UNCUT - The Outcast (TNG S5E17) | Star Trek Journey 224

this shoots down anyone who cries trek is now “woke”. trek has always been progressive.

This episode has aged extremely well aside from a couple of scenes. Never particularly liked it as a child but it resonates so much more with me now.

Hmmm could the Republicans have gender trials like a new McCarthy era?

My dad is VERY conservative, but he loves Star Trek. When I bring up any of the progressive messaging in Star Trek I get from my dad a, "What? No, that's not what it's about!" Basically, there are people out there that apparently see Star Trek as just a space show LMAO!

This has long been a fan favorite. I remember in the run-up to the series finale, there was a five episode marathon that was chosen by the network, or someone. But in my area there were also fan selections added, and this was one of them (as well as Darmok). It also won a Hugo Award, one of the most prestigious Sci-Fi awards.

Josh using "they/them" pronouns for Soran was a choice lol. Did he do it intentionally??

I saw the start of this episode when it aired, but my conservative Christian parents saw the message the show was trying to portray and turned it off.

I've heard some of the cast dislikes this episode, particularly Frakes, who wanted Soren to be played by a man. But as a kid growing up in the 80's and 90's I thought t was amazing. I read it as being about homosexuality at the time, and now it reads as being about transgender issues. In either reading, I say it's a banger.

Remember folks, curing delusion is bad, actually.

"I don't wanna go full bore here..." [hard cut] Release the Josh cut, you cowards.

You just know Riker is sampling all sorts of jamaharon when on leave.

I must say though, Worf at the poker game always cracks me up WORF: The J'naii. They bother me. TROI: Why, Worf? WORF: Well, they just do. They're all alike. Just politically incorrect to the point of being a caricature😆

I had forgotten about the giant plot hole in this episode. They talk about a power source that the J'Nai have that is immune to the void (it's what's powering the life support on the trapped shuttle) but then don't bother to just fill up a shuttle with those power packs to fly in and rescue their people.

Oh damn, hit send just before you all read my patron take. Thanks, I appreciate it! Josh's rant cracked me up and he's 100% right. 🖖🏻

You guys also deserve credit for the mature way you approached the post episode conversation. Star Trek's ability to inspire these kind of conversations is what it's all about. GEORDIE BEARD

Soren's speech is written really well.

Trans activists like to point to this episode but it's actually about homosexuality. Yes, Trek has always been a liberal show, but they did it the right way. Telling a good story and not beating you over the head with propaganda like we have now. Like the new Section 31 movie. Just look at the cast photos and that tells you all you need to know about it.

The most stupid annoying thing about this episode? Beaming out from within the null space. With only 9% reserves.

Right after the monologue by Soren it goes to commercial and Paramount+ showed me an ad for a Christian dating app. No lie.

Gender ≠ Sex

As a straight, moderately conservative guy, I don't particularly connect with the gender identity aspects of the episode, but much like The Host and Half a Life, this episode does touch pretty heavily on the subject of personal freedom/bodily autonomy, which are pretty important subjects for me. Hell, I don't even think infant circumcision should be legal. If it's not strictly medically necessary it should wait till that person is an adult and can decide for themselves. I do find it rather hypocritical that the J'naii claim any species that still has separate genders to be backward(pretty much all of them), yet they essentially employ thought police. I can understand a society that has certain rules and expectations of it's citizens, certain principles that aren't up for debate. I don't really see that sexual identity or relationships are the government's business beyond it being 2 consenting adults though. In either case though, and much like Timicin's case(and as Riker brought up here), a space faring race should at the most be saying "if you don't like how we do things you're free to leave". Forcing compliance from a population is a great way to wind up with a revolution. It's the reason freedom of speech is so important, especially when people are saying horrible things. It's why so called "hate speech" laws are such a horrible idea. You don't get rid of the people who feel that way, you just push them underground. They don't want to be arrested so they won't say those things in public, but they'll say them in basements to anyone they suss out as sharing those views. It's like sweeping spilled food under a rug and leaving it for 3 months till it's a huge patch of mold. It just doesn't work. The J'naii shouldn't care whether someone feels more like a man or a woman, but if they insist they don't want "regressive" people in their society, offering them a free ride to any planet of their choosing is the best way to accomplish that. When the consequence of discovery is brainwashing, anyone like Soren is just going to get that much better at hiding. Long story short, as androgynous as they are, the J'naii are a real bag of dicks.

7:10 HE is the correct pronoun in the English language.

A good episode ahead of its time. Something to consider though is that with our outlook/cultural bias this society was wrong for their beliefs, but if Soren had been schizophrenic and was arguing that she liked the voices in her head, would we think that she would be better off without treatment? As for the "woke" debate, the biggest issue is that audiences (conservative or otherwise) want media that entertains and challenges them, not propagandizes them. Star Trek was a great example of a show that could take important topics and reframe them in an interesting light, leading to reflection and discussion. A lot of modern media is so hamfisted that you aren't being entertained and challenged, but rather patronized.

Media if defined by TV and Movies my be progrssive, if you talking News wether its by radio or television it absolutely isnt

Good Storytelling is usually as relevant today as it was 30 years ago, and sadly it is

One thing that can be missed is how they speak about gender and sex in this episode. They do not make any distinction between the two. Riker spoke about sex differences and used the words gender and sex interchangeably. That was very common and almost exclusively how gender and sex were viewed. It is a much newer understanding to split gender from sex. For most of my life gender was another word for sex in this aspect.

I'll chime in with my own, "As a Cardassian...", so, as a gay Cardassian I watched TNG in middle school and early high school, and have a pretty complicated relationship with it emotionally. In my fantasy, if Roddenberry had lived longer, it'd be a lot gayer, and we'd definitely have gotten two dudes kissing on tv far sooner than many would have been comfortable with. Instead, Rick Berman killed any mention of anything gay in the trek universe. One anecdote that stood out in my head was Patrick Stewart or Frakes wanting to have a line asking a male officer about how their husband was off handedly in a scene transition. Vetoed. And of course, Jonathan Frakes advocating for Soren to be played by a man in this episode, and Berman vetoing that because he couldn't imagine people would be comfortable with it. Pretty cool of Frakes to be up for making out with a dude on air.

This episode has aged extremely well. It was originally an allegorical look at society's attitudes towards homosexuality, made when the show wasn't allowed to address it directly. But thirty years later it has evolved into a brilliant take on the issue of transgenderism.

So, Josh. Regarding your comment @48:12., Interestingly enough, the writers wanted to cast a male in the role. And Jonathan Frakes was all for it as well. Paramount said "NO!!! Nonononono!" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I appreciate your discussion on the whole progressive issue at the end. Totally agree, 100%. Progressive is just an adjective, like conservative or liberal. Something that is progressive doesn't make it good or bad, it's just 1 descriptor.

You guys are going into deep conversation about some stuff a lot of us have dealt with. This definitely shows that the episode did it’s job. It’s not the best episode in the world, but I’ll give it props for being a good after school special.

The main message of the episode aside, I have a few observations to make about this alien race, speaking strictly about them as a fictional alien race. Mainly, their 100% cure is kind of frightening. Two ideas immediately spring to mind. 1) This species natural state really is non-binary and people like Soren actually are "sick." The cure actually cures them as the society believes. 2) The "cure" was actually how this species "evolved". What if at some point, this race developed a way to eliminate gender in the form of this "cure" and eventually everyone was forced to take it? I'm reminded of The Giver here. What if at some point the ruling body decided that this was what was best for everyone? Maybe things started voluntarily, but then was eventually forced onto the whole populace? The Borg could have started out this way too until eventually their entire population was forced to accept cybernetic implants because they were superior. People like Soren would then be people who actually remembered who they really are. The later scenario, both with the Genai and the Borg, serve as warnings for our own culture. This is what happens when the majority decides what is "best for everyone" and then forces it on everyone. Is it really best for everyone then? This is why we have variation everywhere and differing ideas.

What Trek does best. Just starts a conversation. Makes you think. BUT, Berman era TNG approached these topics gently, and with a lot of class. I am a Christian conservative. I’m proud to admit that. But I also respect how this show went about it carefully, without really taking too much of a side. EVERYONE can talk about it. Nowadays…lets just say that TV shoves the ultra leftist liberal side down your throat, and you are a bad person if you disagree. That is not Star Trek, and I find modern TV and cinema demeaning and offensive because of this. This is surprisingly a better episode than remember, and I’d love a modern show that tackles all kinds of topics in a classy, fair, and level-headed way.

Imagine trying to push that story back then that is so dependent on whatever guest star they choose. So dialog heavy on 2 characters about that subject, Riker's is from ALASKA, Riker's choice in women, and Riker's favorite position (insert rusty trombone joke).. A little more on the writer Jeri Taylor 06/30/38-10/24/24 Taylor was contracted by the executive producers of Star Trek: The Next Generation (1987). After completing her first assignment she became a permanent fixture on the show, first as staff writer and later as co-executive producer alongside Rick Berman and Michael Piller. Taylor also became involved in other aspects of production, including casting, editing and post-production. During her tenure on TNG, Taylor attempted to put a stronger focus on the two main female characters (Troi and Crusher), elevating them from what she described as 'caretaker roles'. While many of Taylor's scripts were concerned with family issues and relationships, she also worked on notably edgy episodes, like 'Night Terrors', 'Silicon Avatar' and part one of 'Unification Her episode 'The Wounded' introduced the Cardassians (make-up artist Michael Westmore had tasked her with finding a name for this race and Taylor initially came up with 'Carvillians' and 'Circassians', before tweaking the name).

As a 14 year old closeted “G” in “LGBTQIA+”when this episode originally aired, I appreciate this for even existing. I consider this episode as a “first draft” at tackling topics involving sexual and gender minorities in mainstream media. America had to start somewhere, right? I have to admit, I was holding my breath a little to see how Alex and Josh reacted to this episode. I’m glad I don’t have to regret making my TA Patreon membership as a line item in my budget. Now, let’s move on, shall we? The best is yet to come…

I somehow never noticed Geordie's beard before! Maybe it was the low quality of my copy of the episode, combined with the dark lighting of the scene.

Again, believe that this episode accidentally and retroactively fits more as a metaphor for trans people than it does for homosexuality.

Yeah, Trek has always been highly topical, and ahead of its time. I think the actors did a worthy job of it, but the sense of the level of chemistry between them that would elevate it to an "I love you!" in 42 minutes just wasn't there. Yeah, Trek has always been "woke", much as it pains me to use the term. It was an interesting juxtaposition of themes...but the execution just wasn't there IMO. The dialogue with Riker describing the concepts of gender was well put together, but also shied away from a direct, earnest declarative statement. If they want to go there...I think they should GO THERE. And boldly. But...this was also over 30 years ago...

I could give you my trans take, but as someone who writes and podcasts online what I really want to say is that "Who am I grifting from" is the realest shit you've ever said. Man, do I hate how transparent people are trying to say things online just to get clicks or patreon bucks or whatever. Be bold and say what you actually mean with your chest regardless of whether or not it gets you attention. God damn, no wonder media literacy is at an all time low. And that's *my* little soapbox rant.

Also, if y'all like "downer endings," it renews my hope for your reaction to DS9 episodes~

They tried. And it's par for the course for Star Trek. It's unfortunate, for this "analogy" to play out, they have to cast non-binary individuals as villains. Also, I think LGBT commentary in media from the 90s (and beyond) stereotypically have "downer endings" to get the message of... sadness? Tragedy across? There is no triumph, and as such there is no confidence. I suppose that there is the tragedy. I mostly like this episode for what it wants to be, but it is far from perfect.

TNG The sex scoreboard Riker is on a Bangin the bobs kick. That is bobbed hair (short hair) Riker 14 new +1 Troi 4 Dr. Bev 3 Data 2 Ro 1 Picard 1 Worf 1 Geordi 1 Broccoli 2 i Chief/Keiko 1 Extra: Chalk another score for Riker on the board. He is clearly on a bit of a short hair tear. I’ll point out the dumbest question ever asked on TNG. Soren asks Riker what kind of woman he is attracted to. The answer is of course: breathing, unless of course the species does not breath in which case non-breather works too.

Jonathan Frakes wanted a male actor to play Soran...

Thanks for reading my take It is fascinating when people try to make the case that a diverse group of space communists being accepting of other cultures hasn't always been progressive. You might even think that it's weird that a conservative would get anything out of the show. But I have heard from conservative folks that one of the bigger draws for them is "competence porn" and an emphasis on the value on merit. I can get that. But what bewilders me is that one of them could watch an episode like this, empathize with it, and then go into the real world and be a huge POS to the people who this is based on. Just saying.

I got to the patron takes too late on this... when this first came out in the 90s I was still struggling with my sexuality and I remember there were gay Star Trek fans like me that were looking for representation in this show. Up until this point, this is all we got... basically, although the heart of the producers were in the right place, there was just no representation in the show. That made this episode a disappointment and perhaps a bit of a cop-out, despite its good intentions and decent performances. Looking back on it now seems a little different, and I actually like it better for what it does present, especially in our current climate. Oh, and for the record I thought your analysis of the episode was fantastic.

What a ham handed way of tackling the subject. To have a clearly straight character, arguably the straightest character of the show, attracted to an androgynous creature... stretches credibility beyond reason. It's the old "oh I could turn him... " bullshit from the 70s and 80s. Complete nonsense. This has always been a D, for delusion. .

This is one of those episodes where you think its heart is in the right place, but the execution is lacking. Also, unfortunately the plot requires Riker to fall in love in the span of an episode, and in episodic TV, that very, very rarely works. He's required to fall for Soren, but never know WHY he would. That just doesn't make sense.

Love this episode but I'm gonna call it now, next episode is gonna be SSS

The writers actually wanted to make the androgynous society an all "male looking" society and have the "outcast" be a character with male feelings be attracted to Riker but the network refused to allow that picture so it was changed to all female looking society

I love it when Star Trek integrates social issues in society into episodes, and how they show both sides of the issue.

I always forgive this episode because for an LGBT story it was as far as they could push it in 1992. We need to remember there were 5 channels to watch back then since most didn’t have cable or satellite. Stakes were much higher and taking risks had stronger potential consequences.

Looking forward to watching after work. I'm a straight guy, so this episode always seemed well-intended but never came together in a way to make it a classic. It's like if you did the Drumhead but never got the Picard interogation/speech scene to really put a button on it.

As a Gay... yeah. Not perfect. As a 8 year old gay with no internet and no words or vocabulary to explain my feelings... "I am tired of lies..." 🙁🤔😳🥺😥...😐... Older me to my younger self: 🫂... 🖖.

Before I watch this I make a call that you two will not be fond of this one. Let's see if I am surprised.

Such a missed opportunity to have Sorin pass Lt. Barcaly in the hallway with a puzzled look.

As a transwoman, my feelings on this episode are complicated. But rather than thinking about that at the moment, I chose to focus on how amused I am that Soren has pierced ears.