UNCUT - Redemption II (TNG S5E1) | Star Trek Journey 208
UNCUT reactions are now on YouTube also - YOUTUBE LINK
Comments (111)
I agree with your S grades.
I just rejoined. Why haven't u watched Undiscovered Country yet?? Also why was the timer on during the whole show.
Star Trek VI is after TNG S5E9. As far as the timer, you are watching the full uncut version which requires syncing your own copy. The edited version of this reaction has been posted as well - https://www.patreon.com/posts/edited-ii-tng-117736334
I really dislike the very end when Worf is just allowed back after quitting. I get that it's because of the episodic nature of TNG, but it's an example of there being no consequences for the Enterprise crew. In some ways, I wish this were a modern show where things can change more. For me, this stops this being a top tier episode.
Agreed. Doesn’t bother me as much as what you’re describing but it is like “oh ok”
Data's ability to manifest emotions in his role as Captain goes back to the episode "The Defector." Remember the holodeck opening scene where he is playing a king passing as a commoner? Picard watches him emulate the emotions of the role and tells him he is doing really well with the part. So on the Sutherland, Data realizes he has to play the part of a captain, and draws from his theatre experience to play a convincing role. Fully established character moment for Data, and bravo to the writers and directing.
I would be very curious how many people have had their views dramatically change from when they first saw these episodes. I mean outside of the episodes I watched when I was a very, very young child when TOS aired, and then its first entry into Syndication in 72 (so 2 to 7 years of age). Very few of my opinions have dramatically changed over the ongoing decades. Though in comparison to your experience, where you're watching multiple episodes a week, with only a short break between seasons. I watched live, rewatched multiple times each week before the next episode. And for a season finale that means I would have rewatched that episode a lot before the continuation. So details would be very fresh in my mind.
Really shocked that you liked this one so much. For myself it's B+ t o A- range. Simply put this episode feels rushed. The Sela story had no impact on me, in felt like a typical cheap stunt that would be done on the night time soaps (or daytime ones) of the 80's like Dynasty, Dallas, Knots Landing or Falcon Crest (and that is absolutely not a compliment). And while we don't know the development of Vulcans or Romulans (ie how fast they mature, we just know they have a long life span), It seems exceptionally unlikely that she would be at 23 given the command of not only a warbird but command of a fleet of them. Compare that to the growth rate of Worf's kid. At least with Klingons at this point we have no knowledge of their life cycle or life span, so it makes it easier to swallow. And in fact having a race that develops quickly makes sense on a evolutionary scale to work with a society that seems to have a very high death rate (you guys even comment about how many people should be dying all the time in this culture). The opening scene (in ship) is very well done, the scene on the Klingon Homeworld with the Klingons of both sides interacting, was really nice to see , and of course the closing. I also really enjoyed the data subplot, but I honestly think including that and the Sela story really didn't help the episode flow. And the idea that Worf resigned from Starfleet and Picard just lets him come back. Is how shall we put it, utter rubbish. It completely invalidates Picard's view in the first part. Something that Picard was quite firm about. He wasn't given leave. Or detached duty. He formerly resigned from Starfleet. It's not as utterly stupid as Picard giving Worf a reprimand for his desertion, and Capital Murder but it is still just ridiculous. It's really a story for all its parts that needs more episodes to tell in a fleshed out manner. This spread over three. Giving proper pacing and flow to each of the three elements of this story would greatly improve it.
Definitely agree the whole thing feels like a season long arc rushed into 2 episodes
Every time you say "Shooter McGavin", I hear "You eat pieces of shit for breakfast?" in Sandler's voice.
I like the Sela subplot on it's own. I think the issue mostly comes down to it's lack of effect on the rest of the episode. Picard's plans aren't affected by her presence. He even says as much. She doesn't have any interactions with any other crew members. The scene where Worf doesn't react to seeing her on screen was never discussed. It felt like she was there purely as a Yesterday's Enterprise callback. To be fair I really enjoyed that. I think maybe Sela should have had her own focused episode prior to Redemption. Everything else was great, particularly the continued exploration of Klingon culture. Also I can't hear Data yell "Do it!" without thinking of Palpatine.
Who ever wrote data has been in starfleet for 26 years made a huge mess of his backstory. How the hell didn't data once hear "early bird gets the worm" or "needle in a haystack" in 26 years around humans? 🤦
I always felt this way about him. I'm glad I'm not the only one. It's like they decided him to start him from zero in Season 1, when he'd been in Starfleet (and thus, interacting with humans and other life forms) for over 20 years at that point. But he didn't understand basic colloquialisms or common expressions. (I also have difficulty believing the bit about how he can't understand humor. Creating jokes is pretty hard, but it's not difficult to understand what makes a good joke funny, even if only an intellectual level.)
Now you can see that there are some sets of episodes that are as good as movies.
Which makes it even more embarrassing when the movies have bad plots.
denise crosby as 23- well, she IS half romulans, romulans are a vulcan offshoot and vulcans live much longer, so maybe romulans look a little older at a younger age as well?
Wouldn’t a longer lifespan mean they would age slower and she would look much younger than 23?
the plane of the galaxy is mostly two dimensional thugh theres obviously a third dimension. Warp engines arent just normal propulsion, they warp space. The Galaxy also warps space, going above the plane of the galaxy would make the ships incrediby slow by trek standards because normally they are adding curvature to the space that is already curved by the galaxy's mass, outside of that gravitational fields the engines have to do all the work, so going "above" the net would take way too long.
I figured going around the net would take a week and the supplies would be too late 🤷♂️
Picard didn't send Yar to the Enterprise C...SHE REQUESTED IT. ;)
well, it's sela's version of the story, although I guess Guinan said it as well. yes, it was Yar's choice, but ultimately Picard had to give the official order.
I do stand by my feeling that the Captain Data subplot feels shoehorned into this story. Would preferred to see that as a separate episode altogether and focus more on the Klingon civil war or Sela.
Episodes like this are why it's so hard for the rest of us to rate episodes objectively - it's hard to dissociate a stand-alone episode from the full arcs and followups that are to come. Yesterday's Enterprise wasn't just a neat one off, and Redemption pt 1 is prologue to so much more.
yeah, as a kid I started watching in season 7 and watched the rest from my friends tapes, so ive never actually watched in season by season format which is partially why this channel is so interesting, but I also feel it changes my perspective a bit, as these guys are slightly influenced by the evolution of the story and characters in a different way. Thats why i wished they would have watched TOS in prudction order because it makes more "sense", things like the vulcan mind meld being explained when it's first introduced and the general evolution of the characters, the broadcast order wasn't a "plan" of the creators, it was just relatively arbitrary. But as far as the way I watch it now, I definitely have in my mind a "canon" universe so that I fit in future things when watching an episode, like how as we get more revelations it broadens the picture of what happened before, and in my head I'm imagining this as a real universe, so those future revelations are "true" and understanding the episodes and characters in that light as like, historical events, does change the way I interpret the episodes.
OK, I love this episode, but here's why it isn't an S for me: the Sela plot doesn't really end up having any effect on the A-story. I mean, I like Sela, and I like that there's now a villain out there with a personal tie to the Enterprise. But if I'm evaluating just THIS episode, I have to ask how anything would have turned out differently if that had just been Tomalak, or some other Romulan commander. I'm not sure how I'd "fix" this, but I would have preferred if the fact that she was Yar's daughter had some effect on the climax or on the decisions the main characters made.
I think getting to see the scenes of Sela’s reveal to Picard and his conversation with Guinan are great parts of the episode
Never caught that before: There is a USS Tiananmen in the fleet. The infamous massacre on Tiananmen Square in Bejing which crushed the Chinese movement for democracy happened only two years before the airing of this episode.
I love the music during the blockade scenes. Very “naval.”
Life makes sense again
Great episode and even better reaction love that you guys feel the emotions too
the only reason they gave Riker the captain job on another ship was so that data could also get a ship to command .. would have been weird to keep Riker on the Enterprise and send data to his own ship.
Season 5 is full steam ahead! Hopefully we get to see more of Selma and Go-Ron.
Have always loved the portrayal of Movar in these two episodes. Played by Nicholas Kepros, a very accomplished veteran actor. Something about his performance here is compelling.
I know this wouldn't work for the story. But after Worf told Gowron that he was giving what's his name his life back, Gowron should have been "you have been forgiven for your families crime against the house of Mogh...but you still committed treason against the empire" and it cuts out with Gowron flashing his crazy eyes as he shanks the kid.
Agree. It would have been more consistent with past Klingon behavior for Gowron to kill Duras Jr.
Josh, to answer your question directed to me in the Patron takes (without going into any spoilers): As a quick forward, I want to say that this is an A+ episode to me, regardless of my thoughts of Sela. My personal issue is that this episode is very strong, and stands on it's own with everything going on with Worf, the Klingon Civil War, and the Federation trying to undermine the Romulans' plans. The head Romulan could have been any decent actor in my eyes and accomplished the same goal as Crosby. Yesterday's Enterprise is my personal favourite TNG episode. Alternate timeline Tasha asking Picard go back with the Ent-C, allowing her to have a better death, is (maybe ironically) a redemption for her character and the way she was handled in Season 1. Yar being captured, seemingly raped by her captors, and then being executed for trying to escape with her child seems to be a bit of disservice to her character considering she joined Starfleet to escape the rape gangs on her home planet. It ruins the bittersweet ending of YE slightly for me. In my opinion, there were a bunch of other ways they could have brought back Denise Crosby.
Well, you have to remember.. Nah, good thoughts. I don’t disagree. Appreciate the response 👍🏻
It's still interesting to watch someone who is watching this show completely un-spoiled. All of us original viewers had the episode teasers spoiling things. Makes me kind of jealous thinking of something somewhere in this season that wasn't a complete surprise to us old timers, but will be to you. Stay tuned!
I honestly don't remember seeing the spoilers. 🤔
I love when Seela is just like - yeah, I'm going to torture him for information, then you can have him back your Klingon onlyfans channel
S1-4 title sequences "Alright Five, you just settle down. We know it's the 25th anniversary but that's no reason to be a show off" I'm torn on whether this is an S or A. Like others have said, I don't want to oversaturate the ratings with S tiers. Should be 25-30 max for the show. My criteria is if the episode is series defining and sticks with you for decades. Though I get that's hard to judge on first watch. Still it is an excellent episode. I really like Data's story here. EVERYONE seems to underestimate him. Picard has to be asked to give him a command, Hobson straight up questions his competence, and even Sela seemed to think he would be an easy target to slip by. And of course he proves them all wrong and ends up soloing the whole problem and derailing the Romulan plans. But yes it's a common criticism that space is too big and 3 dimensional for that sensor net to work, but it can be overlooked. I would say this is the point at which Worf finally starts to follow his own path. Growing up he idolized Klingon culture, or what he thought Klingon culture was, and built his whole personality around it. Then he faces discommendation to cover up a traitor's crimes, and then has to watch his lover die to protect the same lie. At that point he probably held out hope that Gowron would root out the corruption and restore the empire to what he thought it was. But then he gets to see Klingons at war first hand. Whether it's Gowron duelling his own allies, Kurn fraternizing with the enemy, or the Duras family conspiring with the Romulans, I think Worf saw that none of them really care about the empire at all. It's all just a big game to them, whether they're chasing power, political gain, or personal glory, none of them see the big picture. I think that last scene(and the senseless duel he tried to stop) showed Worf that Klingon "honor" is just a senseless, arbitrary set of rules and customs that he has no desire to emulate. Worf realized in this episode that what he always though honor was, that being a code of personal conduct and responsibility(first alluded to in Heart of Glory, and perhaps subconsciously drawing on some human influence), really doesn't mean much to most Klingons. Worf sparing Toral, and actively defending him from Kurn, was a rejection of the corrupted ideals he sees in practically every Klingon he meets. From here on out Worf lives his life the way he thinks a Klingon should, not the way they actually do, and he won't compromise his ideals to try and fit in any more. For that reason it's one of my favourite endings in a Worf centric episode. Also Goss just can't win. First nobody will get him a chair, and now Kurn is shouting at him.
I think it is also of the case for those of us who have seen all the show, we grade on a curve. We know there are exceptional episodes, we rate those, and then grade down. Not knowing means that is hard to do, as you don't know if the next episode is another "Measure of a Man" or a "A Matter of Honour". And yeah, SF debris does a good review on Worf and his interpretation of honour, I would check it out if you haven't seen it.
I really like the black chairs ❤️. Great reaction and discussion. To my memory, it was Alex that guessed Sela's story.
oh my god that ending reaction was already the #1 audience moment of the season 5. just call it now,.
huge pop for ending on the scene lol
25:19 I love how she just lies right to Picard's face, typical Romulan.
This may be the first time we actually see a non-human in command of a Starfleet ship, but we know it's happened before. In "The Immunity Syndrome" the Intrepid had an all-Vulcan crew.
Back in Conspiracy we saw a bolian captain
You may need a new rating category for the next episode... S won't be enough.
slight Spoiler: "Arnock, on the night of his joining" as a rating?
10:58 Crazy and in opposition to continuity.
I was watching TNG as it aired and this episode blew me away when I first watched it. Call back and tie-ins like this are common place now, but back then it was super rare. Especially call backs this complex.
Yup call back things are too common now
So, you're not sure if you like this one?
Awesome that you spotted the change to the main title sequence this season… the title card font trailing off, sort of like the Superman movie credits.
this is off topic but i think i missed an announcement something about Ben Hur reaction video but never saw what was said. it seems to be gone now. does anyone know what it was about?
Ben-Hur edited reaction had a small delay, will be up soon. The UNCUT reaction is still up. The announcement was in the general chat.
Like I said previously, I think part 2 is stronger in a lot of ways. The Worf and Data stuff just draws the heat. The next episode is one i'm really looking forward to!
Such a sophisticated episode. How the heck did they pack all of that in ac45 minute episode when the whole thing actually felt like 2 hours. Crazy. Ron Moore “gets” Trek. Too bad they didn’t hire him to do Trek now instead of the garbage they put out today. I think season 4 is better than this one.
The S vs A thing again comes down to how many you feel you can vote as a ‘favorite’ . In terms of script and directing I have no faults with this episode. It just doesn’t reach me the way some others do. I can’t say more than 20 across all of TNG are my ‘favorite’ without making the word meaningless
Agreed. We can all agree "Measure of a Man" or "Yesterdays Enterprise" are both high A episodes, but it is up to a personal preference if they move to S. I think "The Defector" and "The Wounded" are S episodes, but I could honestly see it rated as a B by some people if the premise doesn't speak to them.
When her movie career didn't take off, Denise wanted to come back to TNG. Rick Berman and Ron Moore came up with the character of "Sela" to bring her back aboard.
Loving the new set, and this is one of the best reactions yet. I can't wait for S5. IMO it's banger after banger for much of the season.
Of course, the two best characters are the non-humans, Data and Worf. It gives the writers the opportunity to make them interesting and different.
It gives them the opportunity to explore the World from a different perspective, this type of character, the one with an outsider perspective have always been a part of Trek, and when done well, are popular characters.
Now we need something for Sunday. That will be S5E2, right?
HELL NAH
Imagine being Picard in the scene with Guinan. From his perspective NOTHING Guinan said made sense. That had to have bothered him in the back of his mind for a long time.
When Kurn was flying the Enterprise he never did that Sun maneuver.
You guys are gonna love DS9 when you get to it, and I can't wait.
Gonna say it again. You guys are going to fucking love DS9, based on what we've learned about you guys from your reactions.
Ron Moore reaches his peak form in DS9.
Lt. Cmdr Hobson did nothing wrong.
Agreed. I think we may see some more of that from other Star Fleet officers in which on the surface they appear to be "the heavy", but in fact it's just their way rubbing up against 1 of our main cast members.
Love the new trek computer overlay. Moving on up, boys!
imagine a episode where you have a enemy ship and every alien on the ship is played by Denise crosby
Never a fan of Sela. Just take her reveal in Redemption I "humans have a habit of showing up when you least expect it". Har har I see what you did there Sela. Those kinds of easy grabs pale in comparison to the real drama of Data on the Sutherland, and Worf in battle during the civil war, and Picard convincing the Federation to blockade the Romulans then figuring out a way to make it work, and Gowron's eyes, and so on ...
Not just the best opening but one of the best closings too!
Sela maybe being Tasha's daughter was your prediction, Alex.
finally the enterprise is not the only ship in the sector, i was starting to think starfleet had only 1 ship a sector
I can't really argue against anyone saying season 5 is the best, but I'd say seasons 4 and 5 are pretty much neck-and-neck.
I think 3 to 6 is Trek at its best there are so many fantastic episodes across that span 3/4 is probably my fave but 5/6 are so so good.
Always loved the fact that Sela’s backstory was largely from Denise Crosby so she could come back.
Did Worf have a black eye in that final scene? Maybe it was the lighting but it looked like his left eye was swollen and bruised just a bit. If so, that is a great attention to detail.
Yes, that eye had taken some damage
This is your best reaction to date bar none! The humor was great and no crazy banter! Plus, the new lounge chairs and since I just got a new beautiful leather one sitting in it watching!
Already? I am positively surprised.
David Carson directed *The Enemy *Yesterday's Enterprise *Redemption 2 Up to this point in the franchise. I think you guys gave S's to all of these episodes
Love the new set, especially the chairs. And having the uncut reaction have all the fancy stuff like the TNG border was great. The show stepped it up and so did you guys apparently.
Thanks, still not perfected!
Here's the thing about star trek, Sometimes one off episodes aren't so one off. I don't mean to suggest that it's suddenly not going to be episodic, but Sometimes call backs from previous episodes pop up in unexpected places.
There are only two things I dislike about this episode: 1 = Lursa and B'Etor are perhaps my least favorite Klingon characters EVER. Just find them so cartoonish and one-dimensional. 2= The character of Hobson just was way overdone-- again, one-dimensional. He was too much of a dick too fast. I realize that one of the pitfalls of placing a guest character in a single episode is that you need to establish the character's personality and set up the conflict with a minimum of screen time/dialogue/etc. A little more subtlety would have played nicely. CONTRAST this character with Stiles in "Balance of Terror." Stiles was not openly insubordinate or even dick-ish from the start; he was just kind of snarky and as the plot developed, that snark blossomed into anti-Vulcan bigotry. There was a line of slow burn there. Hobson, though, was just an insubordinate dick to Data from the get-go. From that over-the-top start, there was just no place to go. Very poorly written character and I don't think it was the performance; the actor just did what he could with what he got, which was a one dimensional device to "test" Data's command and leadership abilities. Everything else = S tier, including... LOVE Denise Crosby's performance in a completely different role than Tasha. She's the most romulan Romulan ever in TREK, as far as I'm concerned. LOVE Gowron. If Lursa and B'Etor are my least favorite Klingons, Gowron is my (next to Worf) favorite. ANY episode with Gowron is automatically at least B tier to me, through ALL iterations of TREK. Love Data stretching with a captaincy and handling First Officer Too Much Of A Dick. Love the scene with Guinan, and in this case how Picard's trust in her is, unlike before, not entirely total. Funny how, in YESTERDAY'S ENTERPRISE, it was his implicit trust in her that returned the Enterprise to its timeline and created the current timeline with Commander Sela, YET he will not display that same trust and go with her totally on this and believe that he is responsible for this and that Sela really IS Tasha's daughter. And what a twist: he doesn't believe Guinan, and doesn't believe IT at all until a ROMULAN, of all people, lays it out for him. And even then, I don't think he's bought in. So... all pluses and minuses considered, I rank it A+++. As close to S as I can get without it being an S.
Everyone loves Gowron, he is such a great character. The Eyes and the Teeth, just make such a great character, and Robert O'Reily seems to have fun playing him, which comes through in his character.
So... I had to stop the discussion for a second here. They are twisting the truth a bit with "Picard sent her." The reality of that situation was that she basically beat him into submission to ALLOW her to go. The TRUTH? Guinan is primarily responsible for putting those ideas in her head, then Shooter McGavin for being his irresistible self, then Tasha herself for wanting to go and then, finally, Picard for giving in and letting her go.
Great news, getting closer to DS9 and Voyager. Can't wait until you will cross TNG & DS9 the same week 😛🖖
What a reaction! I love their pure joy at the end. It’s contagious.
For sure that's the ultimate "End on the scene" so far.
Welcome to my favorite season.
I envy you for scenes you will get to experience for the first time the next few seasons. At least I can join in the ride!
On the topic of Data in command: On the one hand, he seems very capable, and he proved himself in this episode, and I loved it. On the other hand, it was like two episodes ago he literally turned his head away from Guinan for misunderstanding the meaning of the phrase 'Don't look at me like that' LOL so..... maybe some wiggle room for legit concerns of him being a full time captain until he finishes ironing out those kinds of wrinkles?
TNG The sex scoreboard the TA voiced and Tasha score is removed. Riker 10 Troi 3 Dr. Bev 3 Data 2 Picard 1 Worf 1 Geordi 1 Broccoli 2 i Chief/Keiko 1 Hon board Tasha 4 no new Extras. Worf almost got a score with the hot sister (yeah that is relative but still). Could it have been a DATA – Tosha2 artificial interlude? Did she get wired not boned? He may be programmed in multiple technics but any of them Romulian? Well they did not have a chance off screen so we cannot give credit. One last thought. I wonder if we should give Riker 1 or 2 scores. You KNOW he pulled with a whole new crew to choose from
I... Disagree with Tasha being put on this scoreboard for this. It's very unlikely it was a pleasant experience for her
Dude, thanks for putting that on YouTube. I usually watch the episode on my TV with your reaction on my tablet, and the Patreon app is buggy as shit at times. This'll be much easier
"Silence the child, or send him away!" - Josh, every time there's a child guest actor.
i say the same when Wesley on screen
Holy shit! This is why I don't look at schedules - so I can get that "Christmas morning" feeling with a midday surprise like this. S5 HERE WE FUCKING GO.
I literally squealed with joy when I saw the upload. This is one of my favorite episodes.
You didn’t warn me to clear out my afternoon and get some booze ready. Gotta replan a bit now! 😀
Oh wasn’t expecting this, looking forward to what you think of the Data plot. My fave part of this one
Looking forward to shouting "SHOOT HIM" at that scene :D
Oh shit, yeah guys let's go!