UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S3E8 - The Price

My headcanon is that Riker BLUFFED the empath at the end and actually deeply cares about Troy. He saw the ploy as an over step and simply concealed one feeling for another -- it wasn't his first encounter with a half betazoid.

I have never had such a perfect synchronization as this time

I’m pretty sure they had Gates McFadden wearing a wig for a good portion of tng’s run, which might be why her hair has been different each episode

Yeah Ral’s such a douche I always thought troi would send him packing.

Really is an odd episode. Fun character interactions but it feels almost like another show in some ways. At least the music was working overtime to help sell the emotion of the moments! As an aside, about the Remastered series: all the non-CG elements (ships, stars, matte paintings) were shot on film originally so they were re-scanned in HD and put together to match the original. The shots have been re-made using those digital scans (same with the episode edits), but by and large what you are seeing is what people saw on TV back in the day. Better color balance though.

I disagree with your reaction to Ral and Troi's "couple's argument". Your initial reaction is understandable because that's how it's supposed to come across. But I think you/the audience got manipulated right along with Troi because the guy is that subtle and that good. If you listen carefully, what he actually said was: "when you use your ability, you do it to save lives. When I use my ability, it's solely for personal gain. So you tell me, which of us is more unethical?" Um, clearly Ral lol. But he painted it up to sound like that wasn't what he was really saying. This is a real manipulative tactic that people use, and it worked here. And yeah, I know that's the classic comeback, but that really IS different. Allow me to go over their conversation with a fine toothed comb to explain my view: 1) When she shows concern that he's being unethical, he shuts her down saying "it's just business". 2) He admits that he hasn't told anyone that he's an empath because it gives him a PERSONAL advantage. 3) Again, when Troi calls him out on this, he shuts her down, this time by admitting that he emotionally manipulated her, and implying that because of that, her feelings/opinion on this matter don't matter because she "let" that happen, as if him manipulating her was her fault. That's a narcissistic tactic to gaslight and devalue those who call them out, especially romantic partners. 4) The point of negotiating is NOT to take advantage, but Ral states that's how he sees it. He thinks the whole point is to win at any cost. The goal should be to make sure that the wormhole, or anything else in question goes to the party who is the best fit, and would be the most beneficial to all involved. What good is the Caldonians winning the wormhole if they can't maintain it for instance? But I doubt Ral cares about that at all. It's just about winning. But more than that, he knows he can't win fairly, so he rigs the game. He's not good at winning, at least not fairly. He's good at rigging. He's good at manipulating. That's his real "advantage". That's his "edge". Not his empathic ability in and of itself, but how he chooses to use it. 5) Ral tries to argue that using his empathic ability to manipulate to his advantage is ok because other people have been taking advantage of people without that ability for centuries. That's still taking advantage of people. That's still manipulation. That's still wrong whether it's Ral doing it, or all of humanity doing it. It doesn't matter HOW, and other people doing it doesn't let Ral off the hook. Forget for a moment that either Ral or Troi have any sort of special emphatic ability. Lets just say that they are both really good at reading people or as Ral puts it, listening carefully and reading body language. Whatever you choose to manipulate someone with, you're still choosing to manipulate them. You still choose to use your abilities, whatever they are, for good or for ill. 6) And Troi's right. When Troi senses someone's emotional state, she chooses to act for good, not ill. She has good INTENTIONS. She either uses it to give someone invited counsel, or she warns the captain that an enemy ship has hostile intentions. She doesn't intend any manipulation or deception even with enemy ships, and everyone who is able to, knows that she has that ability. This is the same as anyone else on the ship just using their intuition to do the best for whatever situation is at hand. But Ral doesn't use his "intuition" for good purposes. He uses it for ill. He intentionally uses it to manipulate others and to gain a personal advantage. And it's not even because anything major is at stake, it's just because he can. The point here isn't that they both have the same ability, but that they each use their ability with different intentions. Ral clearly uses his ability for manipulation and for personal gain. Troi uses her ability for empathy and warnings. But most importantly, Troi's INTENTION is to never misuse that ability to manipulate others or use their emotions and personal issues against them. Ral's intention is clearly whatever suits him in the moment which is almost always at the expense of others. 7) Ral's entire argument here is that it's perfectly ok for him to misuse that ability to manipulate/harm others for personal gain all because Troi isn't going to directly tell a Romulan captain that she can sense his emotions. That has nothing to do with his own self-serving and harmful intentions that he's trying to defend. Her not telling an enemy that she can sense deception when that would be inappropriate to say to them even if she wasn't an empath does NOT excuse his manipulative intentions with his own ability. This is called deflection, and again, it's a narcissist tactic to shoot someone down who's questioning them by making it seem like the one questioning them is just as morally corrupt as them, and therefore their call out of them is irrelevant. 8) And to reiterate this, he concludes his argument by saying: "When you use your ability (he labels it "taking her advantage" again, to paint it like she is just as morally corrupt), it's for your and your crew's protection and is a matter of life and death. When I use my ability, I deal with property and exchanges (meaning it's solely for personal gain and nothing important is at stake.) So you tell me, which of us has more of a problem with ethics? Again, I would say, clearly Ral. He's still an asshole.

Literally every single thing that Ral says to Deanna is a lie, misdirection, manipulation, evasion, or gaslighting. It's kind of hard to watch. Every time she tries to legitimatly learn something about him, he evades by spinning it back on her. He tells her she's in "counselling" mode when she's not, tells her she's the problem when she's not, he invalidates and downplays her feelings and concerns, and he acts like her wanting to know anything about him or have their relationship be equal in any way is a crazy thing for her to even be thinking about. Red flags galore. And yet "he knows the TRUE her!" And yes, people fall for this all the time. All it takes is a moment of vulnerability and the wrong person making you feel like you are finally being SEEN. Troi was vulnerable because she was struggling to identify who she actually was and what she actually wanted outside of her counselor role and what the ship expected of her through that role. Ral saw this struggle, swooped in, and convinced her that HE knew the REAL her. But in actuality, he shot down the REAL her at every opportunity. She wasn't allowed to have any opinion or perception of her own that was outside of the fantasy escape he was creating to control her. And in the end, when he did want her to come with him, it again wasn't HER that he wanted. He wanted her as his personal counselor. A role that he created for her. Which would have kept her right in the very self/role dilemma that she was struggling with to begin with. It's so satisfying when she realizes this, and tells him "I already have a job as counselor". And yes, the best part by far is when Riker calls him out. I've quoted that scene many times. Amoung other things, Ral doesn't know what REAL love is. Riker does. Riker cares about Deanna enough to legitimately want her true happiness even if that means she's with someone else. That's called compersion. His ego is out of the equation there, and his love is unconditional. Ral on the other hand approaches everything he does from a place of ego, and Riker knows that this actually works against him. Everything he does is to one-up somebody or to give him some advantage, including his relationship with Troi. He views her more like a prize or a conquest. Because of that, he'll never recognize what's actually important.

Ral is 41, but Matt McCoy was 31 at time of filming. Trek regularly lists the character ages as older than the actors, as a way to show that in the future humans age better. For instance, in The Survivors, the actors are 66 and 55, but the characters are 85 and 82. Canonically in season 3, Picard is 61 years old, while Stewart is 48.

I agree with the opening statement that it's not if it's good anymore, it's just how good. In rewatching the series, the lesser episodes have been elevated a bit by the context of all the really great ones.

The problem with this episode is that it’s sandwiched between two above average ones

I feel like in a lot of Trek, when they try to do "sexy" things, it's a little cringey.

Do some commenters really spend all that time questioning and accusing you of faking things? You are some of the most honest of those people online that I've seen. Some people seem to make sport of it. Just like it seems there's some people who go to every movie reaction video on Youtube just to accuse the reacters of pretending they haven't seen a movie.

My opinion of this episode is pretty much Josh in that thumbnail.

What to say about this one, what to say.........ooh, at least they threw Trek fans with foot fetishes a bone😁. Seriously though, it's not really that bad overall. There are some interesting ideas with the wormhole even if it didn't end up panning out. A shortcut across the galaxy would be pretty useful, but also pretty dangerous. No telling what kind of threats might be on the other side, and it would be a shortcut for them too. As it is, they don't have to worry about it. I actually thought the supporting cast was pretty good as well. Mendoza and the other negotiators were solid, and they finally figured out the ferengi as sleazy used car salesmen instead of trying to make them any real threat like earlier on. And then of course there's Ral. I appreciate the performance, but this guy makes me think of 24th century Andrew Tate or something. I mean I don't think he's evil or anything like that, but he's certainly extremely manipulative. Yeah, he raises some solid points during the dinner scene. But even in dealings regarding property, people can definitely get hurt. When Troi uses her abilities to further the interests of the Enterprise and it's crew, she's furthering the interests of the people who want to avoid conflict whenever possible, so I'd say his argument on ethics is cap, especially when he flat out admitted he played her to get her in bed. I don't have an issue with Troi having a romance plotline, but Ral is pushy to the point she's clearly pretty uncomfortable in her office, and he's just such a transparent user that it's a bad look on Troi IMO that she fell for him that easily. Without a doubt though, Riker's "counterattack" in 10 forward was a masterpiece of a scene. Ral is the kind of guy anyone enjoys seeing humbled and having that smirk wiped off his face. Oh, and those gym outfits were pure 80s. One of those things that date the show more than most.

I always like this episode because it had loads of character moments. Troi's evolution from Captain I sense something in S3 was so welcomed.

Great thoughtful reaction! You guys put much effort into your work and it's much appreciated. It's so nice to discuss these episodes with a fresh perspective.

Ral was a prick, and Matt McCoy did such a great job playing him. The scene with Riker and Ral in ten forward was awesome! The dueling with words etc. It was nice to see a Troi episode. It would have been great to start the episode off with a quick poker game, but no big deal. The writers have figured out the “formula” for the episodes. Character driven. ‘This is a Troi episode’ or ‘this is a Worf episode’ etc. they finally have the final uniforms too. This is all why season 3 is the break-out season.

You can't win as long as you harbor deep seated hatred for the Doomsday Machine and Spock's funeral. Repent! I found this kind of boring and turned it off after about 20 minutes.

So now you have seen one of the most infamous scenes of this show. Crusher and Troi “exercising.” Definitely requires your commentary.

I have always enjoyed this episode.

Ive always had major issues with this ep lo. I mean cmon, it's straight douche man lol. EEEWWWWWWW. Even that actor, he always plays a douche in things lol every single thing he acts in, he's the Entertainment industries Poster douche lol. But it is a great episode! Especially for the lore of Star Trek. It creates a lot for Troi and Riker backstory how they are with each other even after relationship. Riker is the BOSS! lol All we needed to see was the Riker Maneuver lol. Again that actor ewwwwwwww lol, but he definitely can be the best actor for what he does lol. And to see Data and Geordi is pretty cool with the designs of both shuttles, and how they acted.

Not everything in season 3 can be great.

One of the big changes in S3 onward is that they have a rotation of who the main story revolves around. Unfortunately the writers never really grasped how to deal with the female characters. Beverly Crusher's episodes ranges from good to awful, Troi's episodes are just a flatline bad. Yeah.. This is one of the latter.

This is one I assumed I wouldn’t like to rewatch but it surprised me. I said this in the patreon take, Marina Sirtis is gorgeous and getting better and better as Troi. She said recently at a convention that her breakthrough was relaxing into the role and bringing more of herself into it. The accent is slowly being dropped, Deanna seems more at ease which is good to see.

This episode finally strikes the right balance for the Ferengi. The show knows they're nothing more than a nuisance and plays to that strength.

46:50 I consider Skin of Evil a Troi episode, and a good one.

The look on both your faces with the Beverly / Deanna Troi "exercise" scene ROFLMAO ! Have another drink ;) Love your reaction to this! It is indeed a bit "odd" unique as you said!

I don’t love this one but there’s a few decent scenes. Especially the morality of betazoids scene

The Price is the first episode to reference the Gamma Quadrant. Soon, it would be an established set up that the galaxy is split into four quadrants: Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Delta. Prior to this, “sector” and “quadrant” were used interchangeably.

One of my favorite episode scores. It elevates the episode from meh to rewatchable by that alone.

It's true this is a bit of a weird one and I'm not too fond with how fast Deanna fell for the dude, although they had to fit everything in 44 minutes, but quite delighted how you seemed to groove with a lot of it.

The tall alien was Kevin Peter Hall. Better known as The Predator.

Serenity now.

50:36 70,000 light years. 😀 (The entire diameter of the Milky Way galaxy is estimated at 100,000 light years.)

50:22 And then, at the end, to "prove" it isn't always like that, Troi blurted out in front of everyone that the Ferengi is lying.

Please never turn into 'The Nerd Crew'. I appreciate that you both give your honest reactions.

I was waiting for the Tarentino joke!

Riker Unhinged - nice name for an episode title. Keep your eye on a Riker this season. You Jonathan Frakes fans are in for some treats.

Maybe the yoga scene was designed to "get your motor running" because it took place in a redressed main Engineering set.

I'm not sure if you guys have seen the movie "Predator" yet, but the very tall alien negotiator in this episode was played by Kevin Peter Hall who plays the title character in that movie.

0:32 Nope! You guys are honest in your opinions and that's why I enjoy watching you!

Working title: “A Price Far Above Rubies.” This is the first example we have seen in a while of one of everyone’s favorite kinds of Star Trek episodes: one that is bad in a fun way, rather than bad and boring. The episode is fascinating because it is our first chance to see the TNG cast and crew produce an ill-conceived and shaky script like some of those in Seasons 1 and 2 with the newfound confidence, style, and familiarity with the characters they have gained in Season 3. “The Price” sets a new benchmark for the series: from now on TNG’s quality may dip this low, but no lower. Advance publicity for “The Price” attracted angry letters to the TNG office from viewers offended by the inclusion of sex scenes involving Deanna Troi. These same viewers had never objected to Kirk and Riker’s sexcapades, demonstrating an obvious, misogynist double standard of sexual morality. Episode director Robert Scheerer, who passed away in 2018, and writer Hannah Louise Shearer were not related (note the difference in spelling). Ron Jones is back on form, once again elevating a weak episode with his profound musical talents. Jones, who had previously tried unsuccessfully to have music playing in the background in Ten Forward, composed ethereal workout music for Troi and Crusher’s calisthenics program which TNG’s producers also rejected. Jones stated years later that, “They let me try it, but they would never use that stuff—they never believed people in space would relax in a bar with music. They thought they were all hermits.” Although it was likely coincidental, I like Ral asking Troi, “Who counsels the counselor?,” creating a sense of thematic recurrence in the season by echoing the title of “Who Watches the Watchers.” The intent of the abrupt cut from the middle of Ral’s speech to Leyor in Ten Forward to the negotiations in the conference room was presumably to underline the fact that Ral’s comments convinced Leyor to withdraw the Caldonian bid. No material is missing here from the finished episode; the sequence precisely reflects the Revised Final Draft script: DEVINONI (he's got him) I'm sure you have. I'm sure we all have, Leyor... (beat) Do you realize that during the next century, the number of ships... 55 INT. OBSERVATION LOUNGE All parties are seated with distance between them around the table. Bhavani brings the meeting to order. However, presumably due to time constraints, the episode does not include the first two scenes in the script, which further set up Troi’s irritation and tiredness prior to attending the reception: a counseling session with O’Brien (which would, I believe, have been the first time we saw Troi in such a session with a crewmember) and Wesley approaching Troi in a corridor to talk to her about a trivial disagreement with his mother. Since these scenes do not appear in the episode, they are not canon, which is especially important to bear in mind for anyone who reads the O’Brien scene: nothing in it has any bearing on later developments. In the finished episode, Colm Meaney receives guest star billing for saying “Aye, Captain” over the intercom. Riker’s comment that he wants whatever makes Troi happy shows how he has matured since “Haven” in Season 1. Matt McCoy (Devinoni Ral) appeared the same year “The Price” aired in the science fiction horror film "DeepStar Six," one of a cycle of underwater thrillers released around the same time of which only "The Abyss" was a box-office success. He also appeared in the fifth and sixth "Police Academy" movies and, years later, in a recurring role in the first season of Prime Video’s "Jack Ryan" series. McCoy was 31 years old when he filmed this episode; the computer specifying that Ral is 41 is another example of TNG indicating that humans age more slowly in the 24th century. Reviewers have dismissed Ral as a loser whom Troi should have seen through right away, but I agree with Alex and Josh’s more nuanced take on the character. Elizabeth Hoffman (Bhavani) had previously played Eleanor Roosevelt in the TV miniseries "The Winds of War" and "War and Remembrance," both adaptations of novels by Herman Wouk. Kevin Peter Hall (Leyor), who was 7 feet 2 inches tall, originated the title role in the "Predator" series of films; he was also a candidate for the roles of Data and Geordi (the former making more sense, surely?) during TNG’s casting process. Hall died of AIDS-related pneumonia in 1991 at the age of 35, having contracted HIV from a blood transfusion. Scott Thomson (DaiMon Goss) previously played Chad Copeland in the first, third and fourth "Police Academy" films. He later had a small role in the 2002 sci-fi action comedy "Clockstoppers," directed by [SPOILER REDACTED]. (Why is the identity of a non-Star Trek film’s director a spoiler? Why, indeed?) Concerning the mixed ancestry of previous Star Trek characters, the novelization of "Star Trek V: The Final Frontier" states that Caithlin Dar, the Romulan diplomat in that film, is one-quarter human, but this information does not derive from anything in the film itself. I would have preferred for Marina Sirtis to deliver the episode’s final line, “I already have a job as a counselor,” with a bit more steel, but Sirtis undoubtedly bore in mind that Troi is still feeling the pull of her attraction to Ral even as she rejects him. In any case, the line clearly impressed Alex and Josh. As other Patrons will mention, serious discussion of this episode among Star Trek fans involves major spoilers for later developments in the franchise.

I'm with you guys, fun episode

Troi falls in love with the hapless husband from “The Hand That Rocks The Cradle”, “Police Academy” #something, and every 80s sitcom you’ve ever watched. I like Marina getting an episode, but this one is just filler for me.

I used to hate this episode just because it made me feel uncomfortable. Mainly because I don't enjoy watching episodes of anything that center around sleazy characters. I don't like those people, and I just want them off screen. And if they are a love interest of the week, or are being otherwise glorified in some way, they just become that much more cringe. However, I can appreciate this episode and episodes like it a LOT more now that I've studied a little about psychology, trauma, and toxic people. I have also recently personally experienced situations with charming yet manipulative people just like this. So now, all of the "uncomfortable" episodes, I used to skip because I didn't like the main guest character, I can really appreciate as real lessons on the subtlety of how those types of people work, how to see through what they are actually saying to you, and how to call them out and protect yourself from them.

Get used to bad Troi episodes. There's a lot more of them unfortunately.

No, it's ok guys, don't try to sugarcoat it. This is a terrible episode.

Good solid episode not top tier but some good moments and always good to have a focus on someone else

Beverly's hair changes length because Gates McFadden started wearing wigs when she returned to the show and they switched them up for some reason. The only episodes filmed out of order this season so far where the first two but the order in which they aired seems to be the intended one because Beverly explained her absence in the season premiere.

What was the problem with the workout scene? Spandex is what they wore those days (even now), mirrors are a staple in gyms, stretching is part of the exercises...... or maybe it was because we are not used to seeing these 2 characters in this position? I agree with the scene cuts, some were quite abrupt and felt "unended" for lack of a better word. For me, I liked the episode

What a piece of shit.

In the long run, this rather unremarkable Troi episode is more relevant than one would first surmise.

Noice