UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S3E20 - Tin Man

1:59 Lol Obviously this reaction was pre Star Trek VI

I’m so grateful you do this!!!!

When you said this isn't your kind of Sci-fi, I think that explains why I like this one so much. This IS my kind of sci-fi. I'm fascinated by Gumtoo the alien creature because I like sci-fi that presents fantastical creatures and races like that as an idea to explore. Something that's so ancient and foreign and enigmatic and fascinating. I can see why you found the score to be over the top, but for me, I totally bought into the over the topness of the score to the point where it makes me cry because it sells how wonderous this creature is. I guess I'm like Tam in a way, I would love to live aboard this thing and learn about it's life and it's race and all of its other mysteries.

I didn't even remember this episode. I wonder how many more times that's going to happen. There's something lacking in this episode for me. The telepath guy's character is interesting, and they did put some effort into a backstory. But something about them makes me a little indifferent. It's not a bad episode imo, though. I'd say it's a 6 out of 10 sort of watch. But YMMV.

They started Buffy but gave up? Why? They didn't like it?

(I apologize for taking so long to comment on this one.) “Tin Man” was the third Star Trek episode based on a pre-existing, non-Star Trek short story, following “Arena” and “The Slaver Weapon.” Writers Dennis Russell Bailey and David Bischoff adapted it from their 1976 short story “Tin Woodman,” which they had expanded into a novel in 1979; the short story version had received a Nebula Award nomination. Lisa Putman White was an uncredited cowriter on the episode, but Dennis Russell Bailey adopted the pen name Dennis Putman Bailey for the on-screen credits to acknowledge White’s contribution. This was the episode which its writers submitted because of their strong dislike of the previous season’s “Samaritan Snare.” I have not read Bailey and Bischoff’s prose "Tin Woodman" original, so I do not know what insight it gives into the meaning of the "Wizard of Oz" reference. In the TNG episode, the name in-universe may simply be a random code name– perhaps Starfleet encountered another mysterious lifeform they called “Scarecrow” the previous year? Michael Cavanaugh (Captain Robert DeSoto) later appeared in “Conduit,” the fourth episode of Season 1 of "The X-Files." “Encounter at Farpoint” had previously established DeSoto as captain of the Hood – he was the captain whom Riker famously refused to allow to beam down to Altair III when he was DeSoto’s first officer on the Hood – but this is the first time we have seen him. Harry Groener (Tam Elbrun) would have a recurring role on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" at a later point in the series than Alex and Josh reached. His most recent film role was as U.S. Senator Gale W. McGee (D-Wyoming) in "Oppenheimer." With Troi in a strong supporting role, Marina Sirtis is so excellent in this episode as to make the weakness of her performance in “The Offspring” inexplicable. Perhaps she was simply having a bad week? “Tin Man” is only the third TNG episode with a score by someone other than Dennis McCarthy or Ron Jones. Fred Steiner, who had scored such TOS episodes as “Amok Time,” wrote the music for “Code of Honor” in Season 1; the original plan was to have McCarthy, Jones and Steiner rotate on the show, but TNG’s producers found Steiner’s music for “Code of Honor” too old-fashioned and employed primarily McCarthy and Jones going forward. Composer George Romanis received the score assignment for “Too Short a Season” as a favor from Season 1 Supervising Producer Robert Justman. Ron Jones was unavailable to work on “Tin Man” and S3E22 because he was attending a composers’ seminar in the Soviet Union. He had cleared the trip in advance with the TNG production team, but the production schedule changed, and they became upset when they learned Jones was unavailable. This was one of multiple events and issues that would hasten Jones’ departure from the series. Dennis McCarthy scored S3E22, but “Tin Man” marks the TNG debut of composer Jay Chattaway, who would eventually succeed Jones as McCarthy’s alternate after Jones’ firing. For better or worse, Chattaway’s distinctive score for “Tin Man” (the first Star Trek score Josh has ever criticized as overdone) is not typical of his later work on the show, when, like McCarthy, he would buckle down to creating “wallpaper” for Rick Berman.

Alex you’ll have plenty of to cry over in a few eps

Data was the Tin man enhanced by his contact with the alien

I am watching for the first time with you guys, and I do really enjoy you guys. But, you talk and laugh during so much of the lines that I can not hear the lines. And some are serious scenes. I HATE having captions on but it is either that or I may watch on my own. But your discussions episodes are always great!!!

Hey Guys! New patreon member. Just a quick comment. Firstly, thanks for watching. It has been many years since I sat and watched all these episodes. I like watching with you and hearing your thoughts as the episodes progress, although a few times I find myself saying, "be quiet" as if you can hear me when you talk over dialogue LOL! It is interesting to see them again from when I was in my 20s and after all these years remembering which ones I initially liked and which I disliked. I will say, I wish you two wouldn't worry so much about how people will respond to your reaction or feelings on an episode while watching. I feel like it actually impacts your own reaction. Just enjoy the ride. You are truly going to love some and hate some, as we all do. Looking forward to years of Star Trek watching with you!

Not about TNG, but Midnight Mass IS perfection.

Good for you for recognizing Russel, it seemed like he and La Forge might have a history. Maybe he’s a favorite, or, maybe Geordi is a cruel taskmaster. The score would have been improved if an instrumental version of “You Spin Me Round” played when Gomtuu spun the Enterprise. That’s what pops into my head when I see Riker and Picard tripping out.

I think the old uniforms are supposed to enlisted specialists versus full officers who went to Starfleet Academy and graduated which is super hard to get into.

The guest actor's fine it's just a bad script, and for a guest character we're supposed to care about he gets little in the way of dialogue or character development or knowing about him other this one specific way that makes him alien.

And by that I mean there barely is one. "We've got to get to tis thing before the Romulans do" while slowly revealing the degree of connection and nature of the creature. The latter aspect of that could have been good but its like a good central idea they couldn't come up with enough of a plot for so they did the bear minimum plot to create interests and stake that at best rises to the level of mildly curious if you've never seen it before. Really does not hold up at all on a rewatch.

I get its about an alien in his society connecting with a bizarre lonely alien and finding peace. It's not a terrible idea, the surrounding plot and execution was poor.

It's a character story about a character who had potential but winds up being boring because we dont care about him and barely know who he is. And we never really care about Tinman or feel there's any real threat to it. It's not even clear why the romulans are so interested over a scientific oddity that was in neutral space and it doesn't seem like something the Romulans would go to war for unless they're just desperate to provoke a war any way they can which has never been the Romulan thing, its all about brinksmanship and schemes and plots.

Pulp fiction came out five years later. To me this decaf trek. Not a bad premise but the story is just dull. The Romulans come in as a generic threat to raise the stakes but it never feels like there are any stakes. It could have just as easily been the Ferengi and you don't have to change the story at all other then that these ferengi are claiming it rather then the ferengi alliance (all ferengi ships are privately owned but licensed by the Ferengi Alliance which means an action by an individual ferengi ship and crew isn't an act of war by the Ferengi Alliance) Its not terrible. Just Dull. Personally I enjoyed Captain's Holiday much more then this. It wasn't even bad enough to be especially bad. Just not one I want to rewatch.

I think the intentional camp aspect is what you missed. The story was trying to have a TOS with Picard rompy campy feel to it. I think you were guys were looking at it entirely straight which lead to you hating it so much and for technical reason the fan doesn't care about much because if its generally good, it doesn't have to be great for every episode and the Fans liked how it could be more then one thing, more then one type of episode or story, not always adventure like TOS which conformed to the market demands of the time for a new type of tv show. You couldn't get away with character pieces, everything had to be exciting action and stakes (which lead to redshirts dying which you don't see in the same way in TNG. Like if you had to serve under Picard or Kirk, you choose Picard because the odds are you more likely to survive under Picard. TNG had proof people cared about the lore so the Federation could play a bigger role and it and the ship were vastly more powerful and could use that lens to tell stories and expand the lore and the universe in a more conscious way. TOS WAS more consistenly exciting and dramatic no doubt. That probably makes for more consistency which cold make people like it better, TNG can tell more types of stories but there are risks in doing so which is why people call it "low caf" trek, it's not a pure adventure show

you think in terms of filming and cuts and technical things which just isn't the way fans are used to discussing the series. That makes it hard to predict because a lot of fans just weren't looking through that lens, so something like Captain's Holiday, you dig the fun campy vibe.

I've known there were polarized opinions of this episode for years, and I never really understood the vitriol some people have for it. I mean I get that Tam is a very abrasive character, but who wouldn't be with the thoughts of everyone around you driving you mad? And as for the Gomtuu story, maybe it's not some top tier story, but it's unique and certainly not terrible. Gomtuu's appearance was actually based on a peach pit. The idea of a living starship was fairly new in sci fi at the time, and would be explored a lot in the 90s in shows like Babylon 5 and of course Farscape. Gomtuu reminds me a lot of Moya, though I guess it's better to say Moya reminds me of Gomtuu. As I said, Tam Elbrun can be a very abrasive character. I'm a fairly introverted person and I can get utterly exhausted dealing with people at times. I can only imaging how much my sanity would suffer if I had the thoughts of everyone around me flooding my head at every second. It's a wonder the guy isn't completely crazy by now, so I can forgive him being a bit of a dick. Harry Groener is perhaps best known for playing mayor Wilkins in Buffy S3. One of the show's more entertaining villains. As an above comment pointed out this episode has some similarity to an episode of that show in which Buffy inadvertently gained telepathic powers. At first it seemed fun to be able to read people's minds, but nearly drove her mad by the end before the effect was reversed. As for Jay Chattaway's music, I don't mind it. It has it's moments where it works quite well, depending on the tone of the episode, but like others, I believe Ron Jones is the best composer of this era of Trek TV, and I'd love to hear what he would have come up with for DS9/Voyager/Enterprise had he remained part of the team. Data had a great role in this episode as well, and especially that last scene in the observation lounge was great. Decent episode IMO.

Very serviceable episode. The technobabble at times drags the episode (and yes it sucks to be LeVar Burton for that). The scoring isn't the best. I find it especially odd when the wood winds are used not on Tin Man. There I think it did its job (still not great, but less out of place). But the use in sickbay where we are hearing about Tin Man from another, just seemed out of place, versus the score when on Tin Man and experienced by both Tam and by Data felt more authentic. Harry Groener performance is good in the episode. And we get a real feeling on why Tam is so abrasive. And his scenes with Data, Tin Man and Troi really work. This is very possibly the first episode where I really dig the connection between Data and Troi which are not an obvious duo. But it really works. The Romulan side of things works from a visual point of view (thank you Rob Legato), but the Commander of the week fell flat. Solid 3 out of 5 stars for me.

I always really liked this episode myself. A story about a very troubled man in search of some kind of peace. On another note in what I have always thought was a rather curious and interesting cross series comparisons. The website Women at Warp compared the episode with the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode "Earshot." "Tam is a lifelong Betazoid telepath, while Buffy suddenly gains the ability after coming in contact with a demon." While Buffy's telepathy isn't permanent, it causes her to react the same as Tam, isolating herself to escape the pain caused by constant chatter in her head. Ultimately, Buffy recovers, but not before using her telepathy to prevent a classmate's suicide. Tam, meanwhile, chooses suicide by joining with the Tin Man lifeform. While he doesn't appear in "Earshot," Harry Groener, who plays Tam, also played the Mayor of Sunnydale in this season of Buffy.

The debate about whether or not Captain Picard - played by the same man who plays Professor X - would be okay with someone reading his thoughts... xD

Haven't seen this for a long time. So it was kind of new for me. It was okay but much to TMP like. Poor Tam. Decker merged at least with a sexy probe looking like his girlfriend.

@35:45 - that is on purpose! It should show that the monitor they use is 3D. That is reached by showing different "perspectives" from different camera angles!

This is one of those episodes that I'm sure I liked as a kid, but I can definitely appreciate more now as an adult. As a very introverted and sensitive person, I can totally understand that feeling of being so drained from dealing with too many people that you just want the world to go away. And the idea that two lonely wounded beings could come together and heal each other because perhaps purpose is someone to care for, hits me much harder now as well. The ending scene with Troi and Data is also very sweet. And I enjoy the score actually. My only criticisms are that the Romulan stuff sometimes just feels like wheel spinning, and you kind of know what is going to happen once Tam offers to beam over. Also, Tam is weirdly dressed like Peter Pan for some reason. Overall, not the best episode, but one I think is a little bit underrated.

they call it tin man, i call it spaceship pinecone

I love this score. And I love you guys, but man you talked way too much through great parts of this episode.

Not sure if two and two were put together from earlier episodes, but Betazoids have black eyes, or at least all pupil and no iris. It's harder to tell with Troi, but all Betazoid actors wear dark contact lenses. It's much more obvious with Tam in this episode, and with Lwaxana.

Don't worry about Chattaway and 'out there' scores like this. He experimented with his first score, and reins it in pretty much from here on out. I'm sure Rick Berman shot him a stink eye or two. Enjoy these "in your face" musical scores while they last. Spoiler alert: they don't.

I think Harry Groening is as great in this! From the moment he spun around on Data, It’s rare to see him turn in a bad performance.

You like this way more than I did, and I’m glad you did. It made it easier to watch. I think you’re going to have a several episodes with tons of patron takes over the next few weeks as you finish the season out. It’s going to be a bit of a roller coaster so strap in and enjoy!

Yeah thats pretty much it, this was an episode, with some good moments. Again its not needed, but its not minded either. Just a solid filler episode.

I think they had higher expectations for this episode and tried making it more cinematic, Excelsior ship model, V'ger explosion, more experimental score to try to keep a sense of urgency. It may never have reached these goals but it works for me somehow. Not my favorite by any means but definitely Star Trek.

Yeah I give this one a solid B+ for all the reasons already mentioned. Tbh after the big three episodes there’s not much left in this season to blow your hair back. Pretty mid. Might as well set the self destruct now and save yourselves the grief. 😉

The pan flute musical accompaniment does not serve the episode well imo. Had the Betazoid been less annoying, less of an adversarial element or perhaps more sympathetic, I think the concept would have carried more - Race against the Romulans for a discovery that could shift the balance?? How that didn't turn out well is a shame.

feel the many technical jargon geordie has to say throughout the episode slows it down. like they needed more scenes as the episode was too short

Whew... for a minute there I thought you quit Star Trek after Captain's Holiday. Lol

When I watched this one when it was first released I didn't like it, at the time I felt it was too soft too intellectual, and the 1980's style clothing didn't help. However, as I watched it this time, with the two of you, I found that it was a very good story, well paced and thought provoking. It's funny how you view things differently at different stages of your life. Back then I would have called it a throw away episode, now, I find it to be very worthy of the Star Trek brand.,

I truly love this episode. I think I really like Harry Groener, as a very-often-misunderstood person I enjoyed his character and his take on it. And I think the concept was great sci-fi conceptually which is always a draw for me. There are a lot of stories out there in space, this one is pretty unique.

"Mid Man"

This has always been one of the best TNG episodes to me. It's just a good, solid, self-contained sci-fi story (which makes sense, since it was adapted from a novel, by its original authors). It also has a perfect Trek ending, with Tam and Gomtuu bonding, and Data and Troi even bonding, and Data showing a little more emotional growth. And a star explodes. I think you need to give the episode soundtrack a second listen, separately from the episode, to really appreciate it.

This episode has always been in my top 5 least favorite episodes… and it still is. After season 3 TNG started airing daily and it seemed like they played season 3 episodes more than the others and it seemed like this got played once a month. I haven’t watched this episode in about 30 years because it was an automatic skip so I was curious if I’d like it more now with fresh eyes like I did with the bonding but nope. I did like your idea of swapping the Romulans and Klingons. If this was written today you could have added a second Klingon ship wanting revenge for Tin Man destroying a Klingon ship and tensions with Worf after Sins of the Father.

Worst episode of them all. I turned it off in ten minutes because this man is the most annoying Trek character ever, even more than Lt Boma on the Galileo 7. I found him unwatchable.

I grew up watching TNG as a kid, and remember this episode when it aired. When going back and binging this series, this episode is one of those, “depends on what mood I’m in” in regard to if I’m going to watch it or skip it. Sometimes It hits me just right and other times it’s “I could do without.” The Romulans in this episode only serve as a way of raising the stakes for the plot and could just have easily been the Ferengi or insert alien here. However we do get the name drop of the class of starship the Romulan Warbird (d'deridex class) is in this episode so my inner nerd can’t complain too much.

I'm with you guys on this one. It's a good mid-tier episode. It's not a banger for sure, for sure, but not bad either. Tier C or B. I do love the last scene though. I'm not picky about the score being great, actually to me, it's at least nice to hear something other than a string arrangement every time. I keep getting distracted by Tam's fugly outfit. What is he wearing, lettuce?

Not a fan of Chattaway's music. He's not as flat and wall-papery as Dennis McCarthy tends to be later on, but neither of them is as good as Ron Jones is. Ron Jones tapped into the drama and emotionality far better. Jay loves using those wood instruments, so get used to hearing them more.

To me this episode is very middle of the road Star Trek, nothing special but nothing really terrible.

52:32 Did you forget about Jeremy Aster already? 🤷

You guys probably already looked it up but Captain DeSoto was Riker’s last captain. He dropped Riker off at Farpoint.

I love this episode because its a blend of scientific discovery and adventure/thriller. Chattaway’s exotic score highlighted the “alienness” of Tin Man. Not for everyone. He called Jerry Goldsmith to ask for advice on alien-sounding instruments. I thought it was effective, and the action music was tense.

I suspected that you guys would find this episode merely OK. For me, I really enjoyed it. This was Jay Chattaway first episode as music composer for TNG and his score was great. It highlighted the alien aspect of "Tin Man" very well. Another reason why I enjoyed this. For once, we have a species who isn't just a human with a bumpy forehead. Also, highlighting the issue of a character struggling with their mental health was done well. Tam was a intriguing guest. Prickly, cagey and at times brash and abrasive. Yet also sympathetic and even relatable when you understand his back history. All up an enjoyable episode for me.

Shocking. I LOVED Jay Chattaway’s score. The wind instruments gave it an exotic “alien” sound that was different than most episodes. Chattaway actually called Jerry Goldsmith for advice on what an alien would sound like. Interesting that you guys weren’t crazy about it. What about the action music? I loved that. It really provided a sense of tension, especially after the commercial break when the Romulans attack.

45:36 They're definitely living. They (Tam & Gomtuu) saved the ships, and then saved themselves, and then returned Data.

Best get used to those damn Pan Flutes boys. Chattaway likes leaning on them for mystical, ethereal shit. And Rick Berman loved the Sonic Wallpaper of it. "Tin Man" was just the code name Starfleet gave the creature for when they talked about it in reports and such. Tam says it's galled Gomtuu. A very Baby Yoda to Grogu thing. And when Tam was talking about the death of a crew, he was describing what happened to Gomtuu's crew and why it was alone. the meaning of the scene just slipped by you amongst all the obnoxious woodwinds.

thanks guys. another fun reaction .. FYI .. I dont care if you love them or hate them. its just cool getting to see them again with new eyes. Ive seen most these so many times I usually can sum them up within the first minute ... oh this is the one where... etc

Can someone transcribe the lyrics of the theme song for me? Other than “Alex and Josh,” I honestly can’t understand a word of it.

41:08 "It's recruiting... food." ROTFL!!!

5:40 Midnight Mass? And you guys said you're not religious. 😂

2:00 I kinda wonder how many people in the comments jumped on the "hate it" bandwagon only because you two hated it. Hmmmm.

The captain of the Hood has his Cadillac scrapped by an orangutan in a Clint Eastwood film I'd love to see you review.

A couple of mediocre episodes after the triumvirate that is YE, Offspring, and SotF. Episodes like these is what keeps S3 from being put into the same category as 4-6.

Imagine the advantages of a Betazoid captain...

I'm looking forward to this --- Tin Man is a personal favorite. I love the quirky but profound guest performance, good use of Troi, classic sci-fi "high concept" alien, some pew pew action against the romulans, and some great Data moments on the bridge, interacting with Tam, and reflecting on meaning and purpose.