UNCUT - Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country | Star Trek Journey 216

I love this movie. The best ending we could have hoped for. We would never get anything close to this today.

Star Trek Generations (7) 1994 is good. Star Trek First Contact (8) 1996 is the best.

Great film. Saw it six times in theatres....was very relevant for it's time

Worf, son of Mogh, son of Worf.

Colonel Worf is Worf's grandfather

Movie VI to me has always felt like an Epilogue to the original cast. If the six movies were books: two of the films are additional content and four of the films are the main series. Movie I is the Prologue, good film, gives a flavour of the cast & genre yet not essential for a rewatch. Movies II ~ V all happen roughly within the same year. Narratively speaking there is little gaps of time between each one. Then as I've said Movie VI is the many year afterwards Epilogue that you can miss if you want.

I think the hype for this film was driven by the fact that Nicholas Meyer directed it, that last Captain's Log scene, and the signatures coming across the screen, kicking into the emotions because it really does say, "We're done. This is the end." I do love the crew shot, if nothing else - Sulu's customary chair is not just empty, but torn. Great symbolism for his absence. Beyond that, it's watchable and enjoyable, but nowhere near the level of Wrath of Khan. When it came out many of us fans called it "Star Trek VI: The Apology", because they HAD to do one more after the disaster of Star Trek V. It also suffered from the budget cuts that every movie after TMP suffered, and the sense that things were visually vaguely familiar, but wrong (because they reused TNG sets for almost every shot off the bridge). And there were things that we wouldn't expect our characters to do. From the ridiculous "we have to use books because the translator would be recognised" when Uhura - the most talented communications and linguistics officer in Starfleet - was RIGHT there to that forced mind meld between Spock and Valeris. According to lore, that mind meld was - to a Vulcan - akin to rape. Spock wouldn't ever have done that. And the film was peppered with other moments like that. Scotty's "I bet that Klingon bitch killed her father", and to the general racism amongst the crew. None of it felt like OUR crew, who always found a way to rise above bigotry. Tidbits: I had a copy of the original script and, while most of it was essentially the same, it would have made matters even worse, as the character of Valeris was, in that script, Saavik. I'm glad they made THAT change, but I already knew what was coming before the film debuted, so at least I was prepared for the disappointment. Christian Slater got the part of the Lieutenant talking to Sulu because he was a massive Star Trek fan and begged for any role they'd give him.

I have always disliked this movie. Never understood why people like it so much. Hell, I liked 5 more than this one.

I grew up watching this one on VHS and it always catches me out that the reveal of the Klingon at the end being Colonel West (“this is not Klingon blood…”) was a cut scene in most releases (it was very much there on the British VHS) - you can even see the blood is red after he falls out the window.

This is my favorite original cast movie by a country mile. I'm a xennial - in my formative years when the Berlin Wall fell, and when this movie came out. A lot of Star Trek is about social commentary, but this is probably the one piece of Star Trek media that most resonated with world events that I was aware of and invested in at the time. It's really well-done and well-timed in that regard. That plus: 1. An engaging murder mystery 2. A couple Kirk/alien fights 3. Some cool scifi tech stuff expanding on existing Trek tech 4. Great acting performances by both main cast and new characters 5. A space battle with both personal and galactic stakes that is won through brains instead of firepower 6. It finally ties us in to where TNG starts with the Klingons 7. Worf's grandpa Worf defends Kirk and McCoy What more could you want from the final TOS movie? I also don't really get all the eye-rolling at the Shakespeare quotes. Christopher Plummer rocks, Shakespeare rocks, it's thematically appropriate, what's the damn problem? Probably my only big gripe is Uhura not being able to speak Klingon. They gave the finger to her entire decades-long career as a communications officer for the sake of a joke that didn't even make sense (why would they need paper books? And why can they not use the translator just on their end to understand before replying?)

It is essentially the bridge movie as to how the Klingon Empire and Starfleet eventually become allies and find peace as the Organians predicted. This movie is the reason Worf can serve on the Enterprise D at all. And how the TNG era begins with Picard the warhorses of the previous 23rd century have to change and adapt and eventually die out. Camp Khitomer is the same name given to the Khitomer outpost Worf's parents were killed at. So it seem only appropriate that Worf's ancestor would be the defense counsel for Kirk and McCoy.

I loved the scene where Spock and Kirk talk about getting old. It perfectly sums up the Star Trek films. It feels like watching your Mom and Dad aging, with all the good and bad that comes along with it. It's a different kind of Star Trek.

i agreee the whole prison sequence sucked and the movie would have been better off if it was just deleted

Anyone ever notice the severe lack of establishing shots in this movie? It’s very noticable in the second act. We see the Enterprise after the dining scene and we don’t see it again until they are warping to Rura Penthe. There’s not a single establishing shot of a ship or planet in that time frame, when the movie is bouncing all over the place (Enterprise, Kronos One, Earth, Kronos for the trial, Excelsior, Rura Penthe). It’s a definite sign that this movie was made on a very tight budget, and most of the model work is saved for the third act of the film.

The YouTube comments are gonna be a bloodbath

I remember having the same reaction as Josh when I first saw it in the early 90s. I didn’t hate it but I was definitely disappointed. Over the years, I’ve only come to like it less and less and I’m more where Alex is now. It’s actually my least favourite of the first six movies. It does have some nice moments though. Sulu as captain is great, the scene with Kirk and Spock in Spock’s quarters is lovely, the visual effects are great, and I love the score.

I saw this in the theater (as I did ever Trek film) and what I really loved was how Shatner played Kirk like I felt he did in TOS. It wasn't the more subdued lighthearted older guy. As soon as I heard him snap at Spock with, "DON'T believe them! DON'T trust them" I remember thinking YES Kirk is back. I've seen this one several times and enjoyed it yet again watching it just now. I even have my LaserDisc cover of this framed and mounted in my living room.

I hope your business model includes that you've already experienced peak Trek. While each series has its amazing episodes, overall its all downhill from here.

The Klingon lawyer defending Kirk and McCoy in the Klingon trial was Michael Dorn (Worf), his character Colonel Worf was the grandfather of Worf from Star Trek The Next generation

There's more TOS media! There are a number of audiobook productions about Sulu as captain of the Excelsior, read by Takei himself. If you want to see (hear) more of him, I'd start with 'Envoy.' There are also plenty of TOS audiobooks with the original cast reading, so, there's still some media out there.

Question. I noticed at one point the spoken Klingon wasn't sub-titled in the symc clip whereas mine was? Was all the Klingon translated for you, or not?

430 comments! Wow! 😲😲😲

I'm not sure I'm going to watch the reaction. After seeing the movie for the first time a couple weeks ago and not being really impressed and then reading through some of the comments I can't really work up any enthusiasm for it.

Y'all started a damn civil war in these comments! ST VI is fine...same realm for me as 1 and 5. This is coming from a 20 year old fan that started out with TNG. So, like you guys, I didn't have the historical context behind it when it was released. Glad you guys got some enjoyment out of it and sticking to your guns when it comes to opinions against the grain. This was hyped up way too much though. This amount of hype undoubtedly will lead to some disappointment, just some food for thought to all of you guys screaming about how much they will love X and Y, but hate Z.

Something that I never picked up on until years later: Spock mind-melding with an unwilling Valeris would have been taboo in Vulcan society; akin to mental rape

You know, I had this rated pretty high on the list of Star Trek movies, but I also hadn't watched it in a long time. After sitting and watching through it again now, I think I'm with Alex on this one. Beyond some nice character moments, this is really not a very good movie.

Fun fact was valeris actress posed nude on the bridge and got caught

Enough already all of you whiners! Put a sock in it! Does it really need to be said that diversity of opinion is a natural part of the human condition? You just set yourself up for disappointment with the unrealistic expectation that others should match your likes and dislikes. Is there anything more subjective in the world, on the like/dislike curve, than movies and TV programs? Revel in and enjoy your own preferences and gracefully allow others their opinions. As Paul Harvey put it so succinctly, "It's not one world".

One thing I think I understand, it's not that political or military thrillers inherently bore Josh and Alex, it's more about knowing the characters. If they're well-developed over a long period of time, I think you'll both be hooked. Doesn't lend itself well to a movie setting.

I originally saw this at the cinema. I had the same response as Alex but my buddy loved it. Over the years I grew to appreciate it more. However watching it with you guys tonight is the first time I've seen it in over 10 years and I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would. For me - It feels very subdued and quite pedestrian. While this is clearly a better made film than V ... But I have rewatched V far more times then I've rewatched this. I gave this a B+ in my Patron Take... But I'd actually drop that down to a C now I know people love this movie but it really doesn't do it for me.

Chang/christopher plummer was a fellow Canadian and had performed on stage with Shatner way back in the day Iman/marta was a supermodel. It was a BIG deal that she was in this movie at the time. Christian slater was amazing seeing a big star in a cameo Admiral cartwright will be in later trek as a different character. He was also the admiral in star trek 4

I'm guessing that a lot of the issues Alex had came down to this being the last TOS movie. I can see how this might feel underwhelming as a finale. As much as I like the movie in and of itself, it does sort of feel like "Well that mission is over. OK, goodbye forever". If there had been a more fun/epic finale after this, I wonder if that would have made the difference. At the very least, I think we needed a longer third act, and we needed more time for the characters to actually say goodbye.

Welp. At least there's proof positive for what the boys being disinterested in something looks like, and it is NOT chatting and riffing. It's dead fucking silence.

Well, you gave it a fair shot. I guess I figured it wouldn't pique your interest after the Red October incident but I'm sad that prediction came true. Still, I could tell you enjoyed a lot of it, there weren't many iconic moments that simply fell flat for you guys, so I'm glad it wasn't a slog like Red October was. I'll admit the writing has its weak points, but the rest of the movie really makes up for it. In their final mission, the crew explored a strange new world, almost too strange for them to accept, and I think it's an excellent send-off.

I think they missed the Sherlock Holmes reference:)

Now I watched the full movie with you guys. First, it seemed for the first hour you both liked it. The second hour Alex was hell bent on not liking it. That has to impact anyone sitting a foot away. I'm honestly not sure what you found lacking in this story, and I don't get the critique of you needed bigger considering you watch TNG, where except for YE and BoBW, stakes do not exist. This movie seemed like a perfect send off to TOS, you got Kirk and McCoy, just as it began, you got Kirk kissing the girl and two fistfights, you got to say hi one last time to Sarek and Janice, Scotty got to carry on a little, You also love Klingons and here they are in all their glory, and not written cartoonishly too going on about honor every 12 seconds. I just will never understand how this story is lacking, but if the story had been people going into a holodeck to live out this exact story but fake, it somehow becomes great. I would suggest Josh watch this again alone, and Alex revisit this in a year.

I see this movie as it could be, and I remember it as it should be. Which is why it's great and I love it.

Spock: Logic? Logic...logic is the beginning of wisdom, Valeris, not the end. This will be my final voyage on board this vessel as a member of her crew. Nature abhors a vacuum; I intend you to replace me. Valeris: I could only succeed you, sir. Context is what drives this film, a 110 minute appeal to plenism; the idea that nature abhors a vacuum. Twenty five years earlier a disillusioned military vet, Roddenberry, pitched a script or three at a certain set of studios about a version of humanity which strives for a better tomorrow and a better version of itself; something different from the all-consuming reality of the cold war. The work of the allies in WWII and every conflict since had essentially been for naught -- children running nuclear drills under their desks, young adults being flung into Korea and Vietnam, and the ever present threat of the commies. And then it just...ended with the collapse of the Soviet bloc, forty five years of butting heads with them. Not with a bang but a whimper. That whole thing. But then there's also the context of the aforementioned history entangled with the passing of the torch to the next generation. TOS was cancelled, no amount of letter writing or advert campaigns or loud voices on talk shows would change that. Years after cancellation a token gesture was given to the fans after the studio saw the initial impact of Star Trek focused panels at conventions in the form of the animated series. That in turn fuels fan response at cons, and more fans are found in syndication, and so on and so forth until it comes to a head in the form of The Motion Picture/Next Phase/whatever you'd like to call it. Roddenberry had failed pilot after failed pilot in the 70s as well, and the cast had largely been suffering from typecasting and the unwillingness of anyone to touch such well known actors who would only invite more "where's Trek" questions. They paid their dues for over a decade and TMP was meant to be a love letter to them and the fans and usher in the new era. It failed at the box office and even some fans didn't care for the effects-centric nature of the film. Syndication numbers, conventions, and the fan movement was certainly there as a financial force but at a lesser budget level if they want to see returns. And so 2-6 were all, relative to TMP and even later TNG, more conservatively funded. They paid their dues and were rewarded by being second fiddle to other properties and, again, TNG just a few years later -- JV being called up so you can ride the pine after you put in the legwork. Now it's '91, TNG is the new hotness that has filled the vacuum on television and this is the end for the original cast. They walked so we could run, etc, and VI was like reading I, Jedi just before The Phantom Menace hits theaters. You have to understand that the way things were passed on from person to person, generation to generation back then was purely through direct interaction and word of mouth or through chance encounters in syndication and MAYBE through home video/rentals if you could find it at your local shop. Not even webrings or proper newsgroups existed yet, it was either someone yelled at you about it or someone told you about a number to dial into for a BBS. People may even prefer TNG at this point, but they understand the context, the lineage of the original series, and the finality of this. A send off, the payoff to 25 years of the progenitors being the backbone of something you truly love -- and the grace of the cast to step aside for their shoes to be filled fully. They play and you absorb their performance. Something, something the omega to TMP's alpha or whatever. The two of you, and others like you, are watching from a culturally sterile space. You may revere the characters and the franchise like those who lived the context, and you may feel a certain imperative or tone being thrust upon you by those who are watching this through you vicariously like we were originally or blah, blah, blah. You had to be there, as it were, to experience that cultural momentum and you weren't...and that's just fine and completely understandable that this didn't hold up on its own two feet for two people who weren't steeped in the history or classics that they incessantly quoted. There's no such thing as a true fan, a trekkie or trekker or whatever the fuck else. You, me, anyone else -- we watch Star Trek and even enjoy it once in awhile. Simple as. Sorry for the shitpost that ran a little long.

While I do understand the whole, only other named character is obviously the bad guy. I feel like if it wasn't a named character you would have equally argued that the betrayal was not meaningful enough as the character is a nobody. That being said, its one of the few I've owned since VHS, and I just realized Lt. Valeris reaction when the shoe does not fit and the fact the 2 dead assassinators where the 2 guys in the transporter room.

The simple truth is the movies try to make it star trek epic . when in fact the stories and the characters we love , we don't need epic battles between good and evil

There were a lot of story bits that were left on the cutting room floor (such as the aforementioned one about Valeris not being full Vulcan). The Federation President is blind which is why Kirk has to identify himself when he knocks him down and the Klingon assassin at the end has red blood. I've not seen it so I have no idea how much the Director's cut adds to the film.

You know that feeling when you're a kid, and you show a new friend something you like a lot, and they don't like that thing? That's sort of how I feel right now. This was one I was looking forward to you two reacting to back when I was watching your TOS content. I enjoy your stance on being honest in your reactions, but I'm still really bummed out that you guys didn't like this one.

We have very different opinions on these movies, and that’s ok. My rankings are 2, 6, 4, 3, 1, 5.

Christopher Plummer was Chang. Gorkin was played by David Warner who played the human ambassador in the previous film.

I knew the lieutenant was a villain right away from the side burns.

All those kids who keep posting stuff like "can't wait for you to watch ST6" and "the next episode will blow your mind!" - This one is on you.

The movie never was one of my favorites either. I have liked it better upon repeated viewings, but I think upon seeing it in the theater for the first time I was very underwhelmed, and even slightly bored by the political aspect of it. I definitely understand this reaction.

You are both great reactors. I could see the instant Alex disengaged- the whole feeling of the reaction changed. It’s like the atmosphere in the room was different. Then I could tell by Josh’s ‘pleasant smile’ face that he wasn’t thrilled. Not a criticism of y’all, it’s actually what makes you both entertaining to watch. I’ve seen other comments that echo my sentiment that this film changes depending on how old you are when you watch it. Definitely not perfect but prescient, as Trek always is. One generation has to make the choice to stop the hate., to break the cycle of bigotry. This is why Kirk and crew are our heroes. There are a lot of ways I wish the film were different but I’m thankful we got to say goodbye to them, one final time. Star Trek has been my therapy since I was a child. It’s important for kids (and adults) to see embracing differences and service to others demonstrated, now more than ever. It’s a future worth making for ourselves. 🖖

Are you not entertained?

The second act was mostly filler that bogged down what could have been a one hour episode. As others have said, there is too much direct political allegory of the time. Kronos being Chernobyl, quotes form Desert Storm (extended cut). Tackling the fall of the Soviet Union, and bridging TOS with TNG made a lot of the plot forced. The budget was low and the TNG sets were noticeable. Still, the third act definitely raises this above 5. The first 4 movies did set a high bar.

Very interesting reaction video, guys. It basically sums up what I’ve been saying about Star Trek VI for years. I love this movie. Absolutely love it! But it hasn’t aged well. It’s far too militaristic and is centered around a premise that was meant to mirror what was happening at the time. The Soviet Union, which Reagan used to call “the evil empire”, was on the verge of collapse. For us Gen X’ers, we lived in fear throughout the ‘80’s that we could be nuked at any time…would this be the last Christmas we would ever see, etc.…and now we were watching the Cold War coming to an end. This movie couldn’t have chosen a more perfect allegory to reflect the end of the Cold War in space between the Federation and Klingons. But now, those events are thirty-five years behind us, and the film itself feels dated. I’m not saying that younger generations won’t get the importance of the story…but it was quite something to watch it on the big screen in 1991 and then go home and turn on the news to watch it happening in reality. Really appreciate your honest reactions, guys. You’ve helped to keep TOS on the radar and have added to the fandom! 🖖

I will say because Star Trek V failed, they wouldn’t give this film a penny more than that budget. If they gave it just $10 million more, they could have increased the scope I think. And I always wondered why Nick Meyer didn’t bring back Gayne Rescher from Star Trek II as DOP. That film was the most cinematic of all of them. They did the best with what they had. This is a great film. Alex, always defended your guys right to have your opinions, even if you disagree with us. But from a comment you made about halfway through, it seems you DECIDED not to like it. You looked like you were tired. Hey, its got its flaws. I know. But as a sendoff? It was great.

This movie almost didn't happen. Paramount was in a bad financial situation due to a string of very expensive films flopping at the box office. The next Star Trek movie at this point was going to be about a young Kirk & Spock at Starfleet Academy very similar to the 2009 reboot film. Without having to pay Shatner and Nimoy and cast some young unknowns they figured they could make a movie for a much lower budget and then set themselves with a whole new franchise. This Starfleet Academy film was actually greenlit and in preproduction but when the owner of Paramount found out about this reboot movie, he was furious and cancelled it and demanded one more movie with the TOS crew in honor of the 25th anniversary of Star Trek. Harve Bennet who had produced II, III, IV, and V was going to produce and had written the script for the Starfleet Academy film left Paramount not wanting to do another TOS film. Paramount turned to Nimoy to take over, he brought Nicholas Meyer into write and direct. Nimoy, Meyer and Denny Martin Flinn wrote this movie, the two other people credited contributed nothing to the final story but were under contact and still received credit. This film was rushed to get it into theaters by the end of 1991 and Paramount was very very tight with the budget. Most of the sets are TNG sets, the room they had the dinner in is the room where Picard has staff meetings, the movie really blew it up and a new set for TNG was constructed. 10 forward was the Federation president's office. Sickbay, engineering and the transporter room are TNG sets with minimal redressing. So yeah, this definitely was not the epic goodbye these entertainment legends deserved and feels cheap at times. Still in 1991 I drove my beater of a car 45 miles in a snowstorm to see this movie on opening night and I was soo damn happy seeing my old friends together one last time and I do have a special place in my heart for this film. BTW the Klingons quoting Shakespeare and acting like Shakespeare was Klingon is a reference to Nazi Germany claiming Shakespeare was German and using Shakespeare for Nazi propaganda and I agree they over did the Shakespeare quotes.

I honestly don't see any racism in this. Considering up to this point the Klingons they've met have been 100% nogoodniks, why would they think anything other than Klingons are all up to no good?

Man, from these comments you'd think they both declared this the worst piece of media ever produced.

This is my favorite of the movies I saw 2-6 in the theater and people clapped at the end for a time. It's a great star trek movie and brings back memories from this time. I completely understand your disappointment. But I think people hype stuff up too much.

I have peaked and troughed on this movie over the years. Loved it as a kid, don’t think it aged very well. I still think it’s a solid 7 but I don’t like the way the crew comes across as racist bigoted arseholes. Gene Roddenberry didnt like it and neither do I. I know it’s there to give Kirk the turn at the end but it is played far too strong.

I'm not sure what the deal is but what you guys are watching is totally out of synch with my DVD copy

Honestly, I’m right with you guys on this film except I’m positive I like it better than Star Trek V. Second from the bottom for me.

Fun fact: They used Worf action figures in the top row of the courtroom to force perspective. Also: Christian Slater's (the guy who wakes up Sulu) mother was the casting director. He asked her for a small part.

Yeah I figured they might not like it. My personal ranking would be 2,1,3,4,6,5. I really like them all, and this is better than 5 with a great performance by chang. But I did feel, and I guess Roddenberry did too that it was a bit too militaristic for Trek. Plus since there are starfleet baddies that instantly means Alex will hate it

Between this, BSG reboot and The Hunt for Red October it seems (but may be inaccurate to say) that you guys are less inclined to like political thrillers, which happen to be something I enjoy a ton. ST6 specifically is very rooted to its day as a Soviet collapse allegory, but despite that I feel it holds up rather well. I do think some of the things you pointed out about the conspiracy members being obvious and the penal colony prison scenes zapping some energy from the film are absolutely valid. Love how honest your reactions always are, so keep up the great work.

I can never predict what they like or not like, lol. Bit disappointing to be honest, but I'd rather not have them fake enthusiasm like some (probably) do.

Now I'm not so sure how much I'm looking forward to the DS9 reactions. 😔

Josh, what do you mean by "big"? Like Dune big or ....?

There are dissenting opinions and then there are factors that can mar an enjoyable experence for someone that watches something 35 years after it's fresh. Alex does have a penchant for not being fully present in narratives and does seem to be a external processor and slave to expectations; so it can't be surprising that this old film wouldn't hold his interest. I do worry that this will get worse as the Trek journey continues. I mean a lot of us Trek fans have kind of the same experience with Nu Trek after 2016 and don't instantly LOVE what's produced. We end up being called "toxic" fans. I personally dont think there are a lot of toxic Trek fans. Just passionate fans. And Alex is one. Those expectations can be killer though and can ruin an experience. Hard to go in neutral. My experience with VI was when I was 22 and saw it in DC with my then gf and it was fucking amazing. Nothing can change that for me. ;)

This has never been my favorite, but I knew they wouldn't like it lol.

Speaking of expectations, I was more excited for this reaction than possibly anything else you're going to watch in the entire franchise. So in a way, I feel your pain! (And to be fair, unlike you guys I have no one to blame but myself for getting hyped up about this.)

Everything about the prison was filler. It really hurts the movie by killing momentum for a couple hit or miss jokes about Kirk hooking up with alien babes. I also find it hilarious that in such a meeting of the most powerful elements of two star empires, there's absolutely zero ships in orbit of any kind. That said, I do like the third act for the most part, and overall it was better imo than part 5.

I think Season 4 TNG spoiled you guys. So far in Season 5 and this you are both like Meh or hate. I get it hard to love this when you have seen the best. I also understand the wanting more with your characters. Cant wait to see you guys react to the rest of Trek. Are you planning on going all the way through the new stuff like Strange new Worlds and Lower decks ?

shatner was 34-35 when he first got Star Trek. Nearly that same amount of time has past since this last TOS movie was made. crazy

Watching you fall in love with my show, the respect that you have for it, the observations and commentary. This is why you guys are the best. Thank you for keeping it real! Trek is different at different times in your life. Some episodes and movies I didn't like as a kid I like now, and the opposite.. By the time you get to the end of your Trek run, it will be time to start it all over again. You will have grown older and wiser and will look at a lot of episodes differently than the first run through.. Target Audience II - The Wrath of Alex Alex-yes-I did send you a poem written by DeForest Kelley with his signature in the back of it..pretty rare, very cool..(c:

Alex "There's no room for bigotry on the bridge, keep it to your quarters" They're in the transporter room. Bigotry is allowed there. Just ask O'Brien

As someone who saw this in theatres on initial release at age 11, this will still be my favorite with TWOK being a close second. The biggest reason is that aside from TMP, this is the only movie that showcases one of the Refit Enterprises with full crew compliment and fully operational. In TWOK, the Enterprise is full of cadets as it has been relegated to a training ship. In TSFS, she is battle damaged, bypassed like a christmas tree, and run by a small bridge crew. We get a glimpse of a fully staffed & operational A at the end of TVH, but in TFF all we get is a skeleton crew and a ship that is still in shakedown trials. In TMP, we have those gawd awful pyjama uniforms and the ship is just out of spacedock after a full refit with a crew who barely knows here. This movie here, the ship is well broken in, new bridge module, full crew, and fully lived in. The galley scenes with scuffed up walls and panels just makes it feel alive, and a galley crew preparing crew meals is business as usual. The story is just deeply immersed in the daily operations of a top of the line Starfleet Flagship.

As I said before, there is very consistent potential for predictions on what the guys like or don't based on the inverse what the fans like or don't. Josh and Alex will consistently like obscure filler episodes that the fans are at best ambivalent about, and they will be disappointed by the stuff the fans are passionate about. This has very much been proven out by the TOS films and continues to carry in TNG...Darmok of course being a key example. I predict they aren't going to like DS9 much at all, at least not the central arc of it. Stuff will be going down in DS9 and the fans will be all, "Yeah! This is the good stuff!" and the guys will be like, "Meh." Which is fine. Dissenting views are also interesting.

I'm sure you know this by now, but Worf (in this movie) is Worf's grandfather. Mogh's father.

The two assassins were the same two crewmen that Valeris seemingly chastised in the transporter room. Turned out she wasn’t chastising them but rather ordering them to get to their task of assassinating Gorkon.

I was a kid still when this came out. based on the title I had built up somehow in my head that the crew were going to find some place or whole planet that had never been encountered before & it would be some huge mystery they had uncobvered. When Gorkon referred to the future as The Undiscovered Country, the whole thing just fell flat to me & I think I was like Alex, I checked out that early & it became "just another adventure" to me & I felt so disappointed watching it. years later in my 20's when I got a PS2 & started getting DVD's this movie had fairly recently been released & was among the 1st Trek Physical media I collected. This time around I saw the story for what it was, rather then what fantasy story I built up in my head & I loved it. I love the idea that some Humans, Klingongs & Romulans were so against peace, the worked together in cooperation to try to insure they never had to cooperate again. Brock Peters & Nichelle Nichols hated the idea of saying anything racist given what they experienced in their life, but I think it was great. Yes humans are no longer racist to each other, but in the end they're still human & sadly it's in our nature to distrust the unknown & different, so those attitudes may still exist in the future, they just transfer to a new target. I think it worked here especially when the end was the characters becoming self aware of their attitude & that they were wrong.

I guess in hindsight this is not surprising. It is fascinating though, as Spock would say, that two people simultaneously reach similar opinions that go against the consensus so often. I do all the time on certain boring decaf Trek shows, but that doesn't mean my friends think the same thing. My best guess is one of you is picking up the tension vibes off the other, impacting how they see the stuff.

There is Josh and Alex stranded in the mirror universe who love the even numbered TOS movies …

In defense of Alex and Josh, I'm a baby boomer who watched TOS when it aired, understood every historical reference in the movie and also checked out early. I'm not sure it being a "commentary on current events" is enough to make this a good movie. At least it wasn't enough for me.

Michael Dorn was playing Worf’s grandfather.

It wrapped up much quicker than I remembered, the ending was rushed - I've never noticed that before. Damn you guys, you make me re-evaluate everything. It should never have been hyped, I watched this over Christmas on TV as a kid and came to my own conclusions. Hype discolours everything, hopefully you will appreciate it more in retrospect.

As others have commented with the cold war anology and the Nixon to China comment some things with this film won't connect with a younger audience. But that aside I still think there's much to enjoy here, particularity Christopher Plummer's acting and role. Low points for me as some of the schlockeir elements with Uhura not knowing Klingon and the general unsophisticated ways of the crew around Klingon customs and norms. Just too simplistic and childish. As a send off to the crew, it works mostly. Better than V but not the rest of the movies.

Fun Fact: The signatures at the end of the film inspired Marvel to do the same thing at the end of End Game.

"I've been dead before". Cold, accurate, but hopeful.

Interesting, i am surprised you didn't both love it more. I did notice about midway through Alex didn't seem to be loving it.

All I heard was Bonnie Raitt's "I can't make you love me" in my head the whole time watching these fells be disappointed with a movie I absolutely adore. And that's ok. Different strokes for different folks.

I was wondering how you'd react when you saw Michael Dorn's name is the credits. It wasn't quite what I expected still like it though. From what I heard this was Worf's grand father. On another note please try to watch the directors cut. However, don't do it until you have at least seen the fist season of Deep Space Nine.

to be fair about the "Wrath of Kahn" hype that Alex likes to reference, regardless of how you guys felt about it - it is universally considered the best TOS Star Trek movie and by a significant margin. it's not baseless hype from a movie that no one has seen before (see: Will Smith Suicide Squad before it came out). the hype is earned and proven over the last 40+ years.

I have watched Star Trek since the 70’s and saw this in the cinema when it came out. It was a fun movie but that is all, too many goofy moments for me. I think many Trek fans can’t see past their love of Star Trek when rating things like this.

Nichelle Nichols was angry about the Klingons translation scene. She felt Uhura would definitely be able to speak Klingon, the writers and director disagreed.

I'm pretty sure its the same effect I had. As a kid/teen i thought this was great. As an adult I kinda think its one of the weaker movies.

I will agree that it really dragged in that escape scene. Sadly feels like filler. But I did generally like this movie.

Amazed you didn’t love this

Fun fact the Targ was played by the same Chimp as Muffit

Senator Pardek from 'Unification' is not in the movie, but he was added to the novelization as an aide to Ambassador Nanclus. (He is not yet a Senator at this point in the timeline.)

I’ve always enjoyed this movie, not a huge fan of the Rura Penthe stuff tho. My fave movie is still to come.

I'm surprised Josh didn't like it, not because of expectations or that I like it, but because his face the whole way through seemed to say, "I like it." I was thinking I would split screen Darmok and this and pretend the two of you like everything. :)

Valares role was supposed to be Savik, making the betrayal hit a little harder, but the actress didnt want to come back so they created a new character.

Half Impulse inside Spacedock… there's a video on YouTube showing how INSANE that command is! It's ¼ the speed of light.

A good sign, as to Alex & Josh's age, and when this was written, when Spock quoted the ancient Vulcan proverb, "only Nixon could go to China", Alex and Josh clearly didn't get it. When I was twenty, and saw this in the theaters, all the older adults laughed.

While I disagree with your view on the movie, I absolutely respect that you are willing to stand by it, no matter how unpopular you know it will be. Straight shooters.

Hmph... well, that was disappointing, but not at all surprising in the end. But I did hypothesize that if someone would end up not caring much for the movie that it'd be the other way around. I understand Wrath of Khan - It's much older and the film style was a bit... , nvm, no need to rehash. But this movie??? Let me guess, their next movie that they have a low opinion on will be First Contact and their ultimate favorite will be either Insurrection or Nemesis. 😅

While I respect your opinion on this movie, just as Josh mentioned, it was very obvious and unfortunate that Alex just checked out halfway through the movie. I've noticed a similar pattern in some of your TNG reactions, where you don't take it scene by scene, instead some character or whatever irks you in one scene, and from that point on your opinion on them is set. Detracts from my viewing pleasure to be honest.

I also want to give a shout out to Kim Cattrall's performance as Valeris in the scene where Spock mind melds with her to extract as much information as possible. I thought that was intense and well done.

The movie hit my generation more because of the Berlin Wall coming down and the fall of the Soviet Union which is what Leonard Nimoy was going for in writing it. So the movie is cemented in a certain point in history.

Fascinating reaction. I hope you do revisit this another time, no disrespect, but it definitely felt like quite a few things / themes went over your heads and I agree with Josh that Alex in particular seemed to have disengaged early on. A shame but if you’d been told this was a brilliant film I’d understand, it’s not the best film you’ll ever see, but it is a worthy and appropriate send off for the original crew especially in the context of following on from Star Trek V.

I agree that it's nice that you are not afraid to have unpopular opinions. As long as you appreciate the TOS series+film material, it's ok by me if you have your own preferences lol. I love this movie and don't mind its corniness and references. As a kid, it was very easy watching and warmed my heart to see how the adventures ended for this incredible team. I like that everyone in the cast got a chance to shine. Much as I love some of the other TOS films, some are so tightly focused on Kirk, Spock, and McCoy that you don't get much from the rest of the cast.

This one benefits from a rewatch and I personally think the "special edition" reinserts things that really help flesh it out. But you said you're not interested in revisiting it (though Josh said he might before the discussion so who knows), so I guess it'll just remain in the realm of meh for you guys.

Well, if Alex feels like we made Star Trek 6 out to be the 'second coming of Christ', I can only imagine what we've done to his expectations for Deep Space 9. I hope he tries not to hold that against the show when they get there. Especially the earlier stuff. I'd really like to believe they'll both like DS9 a lot overall, but then again days like today are a reminder that you never can tell when they're going to shut down on an episode or movie, so.... fingers crossed, I guess....

I just want to say - I really appreciate the fact you guys are not afraid to go against the general consensus. This is probably overall the favourite movie amongst fans and it’s nice to see an honest reaction whether it’s good or bad (or mid). This and number 8 are my favourites, I’d love to see a running tier list for the movies!

The great parts of this movie are Chang and, to a lesser extent, the mystery behind the assassination. But the Rura Penthe stuff in the middle drags it down. I really like this movie overall, but it's definitely a mixed bag.

I’m very surprised, and disappointed, that you were both that negative about the movie. I didn’t expect total love for it, but not this level of criticism. I think comparing what we all said about building it up it to the “second coming of Christ” is a huge overstatement and I know for me, not appreciated. Yes, the movie has flaws, they all do. But, this movie was released at the end of 1991 when the Soviet Union (Russia) was falling apart, countries under its control were becoming independent, and the Cold War (which many of us grew up during) was ending. This movie is a commentary on that and has to be looked at in that light. I know those who are younger than Gen X, like both of you, won’t appreciate the context as much or perhaps not at all, but even with that I still think you were too critical and negative about the movie.

5 is a bad movie with many good moments. 6 is a good movie with several bad moments. I have more fun watching 5 than 6.

Michael Dorn is playing Worf's grandfather, according to him during an interview right before this came out. They should have explained that, but obviously missed.

🖖❤️

So it's always stood out as sign of the quality of this script that they screwed up their "Chekov's Gun" of the gaseous anomaly scanning. The Excelsior was doing the scanning mission in the beginning, not the Enterprise. Shatner and Plummer had done Shakespeare stage acting together years earlier. The story goes that Plummer improvised some Shakespeare line when they were filming the end of the film (which they did first) and I believe Meyer loved it so much they rewrote the whole script to add all the quotes and such and the "Original Shakespeare" line. It can be funny if you know the references etc, but really it's kind of an early example of the dangers of too many call backs in modern media. You are limiting your potential audience to people to get the references, and that's not a great long term strategy.

Finally one of the moments I've been waiting for, y'all watching my favorite Trek movie! Wish I didn't have to work so I could watch this already! Not skipping to the end so hope you enjoyed it!

At a Star Trek convention in Tucson in early 1991, William Shatner was the main guest. He relayed a story about when filming the Rura Penthe scenes with DeForest Kelley, Shatner played a trick on him. Each time De went to toast a bagel at craft services, Shatner would come along after a distraction and remove the bagel, causing DeForest to become worried he was losing his memory (or mind). When Kelley found out what was happening, he yelled like hell at Shatner.

I can't tell you why, due to spoilers, but judging from one of your reactions, you guys have GOT TO watch the original RoboCop.

I'm surprised you didn't recognize David Warner as Chancellor Gorkon. He played the Federation Representative on Nimbus 3, in Star Trek 5.

Bones and Kirk get sentenced to Hoth, aka Rura Penthe.

Data’s grandpa also made an appearance, was hoping you’d recognize him and give us an “Oh my GOD, it’s APOLLO!” type of pop. ;)

It's Worf's grandfather. His father's name was Mogh. He's always called Worf, son of Mogh.

The Worf in this film is TNG's grandfather for whom our familiar Worf was named.

The fake Kirk didn’t have leg chains on, so it was easy for the warden to know who to shoot.

Thank God! Finally... some Star Trek "noobs" that don't think Star Trek 6 is the best thing ever. I don't hate it, I do like it, but it is so not the best and Gene Roddenberry was right to not like it! An observation I have made about the movies... depending when you became a Star Trek fan seems to dictate how much you like 6. People that started with TNG generally seem to like 6 the most. Those of us that started with TOS do not seem to regard it as the best.

I have not gotten to watch the reaction yet as I am at a guy dog school training for taking home a new guy dog it consumes all of my days. When I get back to the dorm tonight, I’m gonna watch this. However, it sounds like your opinion blew up this page like the Klingon moon of Praxis

The gulag planet is definitely a pacing problem. I’ve fast forwarded through it on more than one rewatch. Aggressive editing and yet another spectacular score help set an exciting pace outside that middle stretch. It ties for 2nd place with II & III for me. All three are pretty solid despite their issues. A-. (ST IV will always be the GOAT for me.)

Having watched you guys react to it, knowing that you prefer TOS out of all the Star Trek you've watched so far, I realise that its one of my favourites because its the most TNG of the original cast movies. The political cold war esque plot, the character moments. A build up to the action rather than being led by it.

Another “head scratcher” of a reaction. This is one of the best Trek movies - of any generation - ever made. I agree with some of the comments that bring up the fact that if you don’t know much about The Cold War or didn’t live through it that this film might not have the same impact but there is so much more here. Sometimes I just don’t get these guys.

LOL. People do overrate this one. It's a perfectly good film but not quite in the same league as II, III and IV. The racism is a bit "eek" now too, and overall it looks a bit cheap, re-using far too many of the TNG sets in a barely concealed way, and with limited location work etc.

Damn, I just got to work....I can't wait to get home.

Just brainstorming for earlier snowy environments in Star Trek, I’m coming up with All Our Yesterdays and Star Trek III (“Snow, in the same sector!”).

I wish I could remember my first reaction to this movie. But then again, I can't remember much from my early 20s... My personal ranking from best to worst would be 6, 4, 2, 1, 3, 5.

Wow guys... Ah... I really think like 80% of the movie went right through you. Worf. Worf, In this case; the lawyer, is the father of Mogh, Worf from TNG's dad. AKA Worf's grandpa. AKA Mogh, named Worf, after his own father. Which tells us a little something about Mogh. Kurtwood Smith plays the Federation President. His race is called "Efrosian." We see one of them in Star Trek IV. "Oh the only other named character is the bad guy." Yeah... That's literally every episode of TOS and TNG that features a plot involving personal antagonism. The guest characters are usually "the badguys." "Kirk fights a blue thing." Kirk fighting an alien is right out of TOS. Kirk fights aliens. The whole script is literally a send up to Star Trek. What the Hell? "Oh the guy they had tension with was in on it." You've watched this much Star Trek at this point and that is somehow.. bad? Guys, that's every time there's a badguy on screen. What the actual Hel!? LOL. Also the implication there is you would have been happier to see one of our guys be the turncoat. Would it have been better if Chekov or Sulu were the badguy? Their last voyage together, and we lose one of them to a plot twist? No! Incidentally, Valeris was supposed to be Saavik, but Kirstie didn't want to do it, Robin Curtis was never asked, Gene Roddenberry objected. He objected to just about all of the bigoted overtones, missing the part that it was setup for the foil that was the ending. Even the best of us can get stuck in our ways and preconceived notions. To deny that is to deny human nature, and you do that at your own peril. Yeah, this is a personal story, about Kirk overcoming his pain from the events of Star Trek 3, and the crew saying goodbye. It's not a universe ending "endgame." Everybody got a moment to shine, and everyone said goodbye. Also, given the budgetary issues, they really worked hard to make this, arguably, the best looking of the six Trek films. Hiro Norita's cinematography blows everything after TMP out of the water. I will say the only thing that I think has aged poorly is how overtly the Chernobyl analogue was trowled on. Down to the "Gorkon" "Gorbachev" name similarity. It's a little too on the nose. it's not bad, per se. I just wish it wasn't layered on so thick. I'm really shocked. I was expecting Alex would enjoy this for its murder mystery/who done it plot. We get a lot of Kirk and Bones, (just as with the first episode of TOS, and we get some good jabs, some subtle, between Spock and McCoy. I'll be interested to see if your thoughts have shifted at all when it comes to the discussion video, and to hear your more nuanced takes at that point.

The Federation President is an Efrosian. There was another Efrosian on the bridge of the U.S.S. Saratoga at the beginning of Star Trek IV.

This is when Kirk’s middle name of Tiberius is established.

Colonel Worf is the father of Mogh and Lt. Worf’s grandfather.

It’s Worfs grandfather. Valaris was supposed to be Saavik.This movie is my favorite of the bunch.

The Klingon who gets his arm shot off (played by Brett Porter) is from where I live, Murray, KY.

The Klingon’s blood had to be shown as purple, instead of looking like human blood, to avoid the film receiving an “R” rating.

(Mental note: Always lower Josh and Alex's expectations.) Hey guys, DS9 sucks.

Unfortunately, I predict some butthurt in the comments, but my favourite is Star Trek III and they loved that, so I'm happy haha

I think part of the reason Valeris is obvious is because she was a new character. Originally it was intended to be Saavik, which would have landed harder since she was present at David's death. Also, the Klingon who attempted to assassinate Red Forman was actually human. I love this movie but I'm not upset by the criticism because it's valid in some instances.

1:05 'Who is this guy'?' That would be Christian Slater.

It's a shame for TA that plans were abandoned for Star Trek VII: The Bonding

TOS Sex Scoreboard Tried to find a Kirk - Marta hula-hoopin' moment off screen but no. Kirk 12 Chekov 4 Spock 5 Bones 4 Scottie 2 Uhura 1 No changes in the TOS bangin board shockingly. We hoped Kirk would go out with a womping or maybe a Scotty-Uhura hook up or maybe even poor Sulu finally getting a little sump-in-sumpin. But no. There we have it. The final Board of the whole TOS crew.

I give you guys all the credit in the world. You like what you like, and are fair about expressing yourselves. I love this movie for many reasons, but I am also in my 50s and therefore come at it from a different perspective. Your honesty is essential for me to watch you react, and you should never fear saying how you feel. I know from watching you react to this that when you love something, you mean it. That's what being a critic is all about and what makes you guys essential viewing.

It's his grampa I think.

Well, that’s my evening sorted!

When they both disliked Red October, I figured it would be the same for this movie. Without the context of being alive or even studying the cold war which is played as an allagory of the Klingons Vs The Federation, a lot of the movie loses its "umph".

Kirk's "cowboy diplomacy"

Do I wait for the weekend and keep my job, or watch today and jeopardize it????

The replies later will be exciting :)

I was just about to go to bed.... Oh well who needs sleep. 😁

Damn, I just got to work.

I have plans today so I'll have to get to this one this evening, but excited to watch!

I've been waiting for this one, just beats Wrath of Khan as my favourite TOS movie. Interesting reaction to real world politics and Star Trek's first political thriller, can't wait to see what you make of it.

RIP sulu's lovely cup of tea

I knew there was a SEXY reason I took today off. Sorry, Canadian here, ... everything we do is sexy. That is why Commander RIZZ Riker is Canuck, and like Alex and Josh, Sexy is just a state of being.

AT LAST!