FULL DISCUSSION - Star Trek S2E18 - Up the Long Ladder

Sincw you asked, I LOVE the discussion videos. I also liked it when they were part of the reaction video but I often (though not exclusively) watch them when they're released the next day on YouTube and I really enjoy knowing that there will be another piece to arrive in a day when I do that (when I'm too stoked to see what you have to say - like with this one - I jump right to Patron though). I definitely enjoy you engaging in a deeper conversation about what you saw and also discussing Patron comments. Its one of the things that sets your channel apart from many other reactors who just tap out a minute or two after their reaction is over.

the author made it clear that was a pro-choice line, though the show did get flack for just straight up killing the clones with no discussion or arguement

Again, everyone's said this, but its basically a different show starting with season 3 where there barely any bad epiodes

The one thing the sex scene did was establish the irish woman was not sexually coinservative, as the end implied the polyamorous marriages were something every one was ok with it. This was originally supposed to be as story abour immigration, but the author admits that got lost in rewrites and budet saving. DS9 does a somewhat similar episode featuring immigration that is done much better (but DS9 is the best of treks, though heavily depends on the world building of the previous two)

From “The Fifty-Year Mission: The Next 25 Years: From The Next Generation to J. J. Abrams: The Complete, Uncensored, and Unauthorized Oral History of Star Trek” by MARK A. ALTMAN and EDWARD GROSS RONALD D. MOORE (producer, Star Trek: The Next Generation) “The second season was pretty shaky. I didn't think it was a rip-off as much as I thought it didn't quite know what it wanted to be. It seemed to lack focus and coherent storytelling. And there were episodes I hated. That episode with the Irish, "Up the Long Ladder," I loathed. I remember feeling like the show didn't know what it was. I was afraid it was going to get can-celed, because I thought it was kind of weak, but it didn't, obviously, and kept chugging along. I was looking forward to it getting better. The first two seasons are kind of unwatchable.”

The discussions + patreon takes is my favorite part of this channel. Please don't stop doing them especially now, because come season 3 there are a ton of episodes that you could spend hours talking about.

The space irish episode reaction is landing suspiciously close to Saint Patrick's Day...

Wasn’t Pulaski‘s excuse for wharf, just as embarrassing as fainting? I mean, it practically is still fainting just for different reasons..

Oh Josh, I think you'd really Like Lorerunner's TNG videos he goes over the production process & reviews every episode

Absolutely keep the discussion videos. I love your reactions, but the discussions even moreso. I like hearing yours and the patrons views on the characters, the world-building, and all the behind the scenes stuff. Also, I'm kinda glad these last few season 2 stories are mediocre at best...it'll make ST 5: The Final Frontier seem much more paletable by comparison.

A couple days ago at work I finished listening to an audio book in which about the last third takes place in Ireland in the late 1800s, with the reader doing a lot of Irish voices and dialects. The Irish voices here reminds me a lot of that book. The book also included spitting into the hand before shaking to seal a bargain, so...accuracy?

The discussion videos are good, but maybe a few more patron takes, especially on the divisive or meme-able episodes.

Crusher at ep 18 was way less interesting to me than Pulaski was. Season 2 has so many challenges bts so I think she did the best with her character's on-boarding that was possible. And unfortunately in this crap episode she does shine. NONSPOILER ahead: One thing I noticed when rewatching Season 2 of TNG with you is that compared to ALL of Trek after 2005 is there are never words like "anachronistic" or "hegemony" or ''cogent" anywhere in their writing. The narratives are simpler and easier to follow and not written by accomplished authors or science-fiction professionals. As terrible as this episode is, it's still smarter than what passes as Star Trek today imo.

The discussion videos can be as long and detailed as you choose, just ten minutes for an episode like this, but please keep them. There will be episodes to come which require deep analysis.

Geez guys will you let poor Riker get a little

Please never stop doing the discussion videos, I have seen the episodes so many times and seeing you react to them is great but I think the real "meat and potatoes" so to speak come from your discussions. They give you the ability to draw out your thoughts and ideas about or inspired by the episodes that you can't really do while watching and reacting (lest everyone criticize you for talking over dialogue lol).

I just realized there is a neat Picard season 2 tie in with this episode

The sex with Riker was just like Okona having casual sex with random crew members …just showing how not prudish they are in the 24th century

I’m surprised you guys didnt like it this much. Its not the best episode but its far from the worst

While "Up The Long Ladder" isn't the greatest episode in fact in this season its one i usually skip as i have favorite episodes in each season like The Measure Of A Man, A Matter of Honor and Episode 21. I rewatch all of my least favorite episodes for yall because its interesting to get different perspective on them. I love these discussions because its interesting to get yalls thoughts on em and to see what the other viewers have to say. Keep up the awesome job guys i cant wait for yall to get to Star Trek Voyager (one of my personal favs) i know it will be awhile before that series starts up i am looking forward to reviewing star trek in its entirety.

The Irish sounding music makes me shudder and expect Finnegan to turn up and fight Kirk again

it seems the more 'traditional people' here are supposed to be the irish while the more 'sophisticated' are british who look down upon them

Look, I'm not going to die on the hill of defending "Up the Long Ladder" but... the idea that the two groups belonged in two different episodes defeats the entire purpose. They're supposed to be complete opposites who complete one another. I agree that it's a bit jarring as far as tone and esthetic for the episode. The other point about the women not being given a choice... They were given a choice. Picard said anyone who wasn't willing to go along could be dropped off and have whatever life they want. As wild as the idea of being in medically mandated polygamous relationship is, the episode can't be knocked for not giving a choice when there was indeed a choice given. Are the separate discussion videos at risk of going away? I'm sorry to hear that. If you do go back to single video format, I hope the length of the discussion stays just as long. I like that they're as meaty as they are

As to whether you keep this separate discussion format or add it back into the reaction videos, I am sorry I won't be much help. I honestly don't care and am fine with either format. I just don't want to see either one go away completely.

This episode is garbage. There's an interesting commentary on rights and cloning, but its all undone by everything else which is done so terribly.

You're witnessing the cluster-f**k that was the writing room for this and all other TV shows back in 1988-1989, right up to the end of the season, due in no small part to the writer's strike at the time. Some big hits, but some big misses, too. Can't hit a homerun all the time, even in the later seasons. This is also a big part why many fans (including me) don't like the first 2 seasons as much as the rest of the series. A) they had to find their footing, and B) the writing was more uneven compared to later seasons.

The discussion take videos are exactly what I mean when I mention the value we're getting from you guys, so I beseech you, keep doing them.

These discussions are my favorite part. I think you guys are great at tossing ideas back-and-forth.

Melinda Snodgrass later related why this entire thing happened: "It was intended to be a commentary about immigration, because I hate the current American policy. I wanted it to be something that says sometimes those outsiders you think are so smelly and wrong-colored, can bring enormous benefits to your society because they bring life and energy. That's what I was going for. Now my boss, at the time, was Maury Hurley, who is a major Irishman and leads the Saint Patrick's Day parade. When I was describing to him what I wanted to do, I was trying to come up with an analogy, and I said it was like a little village of Irish tinkerers, and he loved it so much he made me make them Irish tinkerers. I said okay, and that's how it came about."

“It may be the worst Star Trek episode I’ve ever seen in my life”. Yes. It certainly was the worst I’ve seen on so many levels. You are right the clone stuff was a heavy handed abortion reference. Like a big car bumper sticker and with the same depth. This is Star Trek. Wouldn’t their at least be discussion of whether or not this indeed life? Is it independent of Riker, despite the wrongness of taking his genes to make it? Is it just undeveloped genetic material? They can end up at the same point but given the way trek is, wouldn’t they consider it? Think of the depth of “a measure of man”. But like the rest of the episode the writing was shallow and they didn’t apparently have time to take any of the ideas and give them depth and connection. The clone issues could have made a good episode with a lot of depth, a lot of “make you think”. But nope. Just more undeveloped ideas badly tossed in a script salad. Interesting themes? Yes, but badly and superficially handled.

yes, continue the after reaction reaction discussion.

Love the discussion videos. Please keep them up

Danger: Up the Long Ladder may be hazardous to your health. Wear safety glasses.

You guys, Josh and Alex, are CRAZY. This was a fun episode. You guys need to lighten up! lol

We have to assume that ALL were given the choice to decide (Freewill) I agree the convos with Pulaski and Worf are character building and great! Only Melinda knows exactly what she was trying to get over... (Abortion/Cloning etc.) This aint the worst episode of season 2.... Keep doing these discussions, I love them.

I think the point of Riker and the woman hooking up is the fact he just freely gave away his DNA without hesitation, possibly impregnating her, but then flips out at the idea of being cloned. His genes may end up part of this society after all.

My best attempt to tie the Worf Is Sick scenes into the rest of the plot: Worf is struck down by a disease -- a biological issue which, if untreated, might prove debilitating. Similarly, the Mariposa Colony's replacative fading is essentially a biological issue (you can only stretch a cell so far) which, if untreated, would eventually prove fatal to them. Worf is offended to have been brought low by something as unsophisticated as an illness typically only contracted by children, just as the Mariposians are disturbed at the prospect of introducing the relatively unsophisticated Bringloidi into their society. The tea ceremony highlights that, with proper preparation, appreciation and caution the blending and sharing of cultures can enrich the experience of all involved. It's a bit of a stretch but it's possible without getting too twisty.

I always watch the discussion videos and I always appreciate the mixture of humour and insight you both provide.

The part of the script they cut should explain all of this: Worf and Pulaski trip absolute balls after drinking the poisoned tea, and the entire episode is all in their head...

The separate Discussion videos are absolutely necessary. Summing up what you think the moment it stops airing versus time to consider those feelings is very important to a full analysis. I think you two shouldn't second-guess yourselves so much. I understand tweaking trying to find the right mix of what you want and what you think the audience wants. But, you're about to be three seasons into your second Star Trek series. You're there, man. Get comfortable and lock in the format that floats your boat. Your true "target audience" is here for what you got. : )

Regarding the format, when you switched from 1 video per episode to 2, I was skeptical, but I actually really like the format. There's so much to discuss that tagging it onto the end of the reaction can make those videos bloated. Having a separate discussion video gives it space which I love. Hope you keep going with this structure!

Regarding this episode, I feel like this is one of several episodes Star Trek does that deal with a theme of rural simplicity vs advanced technology. I just wish they had more to say about the contrast. Often it feels more like the writers are wishing for a long vacation or fewer responsibilities rather than actually interrogating the pros and cons of technology-lite vs technology-rich living.

"Anachronistic" means to be outside of its time or place. Like, a horse-drawn buggy on a highway in 2024 would be anachronistic to us.

Pulaski saying the solution is “breeding stock” always gives me the creeps. Dr. Crusher would not have used such dehumanizing terminology.

This is one of my all-time favorite episodes! Pulaski is the prime mover of the story!

20:55 I watch all of your uncut TNG reactions and discussion videos. It's why I'm here!

19:00 The ship founded two colonies. The salt-of-the-earth colony got off first, and then the ship went half a light year away and crashed when landing the technological/scientist colony (the planet that became called Mariposa).

I've heard the abortion comparison for this episode, but I never considered how much it contradicts the ending. I guess it leaves people on both sides of the debate dissatisfied.

18:04 You guys surprised me again! I thought you'd enjoy this one a lot more, like I do. Stories that are not completely predictable are a good thing, to me.

11:02 They're both the same species—human. I am sure you meant two different cultures. Brenna Odell was protesting that it's always the women that have to do all the work of birthing and raising the children. But she likes men and she likes sex, so she's ready for her next man after Riker. (LOL!) ...showing that she doesn't have quite the "moral" high ground over her father she likes to pretend she does.

Best thing to come out of this is Gene, Michael Dorn, and another guy singing together in the TNG outtakes: https://youtu.be/4NOM-kLfDR8?si=igZ-K6-kmrVN2lk2&t=111

4:00 Sounds pretty ideal in some circles. LOL!

1:16 I think the fact the episode pivoted several times is actually a GOOD thing! Wanton predictability is boring.

The abortion metaphor with the clones is indeed obvious, but I find it very clumsy. The clone is gestating in a machine and not being a burden on anyone, and Riker's only motive for killing it is that he's offended by its very existence. Not exactly the most compelling metaphor if the intent is a pro-choice message.

I don't care. I enjoy this episode. Nothing too crazy going on, just a chill ethical dilemma. I only hate a few episodes out of the whole series, but this one I think is fun. The moment where the guy drinks Warf's Klingon booze always makes me laugh. Is it the best episode ever? No. But I think it's far from the worst.

The expressions on your faces say it all!

The 16th worst episode, according to IMDB. Looked at the production history and says it was meant to be a pro-immigration allegory but it got lost in rewrites. Re: discussions, I watch every time. Reactions only when I think there'll be some value there.

We get an Irish focused episode and they go and make poor Colm Meaney stand around and watch like a black man viewing a minstrel show. This one ranks up there with "Code of honor" as something that feels like was made 30 years past socially acceptable, even in 1988.

keep doing the discussions for sure. I have seen TNG so many times that I don't watch the full reactions to many episodes unless that episode is on my list of 'rewatch every time' or if there's a moment I am curious to see your reaction to. For me, the discussions and arguments with other Trekkies about the last episode is a big part of my personal nostalgia with Star Trek, so I value these posts.

Today’s generations usually don’t appreciate the history and depth of Irish racism. I remember up to the early 90s in seaside guest house hotels, you’d (occasionally) still see a card in the window with “No Black, No Irish, No Dogs”. For a few years after that it was just “No Irish, No Dogs”, as if we were now progressive. Just this year, Britain’s biggest holiday park chain (Pontins) was found to blacklist group bookings from Irish surnames, routinely refusing telephone bookings and cancelling online bookings. That was targeted at the Irish Traveller community. All the way back to the 12th century when Ireland was part of Britain, official accounts described them as lazy, barbarous, and who had filthy practices. Then a few centuries ago, Thomas Carlyle wrote that Irish live in squalor and unreason, falsity and drunk violence, causing degradation and disorder. Victorian drawings sometimes depicted the Irish as somewhat ape like. In the 70s, Chair of Cambridge University Union did an interview in the US, stating that too many Irish in the US was a problem and “they don’t behave like the English”. Repeating this “British are civilised, Irish are uncivilised” trope. In the late 70s, The Sunday Times wrote (of Ireland) “The notorious problem is how a civilised country can overpower uncivilised people without becoming less civilised in the process.” In 1999, former British Prime Minister said “you can’t trust the Irish; they are all liars” In 2016 a Conservative councillor tweeted “You can keep your fucking gypsies!” when Ireland didn’t give us any points in the Eurovision Song Contest. So, this episode is grossly insensitive and derogatory to the Irish people. That said, there is a later TNG episode that has been banned from Irish TV (in its unedited form) since it was aired. No spoilers, except to say you probably won’t notice it and I doubt it was intentionally offensive, unlike this episode.