FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek TNG S3E1 - Evolution
We want the discussions to feel as exclusive as the UNCUT reactions do, so this season we will be doing essentially no editing to the discussion itself (beyond cutting out long periods of us staring in silence at Patron Takes on our phones) so that you truly get the raw full discussion. Even the parts where we ramble off topic or mess stuff up.
Let us know if you enjoy the longer more unedited style for the Patreon version.
Comments (94)
Star Trek The Next Generation was a syndicated show. There wasn't a "summer hiatus." Season two was shortened by the writer's strike and started very late - end of November or early December - depending on the market, but all other seasons had 26 episodes, one first performance and one repeat. (In my market, they aired TNG twice a week, repeating the new episode, before the next "new" one, so you had two chances to watch it.) There were no breaks. I can't say I recall exactly for season two, but I believe they aired a few episodes from season one for a third time. But that would have been the only time. And for the record, the last two episodes of season two aired in July of 1989 and the first of season three at the end of September. So when it said "next time" it truly as just the next week.
Fine episode... not much to say about it. But here is where I will add that I always thought that season two Dr. Pulaski was a more interesting character than season one Dr. Crusher. (Even if she is a rehash of the Bones character) We'll see what season three Dr. Crusher brings to the contest.
25:20 They actually still could have shown this episode out of order. easily. They briefly mention that Dr. Crusher was gone recently, but nothing said onscreen absolutely requires that this be her first episode back. That's why we DON'T see her arriving and hugging Wesley for the first time. The absence of stuff like that was intentional precisely because of what you guys said. The writers really never knew what order the shows were going to get to the viewers in.
The thing about Crusher returning being "spoiled" by the opening credits was that I don't think her return was even supposed to be a big thing from the producers' perspective. TV shows at the time were in the habit of actively glossing over cast changes. (See Bewitched, Roseanne, etc.) They wanted it to not be a big deal so that it didn't get in the way of people just tuning in and watching the dang show. They did not expect most viewers to be catching every episode every week, and binge watching wasn't a thing at all. It was in their best interest to make each episode FEEL like it had the same status quo as the others. Make a big deal about an actor being replaced and suddenly half the audience feels like staying current on Star Trek is too much work.
The thing about ST:TNG was even though contemporaneous fans generally rate seasons 1 and 2 lower than those that followed, they still tuned in every week so they could nerdily critique every aspect of it.
I never liked Crusher. Preferred the potential of Pulaski, but that was ruined by writing.
I really dislike this seasons outfits, too thick and for some reason you can see all the seams it's SO odd they look so poorly designed with the seams the way they are. Don't despair the costumes get better in the following seasons!
Beverly Crusher's return was somewhat of a last minute change prior to the start of production of Season 3. During the incredibly short hiatus (remember: Shades of Grey aired in mid-July because of the stike) Diana Muldaur essentially approached the producers and let them know she would not be returning, and there was essentially no love lost with her departure. No animosity, but there was a general feeling that the character had not gelled (I fully place this on the fault of terrible writing- to shoe horn her into the mold of "a female Bones" was a great disservice to the character AND to the actor who played her, and while the character did certainly grow more throughout the Season 2, she still had those Bones attributes all the way to the season finale). For many years there was also a lot of rumors that Diana Muldaur did not get along with the cast, but this has been dismissed by cast members and Muldaur. Michael Dorn, Wil Wheaton, and most recently Patrick Stewart have all said very positive things about Muldaur and her contributions to the series. With her departure, and with the first SEVERAL episodes of Season 3 already written for Pulaski, it left the producers scrambling to find a solution. The producers reached out to McFadden to see if she would be interested in returning (since Maurice Hurley has left...and he was the main reason for her departure), but it took Patrick Stewart reaching out to Gates McFadden and begging her to come back. They reworked a few scripts, rearranged the shooting order of a couple of episodes, and they were off to the races.
"NO! You have to like the seasons in this order: [insert order] And each episode you have to like in this order: [insert order] I'm glad I could help you understand what is good and what is not. You're welcome." -The Internet lol Kinda sucks people were telling you what to expect. I'm totally fine listening to you guys come up with your own minds. People have to stop telling you what to expect and just let you discover them on your own, with us for the ride. So much more fun that way. Why can't the conversation with us and the reactors start after the episode or season, not before?
👍👍👍
Uniforms: they took away the color piping on the black shoulder fabric.
makes 'em look my cleaner in my opinion.
ST TNG is sooo bad at keeping 'surprise' moments quiet. Maybe you guys can't watch the opening credits either...lol
The surprises have to be spoiled sometime. If they put it in the opening credits and broadcast it like that, then it must be good enough.
You're only watching the episode teasers after the episode and during the discussion, yeah? Avoid these like the plague before episodes because they spoil many surprises.
So, uh, you guys have a baseball in your 10 forward backdrop.... Just wondering, do you know the significance of that? Just thought that was interesting to have that in there or if it was just part of the image that you picked for the backdrop.
Baseball is a theme in “evolution”. It has nothing to do with anything else we are not talking about.
“ hi my name is Bob Kelso, and I like whores.”
I can understand the complaints about Stubbs, but if you ask me, what you guys are interpreting as a bad performance is to some degree intentional. Stubbs himself is always playing a role, so to speak - as Troi points out, his self-portrait is well practiced.
I think the reason many fans think of Dr. Crusher as boring and bland is, ironically, related to one of the reasons Alex and Josh love her so much -- the subtlety of Gates McFadden's facial acting. Many of us grew up watching TNG on standard definition televisions, which made the nuances of McFadden's performance more difficult to appreciate. We always *liked* Dr. Crusher because she was a well-written, likeable character, but she was boring in comparison to Dr. Pulaski because, as with Patrick Stewart and Marina Sirtis, you could always tell even in standard definition that Diana Muldaur was ACTING. Watching Gates McFadden in high definition is like looking at a restored Renaissance painting that was formerly dirty and covered in varnish -- it's only now, in the Blu-ray era, that we can appreciate how great she was all along.
She was a dancer and a poor actress who grew into the role and got better
This episode marks the entrance of costume designer Robert Blackman, who will go on to design uniforms for Star Trek for nearly 15 years.
The "Theiss Titillation Theory" still applies, though. R.I.P. William Ware Theiss.
18:20 Stubbs was not, unfortunately, electrocuted. Electrocution is DEATH by electric shock. He lived. (Just as drowning is death by suffocation in liquid.)
I learned something new today.
10:13 That doesn't bother me. Time passes between seasons, just as it passes between episodes. We don't see or need to see every "moment" on the ship. Pulaski left, Crusher came back. Personnel transfers happen regularly in the military.
Winrich Kolbe (German, pronounced vinrish kolb) is a pretty prolific trek director, and for a time dated one of the cast members on a later trek show
Thank you for pointing this out, it's been bugging me too! 👍 R.I.P. Winrich Kolbe
I know this one is pretty long, but it explains some about my feelings for reboots in general and about two rebooted shows/franchises I love in particular, and there is a sort of a connection to this episode. I've mentioned before that I'm also a Mystery Science Theater 3000 fan, and I have loved it since 1990 even through cast changes and network moves. I don't love every episode, but I don't love every ST episode, either. When MST3K moved from Comedy Central to The Sci Fi Channel in 1997 they were allegedly inspired by this episode and got their own billions of Nanites, and some became recurring characters. This is the host segment where they are introduced in the first Sci Fi Channel episode: https://youtu.be/cFMuqup_jos?si=DbRJAiX57SoYrg0J There's even a potential (but probably not) reference to the Pakleds in the scene. I have the audio only of the 178 (roughly 90 minutes each after the commercials were taken out for DVD release) Comedy Central/Sci Fi Channel episodes plus more ripped and loaded onto my MP3 player, and sometimes I listen to them at work. I've watched them enough where I don't need to see with my eyes to see them in my mind. I've considered doing the same thing with TOS and TNG but it took a long time to do the MST3K episodes, and it would take even longer to do all that ST. Maybe some day. There are tons of ST references throughout the first 10 seasons of MST3K, ranging from TOS to Voyager, including an episode from the Comedy Central years where the host segments are a pretty good parody of the TOS episode “Mirror, Mirror”. There could be more references in a Netflix reboot that happened a few years ago, but I wouldn't know. I gave most of the first Netflix season a shot and hated it because everything I loved in the first 10 seasons had been stripped out and it felt like a shell of the former show. I managed to get through the first 12 of the 14 episodes thinking it had to get better or at least be funny but it just didn't work for me so I gave up and purged it from my memory banks. It went one more short season on Netflix before it was canceled and then one crowd funded season later on and nothing in the last couple years. The reboot even temporarily affected how I felt about the earlier shows and I didn't watch or listen to any of it for quite a while. I eventually decided the MST3K reboot is in a mirror universe and doesn't exist in my little world. The bad feelings that experience gave me is a big reason why the rebooted Star Trek movies and timeline don't exist for me, either. I personally don't avoid spoilers so what I've heard and read about them was enough to turn me off completely. If anything about them intrigued me even a little bit I would have given them a shot, but nothing did. For me, “reimagined” is no imagination at all. Just because I'm in my 60s doesn't mean I don't like new and shiny things. I just don't like new and shiny things that whizz on the original.
Most of the criticism for seasons 1 and 2 came years after by newbie viewers. Trust yourselves.
I gotta disagree about Ken Jenkins. If you want to say his part wasn't written well, that's one thing, but he wasn't "phoning it in." I don't see that at all.
Yeah, I don't get their criticism of Jenkins or Stubbs. The character is supposed to unlikable and arrogant but with ample (if subtle) motivation established for why he is that way, and the actor portrays those nuances wonderfully. I also wonder if they caught the parallel the writers were drawing between Wesley and Stubbs, that Stubbs was basically what Wesley could become in 30 years if he continued his more obsessive tendencies.
I liked this episode and I liked Stubbs!
Stubbs was the ancestor of the great Dr Robert Kelso of the 21st century
https://youtu.be/P0uWn7dW3XQ?si=EKd1nqrr5FTlGtZV
Speaking as someone that was going to conventions and talking to fans, Dr. Crusher was indeed missed.
"See, Wes, if you hunker down and work hard just like me, then some day when you are old and lonely you, too, will be able to play whole seasons of Strat-o-matic Baseball in your head using players who lived and died 400 years ago." -- Dr. Stubbs
I will say: only watch the teasers after the episode. I don't remember if you mentioned you watched it after but... TNG teasers spoil A LOT. Seriously, they're fun to watch afterwards, but they're not going to get you hyped, and they will ruin some of the surprises in episodes.
How can you not get hyped for "Staaaaaarrrrr Trek, TheNextGeneration"?
See Wes dont be a square your whole life or you'll turn out like Dr Stubbs here
IIRC Crusher was not a part of season 2 due to one of the producers at the time. Not because of anything Gates McFadden did with the work she was given.
She says Hurley "fired" her because she complained about the way some of the female cast/crew had been treated by the production management.
Diana Muldaur was offered main cast status but didn’t want to commit to a regular series as she was still being offered other roles. So she preferred to be a special guest. The producers wanted a regular in the doctors role; Patrick Stewart lobbied both the producers and Gates McFadden until she agreed to come back. By season 3 the production team member that didn’t like Gates had gone. Season 3 is the point where the core cast had developed a close friendship and were acting more like a theatre group than a TV cast. Key to that was Patrick Stewart dropping his serious actor attitude to have fun with the others (instigated by Frakes and Sirtis). No spoilers, the acting quality from S3 from the cast is stellar as they all learned from each other and suggested changes to scenes to improve them.
...and even started directing episodes themselves!
About the format - yes the uncut and spontaneous approach as an exclusive for Patrons makes sense. I assume it also might speed up the time between filming and uploading which is good for us.
In my opinion, starting at season 3 the overall quality of each episode is consistently better. The "bad" episodes feel less bad than 1 and 2 "bad" episodes. HOWEVER, I don't think the season gets the GREAT episodes until mid-season on. That's why everyone is voting for mid to later season 3 episodes to watch live. In my opinion.
That's my take...although there are a few episodes this season I personally feel are worse than this.
Great idea to watch the teaser and comment 👍
This might be a spoiler but I think you're going to like this season a lot more than the last two and I think you're going to see why people piss on the first two seasons so heavily. They aren't really that bad, the last five are that good.
nanites at the time were basically theoretical. Now a real field though, called nanobots.
LOL wait till the rest of the season openers LOL.
I think Stubbs would have been *much* more effective a character if he'd been played or written way more likable, I think he was supposed to be the 'brilliant asshole' type, but they didn't let him be brilliant. Instead we just got the asshole part. I mean they could have let him have a noble moment or contribute to solving the problem, or something.
I personally thought the actor himself did fine with what he was given. But I agree they could have had the same overall plot elements and had him be a bit more sympathetic.
Patrick Stewart had to call Gates McFadden to convince her to come back,she wasn’t sure she would be welcomed back
Right. Rick Berman (who was the one who had told her she was fired in the first place, although it was Maurice Hurley's decision) made the first call, Patrick Stewart made the second call.
Did you guys notice that the show is shot a little brighter as well? Seasons 1 and 2 were a little darker.
New director of photographer for season 3. The best change is that they fixed the bridge lighting and didn't have to resort to sticking black cardboard to the reflective panels anymore.
Denise Crosby (Tasha Yar) made a good point about Pulaski. She said there was plenty of room for two doctors on a ship of 1,000 people - one tending to do the away missions and another more of a research / complex case doctor. Opens up opportunity for tensions on arguing over the best course of treatment, someone to treat a severely injured doctor, and there have been loads of times when one doctor has been more or less stumped by an issue even in The Naked Now. It’s not like Pulaski had much screen time anyway.
Of course, without saying too much, there are other doctors on the Enterprise, but only the CMO is part of the main cast.
Love your discussions, it's fun that you guys enjoy this favorite show so much like we do, also the longer unedited is great.
If you want to know more about the first couple of seasons watch Shatner's documentary called Chaos on the Bridge about the first seasons of TNG. I haven't seen it in years so I can't remember if there are spoilers beyond season 2. Maybe someone else can chime in on that but you will see the how and why that they got to keep going and how the quality seemed to get better on a more consistent basis starting with season 3.
They’re aware of this but it does have spoilers so will not watch for now
Don't forget that back in the day, they didn't really make a big deal out of "season premieres". Usually, the most you got was an ad telling you the show is back after the summer. Very few season finales were made a big deal either. The first real one like that was the famous Dallas "Who Shot J.R.?" cliffhanger and resolution. Once we starting getting into the '90s shows started more and more to make some excited finales to keep you coming back.
Yup, there was only a 2 month gap between Shades of Gray and Evolution, which is nothing these days. Usually it's 4 months, but the show had a late finish in season 2 due to the strikes. Then the show goes on hiatus for the holidays, and with re-runs, it feels like the show goes all year round.
At the time seasons 1 and 2 were not badly received. Lots of negativity from TOS fans early on, but TNG became popular. I think over time as the later seasons had more hits than misses it became a consensus that 1 and 2 are not as good.
Thats not my memories at all. Pre TNG airing, there was a lot of negative fan comments about the lack of any direct connection to TOS. Their was also a lot of negativity not eh lack of any real known actors on the show (LeVar and Will being the only two actors that had any real exposure, but in both cases LeVar's is primarily from one role, as was Wesley. Nothing to see a consistency of ability. When TNG started yes it was popular, but it also dropped rather quickly a good chunk of its audience and continued to decline overall through the end of tis 2nd season. And yes even with that decline TNG was a financial success, just not a massive hit. Now to also be fair there was still an excitement to having new Trek as many a fan was still desperate to have original weekly Trek for the first real time since the end of 69. So seeing weekly Trek was still a welcome treat, even with those that were really critical of the show (myself included). In comparison During later stages of Berman's Run or the Streaming period today. I wouldn't stick with a show just because I loved (Trek) if I thought the quality was the same level of was getting in seasons 1 and 2 (well really 2, as season 1 gave enough us a few episodes of absolutely real quality, giving us hope that more was to come, and in general the writing even of its style was getting better). The usenet forums on Trek weren't full of glowing praise. The SOS that tracked fan rankings of episodes as they aired were typically low. Professional reviews of the day (when some episodes would get them, weren't glowing). Those are all real time reflections of peoples interactions with the program. From viewer engagement (ie ratings) no those fans that posted opinions on the internet of the day, That wasn't in hindsight view that the first two seasons were weak. It was real time opinions that the shows were weak. Ratings for season three stabilized the decline in ratings from the first two season, and showed the start of average ratings growth (the general pattern for most shows is decline over the years, shows that have managed to grab an audience for whatever reasons are viewed as being more successfully contacting to their audience). That ratings change continues through the next three seasons, before it beings its decline. I keep ratings and short reviews myself of shows as they aired, which started as a college thing. And my ratings for those years hasn't changed much (plus or minus), over the decades .
The return of Dr. Crusher wasn't THAT big a deal back in the day. Today it's seen as a bigger deal in retrospect.
It was a reasonably big deal in fandom, and in the sci-fi mags. I will say I don’t think Crusher was a big deal with fans until she was no longer there. Kind of a “don’t know what you’ve got ‘til it’s gone” situation.
So excited for you guys to watch the episode quality quickly ramp up to near perfection by mid season!
Anyone else finding the video quality a bit rough on this one?
We’re working on it
Love the teaser react at the top, but I just love the teaser in general. Kinda miss the Patron takes shown on screen!
They’ll still be in the YouTube version.
Thursdays are quite interesting now, with Discovery Season 5 and TA's TNG Season 3 coming out a few hours apart.
I don't know of this "Discovery" of which you speak.
Dr. Crusher was out in season two because producer Maurice Hurley hated Gates McFadden. Hurley was gone for season three, and McFadden was immediately invited back. A few years later, Diana Muldaur was surprise-eliminted from LA Law, making two series in a row.
This episode more of a Gates McFadden return to the series and re-establishing her relationship with Wesley. The look of the show was obviously kicked up a bit and they definitely could have brought B Crusher in before ruining it in the credits.
I like Bev in theory.. she can feel kind of useless or misused. But I enjoy your guys enthusiasm for the character! She’s mostly there to be the bleeding heart while Picard is like “Not now Doctor.” I think in some ways Pulaski succeeded because she was up in everyone’s business wether they needed a doctor or not she was ready to be the Bones!
I think this is one of the fascinating things about watching your reactions. When I first watched this at the premiere, nothing like this story existed. There wasn't a mainstream nanite concept - at all. This was a blending on Von Neumann spacecraft and the microscopic level. Now, this concept doesn't seem as novel as it did when this first aired. But I really loved this whole idea and so the idea carried this episode for me in a way it clearly didn't for you.
I think its fair to say that, maybe not always, if the episode is "tech" or "space battle" related, it's not going to be as interesting to them as something that deals in character drama or exploring a more interpersonal conflict. Which is why... Certain much beloved episodes to come may not land as hard for the guys as some people are hoping they will, and other lesser appreciated ones may be their favorites. It all comes down to a matter of taste, methinks. I've always had a soft spot for this episode, though I do agree that if there is a weak link here it is Stubbs.
Michael Piller would become to TNG what Gene Coon was for TOS.
This was actually shot as the second episode of the season but was chosen as the season opener.
Too bad. Imagine their shock seeing Beverly out of nowhere in the opener of the next episode if that was the premiere.
Did you guys ever watch "Scrubs"? Ken Jenkins played Dr Bob Kelso, the hospital administrator.
No
https://i.imgur.com/tR9bYmQ.png "We Saw You From Across the Bar and Really Dig Your Vibe"
The new uniforms are a gabardine two-piece, with a seperate top and pants. The old uniforms were a lycra-spandex jumpsuit. The old ones had a simple round crew-neck collar and coloured piping on the black shoulder yoke. The new ones have a raised neckline similar to a Nehru-collar and the piping has moved from the shoulders to the neck.
Still a few more episodes to go for the finalized uniform. For the first 6-8 episodes of season 3, the uniforms were wool with odd-looking seams on the front of the tunic. The actors could barely move in them, so they were redesigned yet again. First with Patrick, and then the rest of the cast a couple episodes later.
You hit the nail on the head, Josh: the chemistry among the cast was so key and it really jelled over the course of the first 2 to 3 seasons. That was a huge part as to why this show became so popular as time went on.
The new uniforms make it easier to go to the bathroom. Now, if only they had fuckin bathrooms. 😱
Hahahahaha! Nice.
If you ever watched "Honey, I Shrunk The Kids", the girl Wesley walks into Ten Forward with was the daughter in that film
Syndication covers a multitude of sins. The audience generally built up as the show continued and writing got better. Also, the fairly new Fox network was craving any programming their stations could get their hands on to fill time slots throughout the week, and so cities that had Fox stations at the time were typically where Star Trek: TNG could be found. And so, there was definite interest in keeping the show going. It aired on other stations in smaller markets.
Yeah, if this had been on a network, like TOS, it likely would have had trouble staying on the air after the first two seasons.