UNCUT - The Loss (TNG S4E10) | Star Trek Journey 191

Here's a reflection question... was it better than "The Child," which was also a Troi-centric episode?

This episode can be pretty annoying with Troi’s response, except understood with Crusher’s line later in the episode that (as I remember it from a viewing month ago): “Doctors or Therapists make the worst patients…”

I gave it a C. A very predictable outcome.

There's a part of me that wants to defend the B plot (in this episode and also just B plots in general). At the end of the day, even with all the character moments, the sci-fi stuff is still part of what defines the show. I would describe it like this, the sci-fi is why the show exists, the characters are why we care. I get wanting just the A plot, but this is still Star Trek. On the other hand the B plot in this episode is kinda meh. The 2D stuff is mildly interesting, but it feels underdeveloped, and it also feels like it doesn't mesh well with the A plot. In the end I wouldn't not have a B plot. I would just prefer one that feels more relevant to Troi.

He doesn't say "I'm sorry" he says "imzadi" which means beloved in betazed.

My white noise movie was Star Wars: A New Hope. The music was great & I loved the story, but passed out every time I watched it. I could never make it passed the opening sequence after R2 & 3P0 escape. I blame it on the blue milk.

Typical bottle episode. 1 cheap guest star, little effects, planets or anything flashy.

My mother recently lost her eyesight and the Troi plot has hit differently now for me, so many similar scenarios. Re-watching this series has reinforced yet again how great the writing in the show was at times.

One thing that always bugged me about this is the whole sensor thing. So... if something was say above the ship.. they would have no idea it's there? The sensors of a star ship in the 24th Century are not omnidirectional?

generally speaking if ones loses a sense like sight early, their other senses do fucntion better because areas of the brain that would process visual input are used for other forms of sensory inpute. Of course we can't relate that to betazoid telepathy

I'd probably rate this one a D like Josh, but I'm less impressed with the Troi plotline, and less bothered by the 2D alien plotline(or the poor execution thereof). I get that it's not as simple as saying "we've all had to live without empathic abilities our whole lives and we get by", and yeah if I lost an ability I had come to rely on so heavily I'd probably be pissed too and lash out at people trying to help me and then feel like a dick later. But I guess what my problem boils down to is that Troi's abilities have been utilized so poorly that they seem borderline useless. I no way is it as crippling as being deaf or blind, or losing your ability to feel through touch. Yes it impacts her job, and learning to rely on observation and intuition like human therapists do would take years, but it's not like she can't do everyday things like walking or having a conversation without help. With how obvious her observations tend to be, it's almost like someone had thermal vision or something and lost it. Sure it's cool, and useful in some circumstances, but if something is too hot to touch, usually there's enough heat coming off it to feel, especially if it's hot enough to really burn you, and again, if it's cold enough, the frost is gonna give it away. So it just didn't sell me on this being crippling because of how poorly the show has used her powers. I liked the Guinan scene, I agree they should have had a conversation between her and Geordi, and the 2D aliens were a cool concept. This one just isn't for me. Oh and BTW, Riker said "Imzadi", which is the Betazoid word for........

Speaking of the most Toys did you guys watch the alternate takes of the original actor for Kivas Fajo? You guys should do a reaction to the two takes on the character and make it a patreon exclusive..

First off, I understand why the B plot may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I thought the 2D aliens and cosmic string were cool, and I really appreciate how it tied back to Deanna at the end where she solved the problem and saved the ship. As for Troi, every time I watch this episode she just comes off as so abrasive that it really rubs me the wrong way. But I've never been in that situation myself, so how can I really judge? I like to think I would appreciate everyone trying to help or comfort me, but lashing out instead is equally plausible. I think what might have made this episode better for me personally, is if Troi had apologized BEFORE she got her powers back. Saying she is sorry only after she is in control again seems less like reckoning with her behaviour and more like just moving on from it entirely. (If that makes sense.) In any case, I think the true fault of the episode is that it's just really hard to explore a loss like this in less than 45 minutes.

You still can't convince me that her behavior was unacceptable in this episode.

At 40:55, when the ship escapes the string.. I think that’s the last time we hear that little diddy

I have a feeling the boys would love Nutrek where they don't respect the chain of comman < i dont, these folks are profesionals the best of the best, they are bound by semi military protacols, theres no room for Snark, I Hate Snark

“I’m good with all types of dicks” was a real lol moment, and you guys have only one season for that character wish to come true! Based on Josh’s take, I think they will really enjoy Season 5’s addition.

One of the three weakest episodes of season 4. I watched it when it first aired and never again.

This was a really weak episode but I was surprised that it was better than I remembered. It still wasn't good IMO but it had more good moments than I expected

Time again for a hook up check up. Yes it is the sex scoreboard: Well no real changes actually. So the scoreboard remains Riker 7 Troi 3 Data 1 Picard 1 Worf 1 Jordy 1 + 1 I (eat it spelling purists) Broccoli 2 i extra board comments- I almost gave Troi a - 1 . I have never seen Deanna less sexy to the point of unsexy. But once boots have been knocked they can't be unknocked. Some may say Jordy +1 for skin diving reference but as a Florida guy I can say skin diving has nothing to do with sex even in Florida. It is diving beneath the surface of the ocean without scuba gear just a mask, fins and snorkel. Not a term used anymore but us old farts still use it. As a side bar, farting while skin diving and chasing the bubble is a fun past time.

Health Insurance? Omg America 🤦‍♂️

One of the weakest of the season for me tho I do like Troi’s reaction to the loss of her powers it seemed a believable response.

Guys, the word Imzati was used during Encounter At Farpoint... alcohol is frying your brain cells. 🤣

I guess now Troi felt like Tam Elbrun felt the first time he met Data

Gene Roddenberry specifically forbade character conflicts in his future...he thought we should be more socially evolved by then. Its a NIGHTMARE for writers. Yeah, its laudable to try to create conflict from ideas rather than peoples feelings, but as a practical writing problem it must have been exhausting.

I guess I like this one slightly more than you guys, but not enough to bother defending it.

The openings are great. The only thing I would have done for this one is immediately after the Episode title card have Alex shirtless and Josh say "... maybe you shouldn't gamble."

Get over it. Next week will be awesome! Twice!

"With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about" - The comments when you make a controversial take

I get that you guys tend to dislike some B plots you feel aren't needed, and in some cases I agree. But Star Trek is not a show I want to give me a 45 minute therapy session.

From a type theory perspective, this is the episode that convinces me that Troi is a Sensor Type, not an Intuitive Type. Ironically, the Counselor Type is an Intuitive Type. You know who is the Counselor Type? Guinan. Guinan is next level intuition. Troi though? The thought of using intuition to figure out what's going on with people and counsel them, which is supposed to be what counselors DO, absolutely terrifies her to the point where she's convinced that she's unqualified for her job now because she's convinced she doesn't have intuitive ability. We now know that she's been completely relying on a SENSE, something concrete, to approximate what someone like Guinan does naturally through abstraction. Factor this in with most of her psychological advice sounding like it was memorized from a book, and yeah, Sensor Type confirmed. Not the best type for a counselor by the way. I agree with some others that it might have been best if they used this episode as a turning point for Troi and kept her loss of empathetic ability permanent. The writers never knew how to fully take advantage of that ability anyway, so not having to worry about it anymore would prevent potential plotholes of having to come up with a reason why Troi isn't there. Plus it could have been a huge path of character development for Deanna.

Something that occurred to me just now—in this episode they encounter two-dimensional life forms. And in the last episode, Riker and the crew forgot about the third dimension and flew through an asteroid belt instead of around it.

Troi was the "B" plot. Without the 2D beings and their "A" plot, there would be no "B" plot.

1:10:00 I am comforted to know that a certain future episode will blow your mind.

I think I rated this a c or do. But on watching it now I'm thinking a strong c+ or even solid b.

What im about to say is from season one so not a spoiler. Riker didn't say "I'm sorry" fast, he said "Imzadi". It's what they call each other, betozid word that roughly translates to "beloved" but it can apply to both romantic love and platonic.

As one who became visually impaired 16 years ago (blind in one eye and I don't see very well out of the other) I can tell you that my night hearing and my underwater smelling ability have greatly improved. : )

Over the last, almost, 34 years I have seen this episode at least 8 to 10 times. It was always a C at best to me. I felt that Troi was kind of annoying and that Riker overreacted with some of his comments. I don't recall Troi ever holding herself out as superior to or better than anyone else. Now, if Riker had been dealing with Lwaxana he would have been quite right. Speaking of Lwaxana, can you imagine if she had been in this episode? Yikes!!! After this latest viewing with you, I have softened my take on Troi. Her loss was not like the loss of vision, hearing or a limb. I would liken it more closely to Alzheimer's. I have seen people that I have known for many years who were stable loving people, go through fits of rage, sobbing uncontrollably or grasping at something about themselves that they know should be there but it isn't there now. New rating B-.

Riker actually says "Imzadi" which is Betazed for "beloved" or somesuch. Basically like their pet name for each other. Man, the SHOW ships these two so hard sometimes. But despite this episode just kind of being average, Frakes and Sirtis have a heck of a lot of chemistry and their scene together is just fantastic. You believe these two are former lovers, now friends, and may once again be more...or will they? Loved the reaction, and I agree that this episode had some really good ideas and bits but never really gelled.

I know you don't like what you call "technobabble", but one of the things that I enjoy about Star Trek and Science Fiction in general is that the science is valid. What they are telling you about the cosmic string is actually from theories about cosmic strings from the scientific community. Maybe you don't find this as interesting because the "new" science we learn about in TNG episodes is actually 30 years old. But I think it is a great way to learn about various scientific (and in other episodes sociological science) theories and ideas that one may not have been exposed to in regular life. And in the case of this episode, exposes the viewer to what people with disabilities experience by giving someone you care about and relate to a disability.

i never liked this episode and thought her acting was awful

Not my favorite but I really appreciate that it gave Marina Sirtis some breathing room to act in, and Troi's change in "abilities" gave her mind the chance to be creative in new ways, and exercise some lateral thinking, to help solve the crisis they were in.

PSYCHO-TROI!!

Total bitch "bad patient" Troi really does it for me. 🤩

Speaking as a person who went blind after the age of 40 and has been for almost 16. Years, I can directly address the idea that your hearing improves after blindness. Ther is no magic hearing, you don’t suddenly turn into a son of Krypton and gain super hearing The hearing itself is exactly the same, but as a survival skill you pay more attention to what you hear. I appreciate Deanna’s calling out of that particular myth There ways to compensate including putting a lot of heavy lifting on computers and AI tech

Don’t forget Deanna told her mother the Sacred Chalice of Reigs was just a clay pot with mold growing in it.

12:26 That whole "what's a headache" thing early on was so stupid. And it's been retconned about 20 times.

There is a book called Flatland, by Abbott Abbott or abbotsquared. (Can’t find a super script to add to the text.). The book is about 2 dimensional beings living in a 2 dimensional world it is cool but a brain breaker.

I came away with a new appreciation for this episode that I found surprising since in the past I was generally indifferent about it. Maybe it’s because I’m much older now than when I first watched it. It’s part of the beauty of Star Trek that you can see episodes from many different perspectives as the years go by. I felt much more sympathetic to Deanna than I have in previous viewings. Good character development and top notch reasoning by our crew to solve a problem without having to harm another species. A thought provoking and entertaining Trek.

Riker called her "Imzadi" which is Betazed for "beloved" It's a call back to the pilot episode Encounter at Farpoint and has been used in a few other episodes.

Imzadi, it is the betazoid phrase for lover as spoken in the episode encounter at farpoint

The scary part is this isn't even the worst Troi episode. It's bad but there are worse to come.

I rate this higher than most do, mostly for the Troi scenes and dealing with the trauma that it would be to lose one of your senses suddenly, not knowing if it'll ever return. I think most people want to believe they'd handle that with grace and integrity, but I know I'd personally become feral if say I lost my sight. I'd be known as the deranged blind man. But the episode overall is still solid for me because I've always been a sucker for that kind of generic sci-fi plot. The nerd in me is giddy just at the concept of a 2D being affecting a 3D ship. What a cool idea.

Didn't somebody send you guys that non cannon book titled Imzadi.

A common criticism of this episode is "Deanna Troi has a giant hissy fit the entire time." As someone who actually had sudden onset of a life-altering, technically disabling condition when I was 20, I think it's a pretty accurate representation of someone experiencing the denial, anger and bargaining phases of grief (which, despite typical depictions are not necessarily separate or sequential) while scared completely out of her flipping gourd. If you watch her body language, she's amazingly tense the whole time. Riker even says he's never seen her so scared. They spend a lot of time comparing it to blindness, but the way Troi herself describes it seems like not only blindness, but simultaneously losing touch and taste as well. Definitely overwhelming, especially in the first couple of days, which is as long as the episode lasted. This is one I both relate to and appreciate more than I did when it first aired.

My thought on Riker was he was taking the "tough-love" approach with Deanna when she was being so anger-mixed-with-self-pity.

I agree with Alex about the attitude of Troi in the episode: I would be a dick, too, if I lost 1 of my senses. I mean, this whole episode only goes over a few days. Over time, I imagine those feelings of anger and unfairness would likely leave, but the first few months (or weeks at least) - not fun to be around. Yes, absolutely.

It's funny. During the watch you guys seemed to have positive reactions to almost all the scenes so I was surprised at the low scores.

I forgot about this episode.

Riker said "Imzadi" not "I'm sorry". They've been calling each other that since the first episode

Riker said "Imzadi," which is the term that she used to address him in their first scene together in the pilot. It means something like "beloved.". On Paramount the subtitles say " Imazdi" also.

You know, Ive thought about this a few times, but its almost like Guinan is better at counseling than Troi. Yikes. Guinan almost steals her thunder. Imagine Troi having all the wise scenes Guinan had? I just pondered that a couple of times. Its tough because I bet behind the scenes they were like ‘Guinan is better than Troi, but we don’t have the heart to fire Marina. Lets try to give Marina more to do’. Its a pickle for the writers.

Imzadi is a Betazed word

As soon as I got to Alex talking about mishearing Imzadi as "I'm sorry" I knew I had to refresh the comment section and see how many people had to mention it after the first time. Didn't disappoint. We should also remind them that this was 90s episodic TV, Majel Barret was the voice of the computer, etc.

"After the last episode all we can go is up." Really? Retroactive back to the original air date I now directly blame you for this episode.

Riker said “imzadi,” what they called each other on occasion. It is dubbed, so very easily sounds like “I’m sorry.”

Well, at least there’s episode 11 coming up next.

I still think that the acting in this was top knotch

Also, 6 people just commented the same thing at the same time cause Patreon doesn't auto update comments, sorry 'bout the spam Josh. 😅

Riker wasn't saying "I'm sorry". He was saying "Imzadi" which is their name for each other from their prior relationship. It means something like "beloved" in the Betazoid language. I don't think we have heard either of them say this since season 1.

Imzadi means like 'my love' its like soul mate or something like that.

Hey guys, Riker was calling her "Imzadi", and also D.C. Fontana is a woman.

Riker said "Imzadi," the Betazoid word for "beloved" and a term only used between people with a strong connection. It's a call back to the pilot. Riker and Troi meet on the ship again after years, and Troi telepathically calls Riker that.

Riker was calling Deanna Imzadi. It's a Betazoid term he's called her before (maybe she called him this word too?). I always understood it to have something to do with them as former lovers, and a quick Internet search just now says that it's a term of endearment, commonly translated as “beloved” or “my beloved”. Also, I always felt like maybe there should have been a scene where Troi and Data discuss her condition, given how she never can read him anyway. Maybe even as simple as her realizing when she’s alone with him, that still feels the same as always, which might have been comforting.

Yeah I just skipped this one also and went to the white boards. I'm self consoled with the fact that most of the rest of the season is very good.

This could have been great, but Deanna is so insufferable in this one. Imagine talking about how terrible it is being blind on a ship full of blind people. I get that this is a very real reaction lots of people can have if they're suddenly disabled. But when literally everyone else around you has lived their entire life with that same disability and is there for you as a support system, that kind of reaction feels unwarranted and elitest.

Yeah, it's a sub-par Deanna episode, but there's some cool stuff going on here. I think the 2-D alien life form is a cool sci-fi hook, and look: I've got a taste for some of the campier elements of TNG, so I can't help but love Deanna freaking the fuck out on Doctor Crusher, and also Guinan laying down her classic passive-aggressive bitch slap that out-counsellors Counsellor Troi. :)

That's 45 minutes of your lives you'll never get back. =P