UNCUT REACTION - Star Trek TNG S3E4 - Who Watches the Watchers

We will never forget Palmer!

It's not necessarily anti-religious it's anti fundamentalist

“Maybe He’s not out there, Bones. Maybe He’s right here… human heart.” This episode’s title is a translation of the Latin phrase “Quis custodiet Ipsos custodes?,” an (apocryphal) quotation from the Roman poet Juvenal. This is the second Star Trek episode title derived from a Latin phrase; the first was “Bread and Circuses” (“Panem et circenses”), also a phrase from Juvenal, which was also the title of an episode containing potentially controversial commentary on religion. It seems to me that “Who Watches the Watchers” appeals most to two types of viewers: (1) committed atheists and agnostics, and (2) adherents of a specific religion with faith so deep as to be unshakeable. My late mother fell into the latter category. She was a devout Catholic, and “Who Watches the Watchers,” the most overtly anti-religious episode in all of Star Trek (which won a well-deserved award from a humanist group), was also one of her favorite episodes. (Incidentally, Mom was even worse than Alex at remembering episode titles, but “Who Watches the Watchers” was one of the few titles she had absolutely no difficulty remembering.) “Who Watches the Watchers” appeals to viewers such as my mother, I believe, largely because of Picard’s actions in it. In this episode Picard acts not only out of loyalty to the Prime Directive but out of his own irreligion. Since Picard, like most 24th-century humans, does not believe in gods, he is horrified by the idea that the Mintakans might take a false path into religion by worshipping Picard himself as a god. However, Picard would have responded to the situation the same way if he had been a devout adherent of a specific religion: since the Prime Directive would forbid him to proselytize his own faith to the Mintakans, he would wish to leave them free for the true god or gods to become known to them in their own time. In other words, Picard is the character with whom this episode invites viewers of faith to identify, despite his irreligion being more explicit here than in any other episode. Viewers with less certainty about their religious beliefs or lack thereof are less likely to enjoy “Who Watches the Watchers.” One of the things that has most powerfully shaken my faith as an adult is my being disabused of the idea, which I fully believed when I was younger, that everyone really believes the same things, but does not realize that they do, and that all art ultimately leads to a greater understanding of God, whether the artist believes in Him or not. The realization that large numbers of writers, actors and filmmakers genuinely have beliefs about the most important aspects of existence that are irreconcilably different from those in which I was raised and are willing to express those beliefs consciously and deliberately in their work without regard for the sensitivities of religious viewers has made it harder for me to enjoy a great deal of pop culture. This is especially true of British pop culture because of how deeply secularized modern Britain is. When British books, films, and TV shows such as "Doctor Who" take an irreligious worldview for granted, they are not pushing against resistance from their viewers, but rather are reinforcing the audience’s beliefs, just as the Christian art of earlier eras did throughout the Western world. I still find Star Trek episodes such as “Who Watches the Watchers” or “Who Mourns for Adonais?” more enjoyable than their British equivalents because their writers were demonstrating a willingness to challenge their viewers’ beliefs, but this is becoming progressively less true of modern media even in the United States, in which a series as deeply antitheist as "Family Guy" (for the first fifteen years of which Ron Jones, who wrote this episode’s score, was the composer) has now been hugely popular for a quarter-century. Episodes like “Who Watches the Watchers,” whether on Star Trek or "Doctor Who," serve as reminders that the writers and producers (and, in some cases, directors and actors) of my favorite series do not share my beliefs and may not even respect them. This is why such productions do not disturb viewers such as my mother: their faith is so unshakeable that they consider other people’s beliefs irrelevant to them, and people of both faith and good will, such as my mother, can enjoy and celebrate the work of artists whose faith differs from their own. Those of us, however, who find both the argument from religious experience and the argument from nonbelief compelling would find it much easier to believe in one god, a billion gods or no god if everyone else believed the same thing, and if art, music, and culture from throughout history reinforced that belief. I realize, however, that, unlike my feelings about the enforced relocation of the Tau Cygna V settlers in “The Ensigns of Command,” my discomfort with “Who Watches the Watchers” is my own problem, not the episode’s (and other Patrons will probably disagree with me about it as vehemently as they did about “Ensigns”). “Who Watches the Watchers” represents TNG at its strongest, and richly deserves the acclaim it has received over the years from my mother and others. “The Survivors” and “Who Watches the Watchers” feature TNG’s first location filming since the holodeck scenes in “Pen Pals” the previous season. As Alex and Josh recognized, “Who Watches the Watchers” marks Star Trek’s return to Vasquez Rocks, previously seen in “Shore Leave,” “Arena,” “The Alternative Factor,” “Friday’s Child” and Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home. The year after “Who Watches the Watchers” aired, Ray Wise (Liko) debuted in his best-known role, that of Leland Palmer, the father of Laura Palmer, the teenager whose murder was the original focus of "Twin Peaks." He also played a Council of Nine member on "Agent Carter." John McLiam (Fento) appeared in small roles in three episodes of the original "Twilight Zone:" “The Shelter,” “The Midnight Sun” and “Miniature.” James Greene (Barron) had a recurring role on "Parks and Recreation" but did not, in fact, appear in Star Trek prior to “Who Watches the Watchers.” On this rewatch I did not realize or remember that Warren was a woman until her death scene. Why does everyone in the cold open keep referring to the anthropologists as a “three-man” research team? Even in the 21st century we are more mindful about the use of gendered language. (Also, Warren’s death at exactly the right time is awfully convenient for the plot.) Concerning the “Dick’s Sporting Goods” issue, fans have complained that the Mintakans should not have such complex bows at their level of technology. Other fans have argued that the Mintakans’ high intelligence could well have allowed them to construct such a bow with the resources they have available. (See the “Incorrectly regarded as goofs” section of the episode’s IMDb page.) In my opinion, “Who Watches the Watchers” is the best TNG episode the Target Audience has yet seen but is not one of the top six episodes of Season 3.

It seems like just beaming Troi (Or Palmer for that matter)out would not only have been effective, but also limit most of the cultural contamination. But it would have been a pretty short episode. I guess the moral is that understanding is better than superstition and ignorance.

I forgot about the scene where Riker admires the idea of Mintakan wives pimping out their husbands. I think he's the only character who would react that way.

Roddenberry was an atheist, so this episode fits perfectly with his worldview and therefore makes for a classic Trek episode. I also happen to agree 100% with what Picard said about religion lol.

O Brien was dining a movie in the beginning of the 3rd season

With the third year Stewart definitely stepped up his performance

Another classic example of the serious jump in quality and surety of writing in season 3 as compared to what came before it. Loved your reactions and I am just as excited to watch the rest of the season with you two! One oddity I noticed in this video is that your sync seems loose somehow? With it completely synced up at the beginning of the episode, every 5-10 minutes or so when you included a video/audio clip, I found that my playback was slightly behind again so I had to pause your video for a few seconds to re-sync. Not a problem really, but this is the first time I've experienced it. Strange!

I really liked this episode and the issues it presents

I love when Troi and Riker walk down the hill and the camera lingers on the Vazquez Rocks as they walk out of frame. ❤️

On the religious side, people seem to completely miss a massive distinction. Picard makes no judgement value of any kind on the societies naturally evolved belief system. Zero. None. For example, if they still believed in the overseer when this occurred. He likely would have no issue with them putting what they witness and applying it to their current belief system, He is utterly upset about reverting a society who has moved past those belief systems, in their own words "countless generations ago". These are not current beliefs. They themselves had come to consider them supernatural beliefs and superstition. This is a society that no longer believed weather events were due to the their or a divine beings actions. Or that the movements of stars represent aspects of their life. This would put their understand of the nature of the environment far past the Bronze Age of our world (in comparison to where they classify them based on the tools they use). In fact the beliefs systems would be significantly further evolved, Picard is pissed that their actions, are causing a culture to regress hundreds if not thousands of years ago in beliefs, massively impacting a culture that has moved towards more rational understanding of their world around them. Then the next part when he told he should play into the role of their new god, creating in full cloth a religion not determined by their long ago abandoned beliefs, but one fully created by someone who is in no way part of their own culture. Picard's entire arguments are couched in how they Mintakans have grown to see the world around them. He starts from the point of their own development. How would a long ago ancestor perceived them today. The fact the culture even understands that samples found in caves represent themselves from an earlier time, is pretty solid advancement for being in the Bronze Age. This isn't an attack or Picard judging a cultures religious beliefs system.

Oji is the voice artist of Bobby Hill (Pamela Adlon) I think all 3 of her daughters are actors now… Everytime I hear her go Father! I go Dad! In a Bobby Hill voice. 😆

Man, another banger! So cool! And watching you two, cmon... Glorious!!!

I don't know if it's on my end or what, but this episode and last episode I have had to constantly resync with the reaction video. It's like the episode in the reaction is playing slightly faster than my version (Paramount+). After a just a few minutes my version ends up a second or two behind even when I sync perfectly.

I knew the comments section on this one would get a bit spicy. This episode tends to be something of a rallying cry for Trek's atheist audience, and I don't begrudge their reading of the episode. I more have a problem the gatekeeper types that point to it as evidence that "Trek isn't for religious people", or like Marina Sirtis who has said "you can't be a conservative and a trekkie". Both statements are ridiculous IMO, and factually untrue. The way I see it, no 1 episode can define the franchise or even a character like Picard, as you have a whole team or writers all putting their own spin on things. You're going to get different perspectives. On top of that, the viewers will all have their own perspectives as well. Given I just watched the Is There in Truth No Beauty reaction, it goes back to the vulcan idea of infinite diversity in infinite combinations. There are so many ways to interpret Trek. So many different lessons to pull depending on one's perspective. Is the episode anti religion? Yeah, I'd say at least to an extent that's what they were going for. But as far at the particular scenario is concerned, I would have done the same as Picard. One can read his "horrifying" to mean the very thought of the mintakans going back to religion, but then the scenario of inquisitions and wars Barron described WAS horrific and must be avoided. Especially since that wasn't the path they were on before the interference. There's a rather naive belief however that religion is the root of all war and conflict, when it's estimated religious causes were only associated with about 7% of recorded wars, and 2% of deaths from all wars. To say nothing of communism, a secular philosophy, killing 100-150 million people in the last century. Take away religion and we're 93-98% as shitty. And as Steven Johnson pointed out, there are many pillars of modern civilization that find their root in religion, so there's a good argument that the good outweighs the bad. Ultimately all faith must be personal faith. As long as we all start from the understanding that everyone is free to believe or not believe in whatever they choose, free from force or coercion, then what people believe won't hurt anyone. What I read of Picard in this episode is not so much that he has some personal philosophical agenda driving his actions against religion in general. He is, as he rightly should be, horrified at the prospect of being seen as a god, when he knows he's just a man. Picard is a highly principled man, who values truth above almost anything else. Posing as a god when he knows he's mortal would be an affront to everything he stands for. That's best exemplified when Nuria says "you do not wish it?" and he replies "I do not deserve it". On top of that, he sees the potential in the mintakans, and the last thing they need is fear of him and what he might do as an "overseer" sparking a war. So he found a better way to get them back on the path they had already set for themselves. Finally, we see one of starfleet's "duck blind" missions. They always struck me as rather careless. We already saw a few episodes ago that starfleet can build nano machines. Seems to me it would be childs play for them to build drones in the form of local birds and insects. They could have a ship in orbit, perhaps disguised as an asteroid if the locals are at a point of having telescopes, and simply beam down these drones and fly them around with the locals none the wiser. They could literally be a fly on the wall. That would make so much more sense than risking exposure to the locals. Anyway, great episode, and a great showcase for Patrick Stewart

Also, we can't really have a Prime Directive episode where it goes the way it's supposed to, because, what would the episode be about then?

I don't think Troi and Riker just simply dressed up as Mintakans, but they had cosmetic surgery done to look like them too. Which in the future is a VERY outpatient procedure. As for Picard's observation room speech, I don't think it was necessarily anti-religious, just anti-regression. We're told the Mintakans are a rational people who long ago left behind mythological beliefs. What he was asked to do was to reverse the societal progress they had made. And for an explorer, scientific, academic man for whom the pursuit of knowledge is of vital importance, THAT is what angered him, sending them BACK to a way of thinking they had evolved beyond. He recognizes religion as a societal coping method, a step in progress, and a multi-faceted issue that certain species have their own unique relationship with. In Star Trek some societies still retain religious aspects, some move on, some are built around their beliefs and mythologies. Some also exist without religion. He seems to understand and respect all of these as a part of a developing society. And heck, at this point he's met, what , TWO god-like beings with others documented in Starfleet history. It's not like he's got no understanding of what religion is or how it or Faith works, the merits and the drawbacks. But he will not REVERSE the status of that relationship a society has, especially when it could get so out of hand,, especially in HIS name. That is where I believe his anger is born from. A nice little uncommented on wrinkle is PICARDS almost religious adherence to the Prime Directive. Liko offers up his life for his belief in Picard to bring his wife back to him, and in the same scene, Picard offers up his life to prove the Prime Directive's relevance. I dunno what that juxtaposition is saying, exactly, but I like that it's there.

I was never sure how religion took a sharp left turn between TOS (where it was fairly common) to being treated as anti-civilized here. I guess it's just another character aspect of Picard rather than a belief that permeates the entire Federation.

My opinion, in Worf's voice... "Good score ...... nice locations"

Top tier TNG episode. It has a bit of everything. Action and suspense, ethical dilemma, great Picard speeches and scenes. Fantastic.

This episode is on a lot of peoples' all-time favorites list. To me, while I like it, it really is a bit goofy and Ray Wise is far better an actor than the performance we see here as Liko. Then again it's a very good Picard performance and finally a fairly good Prime Directive dilemma.

I was wondering if I could ask a teensy weensy favor….I know because of Copyright you can’t show the picture, or hardly any sound. I was wondering if you could keep the sound on while we’re sincing with the episode for a bit longer. I find myself several times trying to sinc when the sound comes on, so I’m constantly adjusting. Can you extend the sound for an extra 10 seconds or so to help that? That would be awesome.

You guys got quiet AF for a long time and that was a great and appropriate reaction

I always thoroughly enjoy this episode. Religion is still one of the last holdovers from our own dark ages, which ironically was also the cause. People still say and do ridiculous things in the name of pleasing a sky being.

I'm with Picard as far as religion and faith are concerned. Horrifying indeed. Strong episode

With a last name like Monk, how do you THINK I feel about this episode? 😀

46:40 It wasn't religion that Picard was trying to defend the Mintakans against. It was incohesive, irrational thinking... like the stuff that Liko was just pulling out of his ass. He was writing the book "How to Keep The Picard Happy in Twelve Easy Steps" as we watched, and all of it was his imagination pushed by circumstances and irrational conclusions.

I always wondered just how they determined that they were following a Vulcan parallel evolution and not Romulan...

Yep, Vasquez Rocks Natural Area Park. It was also where the location shots from the TOS episodes “Shore Leave”, “Arena”, “The Alternative Factor”, and “Friday's Child” were filmed. So were some of the Vulcan scenes from “ST IV: The Voyage Home”. Whether or not the location shows up again later I won't say because of, you know, spoilers. Lots of other TV shows and movies were also filmed at Vasquez, too many to mention here. And another fun fact from Memory Alpha: “The cast and crew spent two days shooting in 100°F (38°C) heat. Due to the presence of local snakes, scorpions and bees, no attractants such as deodorant or perfume could be used.” Lovely.

"Hmmm, so what am I going to do this Sunday af- OHMYGOD Target Audience JUST POSTED!" That's almost actually how it went a moment ago lol

Jumping from my Sunday service stream to this, I have to admit, is a little ironic.

It seemed to me that Leecon was still considering if he should shoot Picard, but his daughter panicking and shoving him made him accidentally release the arrow.

ah, Star Trek and religion! just you wait...

15:25 They aren't Vulcans. They're Vulcan-like, but this isn't the planet Vulcan. And, perhaps they have orange blood! Though I am not sure how. I did always wonder if they were supposed to think Picard's red blood was weird, or even if they recognized it as blood.

This has always been one of my favorite season 3 episodes. Kathryn Leigh Scott is terrific, and her scenes with Patrick Stewart work well. Also, Troi disguised as a Mintakan looks a lot like Tyne Daly 😀

4:12 Yeah she's in Starfleet. But she's a bit more casual because of her job, to help people feel more comfortable in private.

2:50 Wow, you sure picked up and recognized THAT quickly... !

A Prime Directive episode that firmly established Picard's lack of religious faith. I take that back, he DID have a religious faith... secular humanism.