaining and interessting. Btw I had forgot why she was innocent and the whole Odo subplot too ;) I'm looking forward to your rewatch in 30 years and how many you'll remember, :P

I think that a lot of the stuff with how you may perceive Dax/Trills comes down to the fact that in TNG there is one set of ideas laid out about the Trill and then so far in DS9 they have been treating the Trill largely with a blank slate and not necessarily sticking to what was said in TNG while on top of that leaving a lot of questions or a lot of room for more species lore and background if they want to get into it in the future.

Whatever was said about the Trill in that episode of TNG you should ignore, specifically about the host not having control.

I'd like to point out that Starfleet officers have a reputation of good mediators. As such it's reasonable to assume they have extensive training to debate any point regardless of their own beliefs. I think Sisko was playing for time out of necessity rather than actually believing it. Riker was in a similar spot, having to argue against his beliefs in Measure of a Man. The only thing I found off putting, was that Sisko argued, that the host may have been the criminal influence, yet when he testifies, he puts him over. Kind of counterproductive for his argument. Oh and for the Trill being OP, I don't know. A human would survive a gut shot provided given immediate medical attention. If the symbiont is hit, you're done. A joined Trill is a riskier existence health-wise.

I’m not a big fan of court episodes but it was good to get a lot of back story on the Trill and Sisko when he knew Curzon.

My head canon/retcon is that Riker, being a human host with no preparation, different physiology—he just up and volunteered—failed to merge properly, and consequently was almost totally suppressed. Once they remove the symbiont, he comes back, but he does remember the experience.

If Dax had actually been guilty, I think the fairest way to handle that situation would be to forbid the Dax symbiont from taking any more new hosts. That way, the host Jadzia, who is innocent, gets to live out the term of her natural life. But the symbiont, who evidently has a much longer lifespan than the host species, gets what from its point of view is a relatively imminent death sentence.

TOS was supposed to be like a wagon train in space, and was often influenced by westerns. DS9 is also like a western, but is a frontier town instead of a wagon train (Odo is the small-town sheriff, Quark is the saloon keeper, Sisko is the mayor, etc). I think that is why TOS and DS9 might feel similar in a way that TOS and TNG didn't.

This is a pretty big departure from Picard: Sisko cares less about the truth and more about protecting his people.

This first season has very strong character development episodes for each cast member, which is an incredible lesson TNG taught this show to embark on early: lore and character growth. Sadly these are sandwiched in between some absolute groaners. I adored seeing you guys learn about the trill in their post-tng form. Agree with Josh - one of Trek's best and most interesting species.

This episode really feels like it exists only to explain Trills to the audience. The whole murder element has to have been cooked up solely as a thought experiment on how they work. But while I really like the episode, neither side ever asks Jadzia or the other Trill what I think would be the most obvious question: If this crime were comitted in Trill jurisdiction, how would Trill law handle it? Would Jadzia be held responsible for Curzon's actions if he'd broken his own people's laws? It's baffling that this was never even raised, because the answer would surely have supported one side or the other.

hey guys, how long was this episode for you? I'm trying to use some software to lengthen my video to match, so I don't have to keep pausing for you to catch up!

And the issues were never with Gene, always with Berman! (Reference: Punish Troy)

The moment when Sisco talks about Jadzia's life before symbiote implantation to Jadzia and she gets a hitch in her giddy up (she tears up and tilts her head in realization) she thanks Sico for reminding her of her accomplishments and who she was before all of this! Chef's kiss

I didn’t notice it until watching the episode with your commentary, but the Trill Witness is the one who points Dax out to Tandro in the teaser. So he was apparently lying about being sent by the Trill government to testify.

The Arbiter is one of my all-time favorite characters in all of Trek. She's 100 and doesn't have time for lengthy arguments so cut the BS and get to the point! 💜 Fun review and discussion. Thank you, gentleman ❤️ 🖖 ❤️ 💙

At this point in TNG Wesley was running on the grass. On TOS a bunch of kids were beating up Kirk, and Janice wanted him to look at her legs.

A couple things: One, I hope you don't let the gatekeeping nature of a lot of Trek fans prevent you from enjoying this journey. It's a little ridiculous for people to expect newcomers to remember every little bit of lore, and actually, you guys are remembering a lot more than I thought you would, so I give you a lot of credit. Second, this isn't really a spoiler since this episode starts the conversation, but the Trill will get a lot more fleshed out and you find out here something that you wouldn't think with the information given in "The Host": not every Trill has a symbiont. They said Jadzia had to compete and get scholarships and undergo testing. So getting joined is kinda like getting elite status in Trill society. And as someone who DOES happen to be a criminal prosecutor in real life, I have to say that the approach that Sisko takes when building his case that you initially rubbed up against is not unheard of in real life, but somewhat different. When I'm building an argument for my case, I don't start with the belief that any law or precedent that goes against my argument must be wrong. Instead, I find out what the law is, what the case precedent says, and work within the boundaries that they establish. So I'm not pushing for ignoring the law or saying it's wrong in order to win my case. I instead educate myself and see how I can fit the facts I have in order to make my argument within the bounds of settled law. And sometimes when I research I find out that I ultimately can't prove my case beyond a reasonable doubt within the boundaries of settled law. Sometimes those are the breaks for us. Anyway, sorry for the tangent, but great episode reaction and I look forward to seeing how you guys react to future species developments. Since the show is stationary, what DS9 ends up really getting good at is fleshing out the species/societies that were established in TOS/TNG, but didn't really have a chance to dive deep into because of the episodic nature of those shows.

Curzon was a Federation ambassador when he took a young Ensign Sisko under his wing. Cisko is now a commander and Jadzia is a lieutenant. The trill dont get the rank of former trill when they are joined. Starffleet is the same as the navy. You have enlisted men who have their own ranks who didnt go to the academy. The highest rank there being Chief. Then among people who went to the academy- Ensign, Lieutenant (Junior Grade), Full Lieutenant, Lieutenant Commander, Commander, Captain, Rear Admiral, Vice Admiral, Admiral, Fleet Admiral (only one of those). There is also the positon of "Commodore" which is a temporary commission giving someone control over a base or fleet. For Pike they made up the rank "Fleet Captain". Sisko as a commander outranks Dax, a lieutenant. Curzon was an ambassador, not part of starfleet. The Bajorans use military ranks. "Major" is the equivalent of "Commander" and as the first officer has the normal command position of a first officer. Odo is a Constable, which is not a military rank, but he is chief of security. Whereas in TNG and TOS, rank hierarchy was always clear, the unusual situation in DS9 does create some ambiguity. For example, O'Brien has a rank of acting lieutenant on the enterprise, but that rank was only for that assignment. On DS9, he is the chief engineer essentially, but in command of a mostly Bajoran staff and even an ensign outranks him.

While I get the criticism of Sisko basically saying "either the law goes our way or we ignore it", I do actually think Sisko had the right argument. I can see however coming off the idea of what the Trill are that was presented in The Host that it would seem to be a hollow argument, but I'd say the main point of this episode is essentially to retcon the idea that hosts are just bodies enslaved to the symbiont. The way I see it, given the host is one person, the symbiont is another, and once joined they form a new individual, it can't be as clear cut as "you remember the crimes so you must pay for them". I know of at least 2 episodes of science fiction that involve memory of a crime being implanted in someone who had nothing to do with it. Jadzia (if Curzon had even been guilty) may have remembered the crime, but it STILL happened before she was even born. If Curzon before joining was the type of person who could commit murder, and that influence on the combined Curzon Dax allowed that combined personality to commit murder as well, then is Curzon not the primary guilty party? If Dax mixed with Jadzia or any of it's other hosts wouldn't commit murder, doesn't that mean the symbiont isn't the responsible party? If the symbiont is responsible, why have these murderous tendencies not surfaced with other hosts? OTOH you could easily argue that since hypothetically both Dax and Curzon were present and both played a part in the murder, they are both responsible, but that still leaves Jadzia blameless. She may have accepted certain risks to become a host, but she had no way of knowing about a crime committed before she was even born, and executing a 28 year old for a 30 year old crime isn't justice anywhere you go. So in my opinion, even if Curzon Dax had been responsible for murder, the only way justice could be served without also punishing an innocent party is simply to make sure that whenever Jadzia dies, the symbiont is then not passed on to a new host and allowed to die. Not bad, but a little on the dull side. It has some nice moments between Sisko and Dax and Kira, and the Odo/Quark exchange, as well as Bajoran Judge Judy. That combined with the Trill lore dump buys it a C+.

I do like how they continue the "strong bajoran women" thing with the arbitrer

so this is supposed to clarify the Trill but it confuses it. They talk about Jadzia "becoming a Trill". But its also made clear being joined is an elite thing. So most of her people don't get joined. But are they still called Trill? Also, it establishes Trill as a member of the Federation. But it wasn't not long ago, and the Enterprise had no knowledge of the Trill. Not to mention there are apparently two different species that can become hosts. The plot is confusing as well. Did the rebels lose? Exactly what happened is very confusing.

My favorite part is that you are both starting to make DS9 jokes!!! I think you are hooked!

I’m not crying, you’re crying.

Pretty much feel the sole reason for this episode is to give us the background on the Trill - to flesh, and even retcon, what had been done in the Host. To that end I like it but as a vehicle for Jadzia Dax it misses the mark a bit. Love the final scene

Curzon was a federation diplomat - Jadzia is a Lt in Starfleet, and therefore Sisko's subordinate. She has the memories and experiences of all the past Dax hosts, and they contribute to who she is; but she doesn't automatically get to step back into her old job, she's a different person.

DS9 as I'm sure you've noticed by now did a fair bit of retconning of the Trill compared to their appearance on TNG. I feel like one of the main purposes of this episode was to provide an organic way of infodumping a bunch of Trill lore to ask some of these questions that fans watching would have had.

Ignoring the fact that you know everything will end well, as always, is the gift we give a series when we like it. We know that everything somehow ends (reasonably) well, but the characters within the show don't. And we go along with that. [HeartEmoji]

Sisko suspecting the law *won't* be on his side is something I appreciate on a lot of levels. But what I appreciate most is that it shows how DS9 is less interested in presenting the 24th century as a utopia. It's a utopia for *some* but not for all. And that keeps the show more grounded to the time it was written in a good way.

I never really got into this episode. I was pretty much on board with Sisko the entire time and thought the other guy's argument was weak, but then I guess I know more about Trills then they did. I was bored through most of it. It was okay, but nothing I would care to revisit. And I think Measure of Man is either the best or 2nd best episode of Star Trek TNG, so it's not that court episodes bore me.

The discussion and questions you two had at the end are exactly what I was hoping to get out of this reaction. I almost feel like the entire point of the story is just to answer a few questions the audience may have had about Trill while making us ask new ones.

I love this episode for the fact that we learn more about the Trill and the joining. One thing to note: it’s a bit of retconning “The Host”. I get that Josh doesn’t agree with Sisko, but the episode lays it out well. A symbiant (slug) is a unique person. A host is a unique person. A Trill with a host is a unique person. When the host dies and the symbiant goes to another host, then that combination is a new person. Remember: the host isn’t just a carrier of the slug. They combine to create a new person. Is it fair if the symbiant outlives the host before they can be tried for a crime? I would say no more or less fair than when someone in our society taps out before they can be brought to justice. You can’t hold Jadzia Dax accountable for what Kurzon Dax did.

This episode really starts fleshing out how the Trill species works. Also makes you wonder what Riker experienced and remembered when joined with a Trill symbiot. I try not to think about that too much. It makes my head hurt.

Wouldn't there be precedents in Trill law that they could've just looked up? The joined Trills go back at least hundreds of years. No way this hasn't come up. Ultimately, they really DON'T resolve that question, anyway. The case just falls apart because Curzon couldn't have done it.

Whoa, what a great way to start my Friday!

I don't think they get all the host / trill yet thing

Honestly, you not noting how significant/far away the Gamma Quadrant is isn't really all that fair. I think the prominence and discussion of quadrants wasn't really explored until THIS show. I think it seems more of a big deal in retrospect than it does while we were all watching Season 1 back in the day.

Dax gets much more interesting.