UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S3E9 - The Vengeance Factor

I loved the episode for showing the advanced role of the federation as diplomats and a power broker in the alpha quadrant. I do like how they brought back the disintegration effect for kill setting. But it makes zero sense that riker had to kill her. All he had to do was physically tackle her🤷‍♂️

It’s ok but not one of the lesser this season

So, I'm going to go against the grain and say I actually have a soft spot for this episode. And no, not because I saw it as a kid. I mean I'm sure I did at some point, but it's not the most memorable. It was probably 2018 or so when I last saw it as part of my big Trek rewatch, and I appreciated it a lot more than I expected given I didn't even remember it. I do think most people here are on the same page about what the strengths and weaknesses of the episode are. It's just a matter of how much you appreciate the positives and how much you dislike the negatives. I guess simply put, I think there's a really good episode here, but it's dragged down by poor execution. In some ways this feels like a season 2 episode shot in season 3. If I were to change the episode, I would definitely remove the scene of her killing the old man. I would keep Brull as the main guy for the gatherers and the meeting they went to could just be with other lieutenants from the gatherers. I would also have found a way to make Riker's need to kill Yuta much more convincing. Maybe she could have had a machine that pulls the virus from her blood and releases it as an aerosol, and they figured it out from the transport log. She could have been planning to release the virus just before transporting back, and it goes into the ventilation system and kills Chorgan without anyone suspecting her. Then the only way Riker can prevent her releasing it is to vaporise her to destroy the virus. Something like that. The main strength of the episode is Riker and Yuta. He clearly genuinely cared about her, and to an extent he could probably care less if Chorgan died, but there's a much bigger issue at stake. The gatherer raids need to stop, and that's not going to happen if he allows the assassination of their leader. From an artistic sense, I love the idea of Riker being caught between his duty and his personal feelings in such a painful way. He genuinely wanted to save Yuta, both when he thought she was a servant being prevented from living her life, and later after finding out she's been an assassin for the past century, but he's still going to do his duty no matter how much he ends up hating himself for it. So I think this episode does a lot to define Riker. Brull was also good but underused. Reminds me a little of Blackbeard in Assassin's Creed Black Flag. The kind of guy who's in the life but wishes he weren't. Yeah, he's kind of an ass, but he wants a better future for his kids and he's willing to swallow his pride and make a deal to accomplish it. Marouk was right in describing the gatherers as parasites. When Chorgan says "do we look like farmers" right after asking if they'll be fed and clothed, it just makes them all look too lazy and stupid to build anything for themselves. Brull at least seemed like he would have welcomed the change if the federation and acamarians offered to get them set up with their own agriculture and industry. Odd choice of aesthetic for the group though. And while I'm sure Worf personally maintains good hygiene, it's gotta sting having a klingon tell you that you need to bathe more. Marouk wasn't too bad in the end. She could be kind of condescending and short tempered, but given her aristocratic background, and the uncouth behaviour of the gatherers(Brull basically throwing "yo mama" jokes at her), she was surprisingly diplomatic and open minded by the end. It's certainly still on the low end for the season, but I'd probably give it a mid to high C rating. There's certainly much worse stuff.

Glad that’s over. Thankfully I now never, ever have to watch this dreadful episode again.

I forgot that this was an episode where you are clued in to what is going on almost from the beginning. No wonder I always found this one very boring. I agree with you that it would have been a lot better if we were in the dark, and finding out it was Yuta would have been a big reveal near the end.

"And the Children Shall Lead" is NO ONE'S favorite episode. Not every episode is someone's favorite. 🤪🤯🤣🖖

Snoozefest! It's a shame because I can totally see taking the premise and some of the main elements and making a really banger episode. Btw autonomy is basically self-rule (it literally means "self-law") without full blown independence (for example they can't declare a war on their own). The states that make up the US are autonomous to an extent: they have their legislature (state Senate, House of Representatives) with which to make laws and a court system to interpret and apply them. Obviously there is still the federal legislature and judiciary (Congress, Senate, Supreme court etc) but still each state gets to do its own thing within the framework provided by the Constitution.

I don’t think Jonathan Frakes has ever played Bruce Wayne, but he did play a Tony Stark type character on “Gargoyles”

Very much agreed that both the sovereign and the leader of the Gatherers were weak characters, both in terms of the writing and the acting. I think the thing where the audience is let in on something before the characters are CAN work very well, but it's not done well here. Ideally, it can be used to generate suspense, but the problem here is that we know from the beginning that she's going after a certain clan, so we're not thinking that the crew is in any danger from her. Or, if her relationship with Riker had been better developed, it could have twisted the knife of us knowing that she was going to betray him, but the episode doesn't spend enough time on that for it to have that kind of impact. I agree that in this episode, it would have worked better if the audience had been in the dark about her until the crew figures it out.

I knew The Gatherers was a Heavy Metal band back in the day. Had a big influence on Metallica. The 1989 "Blood Feud" tour was sick. I think if i could remember.

Josh, you and I are on the same page with this episode. Agree with all your comments.

I had a lot of trouble keeping the episode sync'd to your reaction this episode. Your reaction was running faster. (Trouble I haven't had for the past few weeks.)

46:30 Yuta didn't get that, either. (LOL!)

Working titles: “The Human Factor,” “The Vengeance,” “The Weapon.” This is the third Star Trek episode with the word “Factor” in its title, following “The Alternative Factor” and “The Icarus Factor.” Along with “Too Short a Season,” “The Vengeance Factor” is one of a select group of TNG episodes that I tend to forget exists. This may be because I saw reruns of these episodes less frequently than the others during the height of my Star Trek fandom in the 1990s, but there seems to be something about these episodes that prevents them from retaining their hold on my memory. Part of the problem with “The Vengeance Factor” may be Lisa Wilcox’s performance as Yuta. Jonathan Frakes is a wonderful actor, but he is not one of the three greatest actors in TNG’s regular cast (whose identities viewers have figured out by now). However, his scenes opposite Wilcox in this episode make him seem like Laurence Olivier by comparison. Certainly, one could argue that Wilcox is doing an excellent job of playing someone convinced that she has no choices in life, but unfortunately the result is that she becomes actively uncomfortable to watch. Also, the episode centers on a dispute between two factions of an alien race of which we have never heard before and about which we have no reason to care. While one could say the same of an episode such as “A Taste of Armageddon,” “The Vengeance Factor” does not have that episode’s ingenious central concept or its compelling guest performances (although Nancy Parsons is excellent as Marouk). The scenic backdrop in the opening shot of the episode comes from the film "Forbidden Planet." The backdrop was still in circulation in Hollywood in 1989, and TNG rented it for this episode. When Riker shoots and disintegrates Yuta, Picard’s failure to react is due to Patrick Stewart having to remain motionless in the background of the shot for the compositing to work. Episode director Timothy Bond thought that Picard’s presence in the shot would make the effect more impressive, but later admitted that he should have kept Picard off-camera at that moment so that the audience would not ask why he did nothing. As you mentioned, Lisa Wilcox (Yuta) starred as Alice Johnson in the fourth and fifth "Nightmare on Elm Street" movies. Stephen Lee (Chorgan) appeared in "RoboCop 2," which also featured Gabriel Damon (Jeremy Aster in “The Bonding”). The acting career of Marc Lawrence (Volnoth, the elderly murder victim) lasted for 71 years, from 1932 to 2003, and included appearances in two James Bond films (in separate roles), "Diamonds Are Forever" and "The Man with the Golden Gun." He also appeared in the "Wonder Woman" episode “Going, Going, Gone.” Alpha Leonis, the system to which the Enterprise will bring medical supplies after stopping at Starbase 343, is better known to Earth-based stargazers as Regulus, the brightest star in the constellation Leo. The writers may have had Picard say “Alpha Leonis” because “Regulus system” would have sounded too much like he was referring to Regula, the planetoid from Wrath of Khan. The Final Draft script has an added bit at the end of the final scene that would have made the conclusion more tear-jerking but might have weakened its dramatic power: Riker goes to a food slot in Ten-Forward and orders “Parthus. A la Yuta.” Marina Sirtis, who had reportedly hooked up with multiple male guest stars (I have no idea which ones) during TNG Season 1, met the man with whom she would settle down during the filming of “The Vengeance Factor.” Actor and rock guitarist Michael Lamper appeared in the episode as a Gatherer extra. He and Sirtis would marry three years later, in 1992, remaining married until Lamper’s death in 2019.

9:25 Riker's charm is only on when he's horny.

I agree with you guys about not liking being ahead of the characters, but I think it does give more weight to Yuta's relationship to Riker to know that she is the killer ahead of time. Though the explanation scenes were still tedious to watch for sure. And yeah, the Gatherers were pretty awful. I wish there had been more moments like the one with Wesley to humanize them a little or at least make them more compelling. Just an average episode for me, propped up by some good Riker moments.

I love this episode. Especially the part about the clans and their blood feud. That is a super interesting idea imo. Also, the blonde who plays Yuta is so damn sexy. Plus she tells Riker she'd do whatever he wanted. Jackpot Riker. I seem to remember Mike from Red Letter Media mentioning that actress for some reason on one of their videos. I cant remember the factoid, so I'll have to go find it so i dont go insane.

Trimmed down beard looks good, Alex! P.S. Yukon wants his Driver's License back...

First time I ever saw this (when I was very young, can't have been more than a few years after the episode came out) my Mom explained that the technology of extrapolating the face was impossible. But we have very similar technology now, and have for several years. I'm not sure it could reconstruct a face from that much, but I wouldn't be surprised if it could come close. As for the episode... I like it, but in my earlier comments I compared it to "National Treasure." I enjoy the episode, probably more on the second watch than the first, because I already know what's coming. (If you already know the killer and the outcome, it's not as disappointing that they tip their hand before the second commercial break.) But it's not like I can really justify liking it. I just do.

Funny you guys thought they didn't show the beam effect for dramatic purposes .... only they did, but not for the reasons you thought.

Have you guys noticed the new Phasers in season 3? Worf gives you a good look at his in this episode. As well as Riker in the end. Season one and two they had more of a tv remote lens emitter. In season 3 the emitter is more like a pistol barrel. I’ve always liked this ep, I love all of season 3! As a kid I appreciated the brief firefight in the beginning I came for the pew pew I stayed for the think, think.🤔

Interesting contrast with your apparent Hunt for Red October reaction... There you guys couldn't care about the plot because the characters did nothing for you, here, the plot being spelled out sapped enjoyment of the episode out for you, rather than letting you focus on the character beats. At least when a episode drops a reveal early, I always take it as the episode telling me it wants me to focus on how the characters are responding over any twists the plot might have had. Yuta, the assassin who unquestioningly does her duty for 58 years, suddenly met with someone who sees her as more, but still not able to break away from what she feels she HAS to do. And Riker, left not sure how he never saw it, wondering if he could have done more. Don;t get me wrong, this isn't a great episode, or even my favorite, and the use of dramatic irony wasn't really used for much drama, but I think there's some average merit here. I still like this one over The Price... but maybe that's cause this episode had some good VFX and shootouts and it tickled my man-brain. I dunno, I somehow feel more sympathy for murderess Yuta who seemed sincere, than I did that slimy Betazoid Ral, whose worse crime was manipulation. I'm sure after this episode Riker and Troi sat down and discussed their disastrous love lives.

What? You didn't go for the 80's metal band aliens?

I have trypophobia...I hated trying to watch this episode because of those things on the Gatherers faces....urgh!!! Am itchy and extremely nauseated at the same time when I see them..urgh!!!.shivers!!!

Riker is the king of consent.

"A low-key nice Wesley moment. ... but he wasn't a jerk about it or anything." *next scene* "YOU have CHILDREN????" aaaand it's gone.

"Brull, Marouk or Chorgan, which one overacted the most?" "Yes"

I can't say anything about this episode, because......I have to be vague enough about this.....it resembles another episode and strangely might have been a dry-run for it. Whatever the reason, it is odd that the writers would green-light another script for TNG.

A "good enough" middle of the road episode. I definitely agree with your point of knowing she was the killer to start. Just never watch the old "Columbo" show. They start every episode with the guest star committing the murder.

Another just okay episode.

Meh this is alright, nothing special and some weird editing and plot choices. Not really helped by being surrounded by so much better stuff.

Interesting, you didn't pick up on the awkward death scene. Picard just sitting there motionless really sticks out once you notice it. The director told him to be still because of the vaporization effect, and it didn't come off well.

The audience is ahead of the characters for the entire episode. I wonder if they'll like this episode...

Fun fact, i went to a Stones concert a couple of weeks ago and the Gatherers made an appearance. I swear, group of 6, same attitude, same rough housing, same hair. The leader guy even looked like Chorgan. They were in camo and khaki though instead of space punk.

I feel like they could have just beamed her off the ship and into the brig

The episode plays much better if Yuta killing the old man was cut. This for me is the last speed bump of season 3. Good-to-amazing episodes the rest of the way!

I completely agree that this one could have been way better with a little re-ordering, a little streamlining, and a Chorgan who was far less of a ham

I'm sure after watching the next episode you guys were like "How are these two episodes in the same show?" The difference in quality is incredible.

I heard the word "doofy" at the end there and I think that should be your entire review of the episode.

Fortunately, there’s not too many more of these lazy, 1980s era “why can’t these warring groups just get along?” kinds of episodes left.

I would say this is it nice murder mystery type episode I enjoyed it.

This is one of those episodes that doesn’t get a lot of replay for me. It’s what I would consider a slightly less than baseline episode. It’s not bad, but not memorable either, other than Riker vaporizing Yuta.

I just want you to know, that I love you guys in a manly fashion. But I freaking HATE how you force me to sync now. This damn sync player crashed around 30 minutes into every reaction. PATREEEEOOONNNNN!!!!

That thumbnail of Josh and Alex resembles my recurring nightmare of a job interview. Both interviewers' faces showing a mixture of incredulity and dissatisfaction with my answers. Alex: " How did this guy get this far in the process?!" Josh: "I'm going to have to talk to the security guard about it."

Two episodes in a row where our main characters had a "guest star of the week" love interest who turns out to be shady (first Deanna in "The Price") and now it's Riker's turn in this episode. Not one of the highlights of season three but not entirely without its merits either.

A solid little episode, but I could never get past Miss Ballbricker from Porky’s as the Sovereign. Love Lisa Wilcox though..

Genuinely forgot it was Thursday. I don't know where is be without y'all