EXCLUSIVE EPISODE: Azula vs. Katara and the Power of Choice in Avatar: The Last Airbender

I love that look on Zuko’s face when Katara stops the rain and realises that she has been going easy on him. He’s like “I could have been dead so many times over.” 🤣

I would love to see a full family therapy episode for Zuko, Azula, and their parents. I think Azula's mother did love her, but I also think she gave up on her: she saw her troubling tendencies, which I do believe Azula was born with, and she saw how easy it was for Azula to gain her father's approval, and she decided to devote all of her outward affection and protection to Zuko because she felt he needed it more. As a result Azula didn't feel that unconditional love, whether it was there or not, and had truly no one to help her direct those impulses into a positive direction; she could've been a great sibling and friend, but the only figure she had to guide her was Ozai. She's just as much a victim of his abuse as Zuko, just in a different way, and a way where she became a perpetrator of it as well.

I can actually find some good in blood bending... Could you imagine how much good could actually be don it you could staunch bleeding? You can turn what is totally dark as first glance to something a paramedic would actually like to have at their disposal... The lives that could be saved when you actually think about it. Blood bending is not inherently bad and can be used for good.

This was fantastic! And holy crap please watch Legend of Korra! It's like; same same, but different. 😅 Really good though and I think you both will enjoy it overall.

Hey guys. Here as your yearly reminder that I would love to see another avatar episode. Can’t wait for you two to watch Korra, despite its “flaws”

Im everything worked out but I wish they talked about how helping can sometimes do bad during the part Katara destroyed the fire nation factory. Because in real life theres no fixing something like that.

I know this comment is SO late, that moment when Katara calls Toph pretty is so beautiful to me. I've never been the most conventionally attractive woman, and didn't find my own stride for how I physically presented myself until I was prepping for college. I wasn't usually bothered by this, but around 16, when a girl I was friends with SO genuinely and unprompted called me beautiful, it was so impactful. I thought about it for like three straight days, and obviously still recall and reflect on it today. Girls supporting girls - especially those who might "hang with the boys" a little more, can be so impactful.

Actually, I'm not sure Ozai would have only scolded Zuko if he'd spoken out in private. Yes, it was an act of disrespect in front of the war council, But Ozai considered Zuko's protest to be one of weakness. He's advocating against needless violence. Azula is advocating for it, which is acceptable. Her defiance is one that he can tolerate because it's still in service of what he considers strength.

Fun fact about the mouth foaming guy: He is Suki's Ex

Okay fine- I'll rewatch ALAB 😅😂

Yes! To all of this! BUT ALSO Another thing to point out is that Azula watched what happened to Zuko. So, not only is she being praised for certain behaviors by a person who models those behaviors (and like Alan and Jono said, she actually is a prodigy and some of her narcissism stems from that skill and the praise she received for that), she also has a vicious reminder of what NOT being on the pedestal looks like. Like, she can want her mother's love all day long, but having Ursa's love didn't prevent Zuko's public burning and banishment. They ended the video by saying that Katara made different choices than Azula, but that's assuming that Azula had the opportunity to make them or had the choices in the first place. Zuko could change because he was safe on a ship far away where Ozai didn't care (not that Zuko knew that until way later but that's not the point). Azula, the prodigy and heir can't just say f this–he would definitely want her back in line. So, she's being conditioned for x behavior, and if she doesn't follow along then her face gets burned off. That's not much of a choice. (I do also wish Alan and Jono had gone more into their similarities but I get that that wasn't the point of the video per se)

This might be a little long winded but I think that there are some things that are being overlooked about azula’s parental figures that are jading your perspective of her “nature”. We mostly only see Ursa in flashbacks from Zuko’s perspective but even in those flashbacks Ursa isn’t showing Azula the same unconditional love that she shows Zuko and this is because it’s easier for Ursa to parent Zuko than Azula. As a reminder Azula is 2 years younger than Zuko. So in that flashback where young Azula is shown to be very cruel and callous she’s only about ~8 years old. At such a young age, Ursa shouldn’t be questioning “what is wrong with my child” the question should be “where am I failing as a parent to this child”. Zuko and Azula both had one parent who praised them and one parent who was disappointed in them. The dichotomy between the two characters stems on which parent they received praise from. Ursa shows Zuko love & praise, which causes for Zuko to value kindness and compassion since that’s what Ursa values. Ozai shows Azula affection & praise which causes Azula to value power and cruelty because that’s what Ozai values. I know in the beach scene Azula is making a joke about Ursa thinking she’s a monster but truthfully her mothers rejection really hurts her. We can see that in the finale when she envisions her mother during her mental breakdown. Her mother is a figment of azula’s imagination in that scene. But even in her own imagination azula can’t accept a reality where her mother might actually love her, and it’s why she breaks the mirror and calls her mother a liar. Now I’m not saying that Ursa didn’t love azula but she clearly wasn’t able to convey her love in a way that resonated with Azula especially since even at 14 Azula can’t fathom the idea or belief that her mother loved her. Part of parenting is adapting to each child’s needs. Ursa was able to show love to Zuko because he was very compassionate at a young age. Truthfully the main reason Zuko is more compassionate is because the negative and cruel influence within the household (Ozai) doesn’t take as much as an interest in Zuko so he is mostly influenced by Ursa. Azula starting to show cruelty at a young age and Ursa while reprimands Azula is just repeating the sentiments of Ozai. Ozai talked about Iroh being weak and how he should be the next firelord instead of Iroh. When Azula repeats this messaging Ursa scolds her for it but the real problem is Ozai, not Azula. Azula at a young and impressionable age can only see that her mother hates her for the things her father loves about her. One of the reasons that leads to Azula becoming this horrible person is because Azula starts to only value Ozai because he’s the parent that shows her tangible affection. In that quest she starts to only value the things that Ozai values, and she builds her relationships with people in the same way. Despite Ozai being the only parent that Azula thinks loves her that relationship is also built on fear. She proceeds to build her friendships the same way, with fear. It’s why it’s so hard for her when ty lee & mai “betray” her because in her mind fear and love go hand in hand. If we only view Ursa as a mother through Zukos perspective then yes she was this perfect mother who showed unconditional love. But the reality is Ursa was married to a horrible and cruel person and unfortunately due to those circumstances she only really could intervene on Zuko’s behalf because he was already being rejected by Ozai. However, in doing so it meant that she gave up on trying to protect Azula because it would mean defying Ozai. Which unfortunately led to Azula becoming just like her father. I think it’s easy to just chalk up Azula to being evil by nature but the message that ATLA always tries to convey is that you’re never one thing and who you are can be influenced and changed. I think it’s unfair to acknowledge how Ozai left Zuko broken without also acknowledging that both Ozai AND Ursa left Azula broken.

I love Korra!! You got to do a Korra episode. Please

you guys need to do a couples therapy on aang and katara.

I think it's important to remember that Azula was 14 YEARS OLD by the end of the series! She was LITERALLY a child! I agree so much w what Jono said about Azula not loving herself. But I'd add that the love she has for herself was conditional. She was raised in a culture and household that had very strict and very high expectations. She was lucky enough to always meet or exceed those expectations, but even when you're a prodigy, you eventually fail. Her breakdown at failing shows how self-love can't be conditional because you can't guarantee that you'll always meet those conditions

I loved you guys failing all over the place at the end 🤣 Thanks for leaving that in

This was amazing, thank you for this! Would've loved to see their reactions to the comics since Azula goes all over the place there. She goes even further off the deep end, then ends up supporting Zuko while also wanting to mold him, and even goes through a bit of a redeeming experience in the spirit temple issueand grows as a person.

This just reminds me of Sirius Black talking to Harry and saying there’s light and dark in all of us, what matters is the part we choose to act on. You guys are amazing! Combining my two favorite things, cinema and psychology.

Something that’s so great about this show is that even as a child watching this seeing Azusa hurt made me sad. I always remember being really sad during that fight and I never really understood why till I got older but it’s so incredible that they got these messages across to us even as kids we understood on some level what was going on. The beach episode was one that always made me think of my own childhood some of the score brings back memories that make me emotional because of how happy they were. This show is amazinf

This episode helped me understand my mother better. She treated me good but I never felt at ease with her. Turns out, when I got older, I actually understood how manipulative it was and why I never felt her love fully. It was performative, cause it always came with a condition. My father on the other hand, loved me unconditionally, even through his mistakes, I always felt at ease with him. Tho my relationship with my mother is still not the best, I now see that she was hurting... She didn't love herself and she protected herself through her manipulations. I still dont know how to sit with this, but I believe seeing this is a start haha May this help me heal things through with her over time. Thanks for the great work again <3

Watching this and seeing y’all talk about these characters’ upbringings made me wonder — what would have happened if Katara and Azula had been born into opposite circumstances? I think Katara born into Azula’s family would have turned out like a hybrid between Azula and Zuko — having an inherent level of compassion that makes it difficult to fit into her family mold like Zuko, but being naturally talented and likable such that she probably would have ended up alright-ish. Azula born into Katara’s family probably would still be an overachiever and have a bit of a bratty streak, but I think it’s something that would not have been fostered so heavily by those around her, such that she likely would have mostly grown out of it, so more like Toph honestly.

I grew up with a terrible and narcissistic father and I feel seeing azula as a child helped me see that dad isn't always right cuz when his right hurts others it's wrong 😭

Azula's breakdown after Katara defeats her is legitimately hard to watch. She is just a kid, but she's so broken and hurt. And while there was certainly some nature in there, there's also a crap ton of nurture, where her father actively fostered her worst impulses. She didn't get there on her own, and seeing the result of all that anger and abuse finally leading to a helpless primal scream... it's hard to see.

Wow this video really made me appreciate how clever the writers of this show were. They wrote so many parallels between Zuko and Aang that were the backbone of the story, but I didn't even realize just how many parallels there were between Azula and Katara. I absolutely love when Jono mentioned the Dumbledore line about how it's our choices that define us not our abilities. I think what Jono was saying also about how this show addresses the theme of nature vs. nurture came back in S3E6 "The Avatar and the Firelord." Toph's line where she says "It's like these people were born bad!" and Aang's rebuttal about how that's not true and how it boils down to choice can be applied to Azula and Katara as well.

Man I really need to start watching Avatar.

I think the difference is also learning from models. Katara is born into a family where people care for each other. Azula gets some love from her mom, but her family members betray each other all the time and plot against each other. She witnesses assassination plans and intrigues and adapts to her environment perfectly. By being excluded from the clan, Iroh and later Zuko have a chance to take a different path. It is not to imply that Azula is not to blame for her terrible choices, but I think we should really put her in this context. We should be aware of not only how we treat our kids, but also how we treat each other in front of them. A German joky proverb goes like: education of children is pointless. They become like their parents anyway. I think that is the problem with Ursa's influence on her kids.

Honestly kind of disagree with you guys’ point about Azula being born (at least partially) evil. Her mother didn’t physically abandon her, but she definitely did emotionally. I’m sure it was clear to her that her mother favored Zuko and thought she was a monster (more than in a look of concern way). I think Azula is a perfect example of what can happen when you don’t have ANY positive role models (Ursa, Iroh) who will help you and how you can adapt to be like your abusers when that’s all you see. It can shape you into a person you don’t like. A leading theory as to why she broke down in the end was because her friends mirrored what happened with her mother and she just couldn’t handle that abandonment again. It is so sad to think about and definitely makes me feel for her.

Korra was set to only be funded for one season (or something similar) so it takes a little longer to get going. Then it was funded for several seasons and then becomes another beautiful show that's unique all on its own. Same folks did The Dragon Prince on Netflix (still being made) that is ALSO fantastic, in a completely different world but with some nods to ATLA in the jokes. (They share at least one voice actor)

Thank you so much for all the ATLA episodes!! I love the deep dives into the characters and the discussion of what makes this such an incredible show. I hope you do watch Korra! It’s polarizing among Avatar fans, and I’ll admit that I really didn’t care for it at first — but I have totally grown to love it. Seasons 3 and 4 especially offer a surprisingly realistic portrayal of post-traumatic stress; and as someone who’s spent the last several years working on healing from trauma, Korra’s breakthrough into healing is one of the most cathartic things I’ve ever watched. LoK definitely has its flaws, but it’s worth watching!

Also, thank you so much for doing all these AtLA episodes when your main focus is movies. AtLA is just so good, it deserves the attention of you two wonderful guys.

There are so, so, SO many things to admire and love in AtLA. One of the absolute best, imho, is in "The Southern Raiders" how Katara does *not* forgive the man who killed her mother. That episode, in a show for kids, has one of the most mature and sophisticated demonstrations of what forgiveness is and is not. It is a choice, but it's not a switch one throws and suddenly, poof! Insta-forgiveness! Forgiveness does not magically wipe out all the hurt and pain and broken trust. It's a choice to undertake a process of healing, and creating a new relationship, based in part on the reality that one person was hurt and another person committed the hurt. Her turning to Zuko and saying, "but I think I *am* ready to forgive you" is so powerful and moving because we've seen the process, and we've seen how the moment is *earned*, by the characters and by the writers of the show. And it gets more weight, I think, from Katara not forgiving the murderer but also choosing not to harm him. Not-forgiving does not automatically mean violence and vengeance. What a way to show kids (and any adults wise enough to be watching!) what maturity really looks like.

What a great new pair of ATLA episodes! 👂 Heard Alan say that you guys haven’t watched Legend of Korra, hope you guys do 😁 I liked it as a counterpart to Aang and his journey as Korra and Aang are on opposite paths (similar to Katniss and Lucy in Hunger Games franchise), and Korra encounters opposite issues in her journey. My son and I have hope for the live action ATLA since they got approved for seasons 2 and 3, that they can make it better; it’s been okay watching season 1. Thanks again for diving into this tv series! 📺

They could have chosen to make a Azula, a pure cartoon villain. Instead, they chose to give her dimension and a backstory of why she is the way she is. By the end, you still think what she does is awful, but you still feel horrible for her. I mean the pain she is feeling in that last episode. I have so much respect for the writers and animators, and sound designers, and artists who worked on the show.

I love how a "kid's show" nailed the powerful-woman-leader-who-distrusts-everyone-and-was-betrayed-by-her-most-trusted-close-ones-slowly-sliding-into-madness character arc way better than Game of Thrones did... Writing is everything.

So you're telling me that because Zuko confronted Ozai in his war room, instead of receiving a scolding he received a scalding.

Can you do a villains therapy for Azula?

Would you also say that Azula has Antisocial personality disorder?

The newer CMHC education books are pushing the epigenetic view to move on from the nature versus nurture dichotomy, and I feel like the comparison of the various siblings fits with that really well. I’m also now super motivated to finish the OG series because this was fantastic!

I'd like it if you would do more Videos about the Avatar characters because I really enjoy watching them. (also LOVE the series). About Azulas relationship with her mother I always thought the szene when Ursa says "What's wrong with that child" always sounded kind weird because she refers to Azula as "that child" and adding the word "wrong" does support what Azula said at the beach "My mother thought I was a monster". Addint to that the series makes it pretty clear that Ursa was a lot closer to Zuko. This doesn't mean that Ursa was a bad mother or she didn't like her. As Jono said she was concerned about her and loved her. But when Azula heard her mother asking this question to herself it makes sense that she thinks that way and got hurt. And because she did not get any approval from her mother or didn't have this closeness (compared to Zuko and Ursa) she was more focussed on her father who just saw her potential and her great skills as a firebender. (thats just my opinion added to the Azulas parents topic). Thanks for your Videos, I really enjoy them.

I disagree with the nature vs nurture argument in THIS video. Katara had 2 loving parents but one was murdered. Azula felt like her mother didn't actually love her and had a psychopath for a father who fueled her worst/sociopathic traits. Katara had + and + while Azula had + and -.

People acting like ursa was a perfect mother is ridiculous. Azula never thought her mother loved her and she decided to look up to ozai because of her talent got attention from him.

Azula is always looking for her father’s approval and not fail like zuko. Having to be perfect nobody is born a “monster “

16:33 A Homelander episode is a must! Maybe a compare and contrast between him and Billy.

You guys should definitely check out Michaelas Jill Murphy YouTube channel, she’s the voice of Toph and she does these episodes “Tea time with Toph” and brings out some of the cast to drink tea and watch ATLA 🤍

I just watched this with my dog appa🤍THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE AVATAR EPISODES 😭🤍🤍🤍

I think Azula has been trained to act like a narcissistic psychopath to fit in with the Fire Nation's classic fascist society, that values her extraordinary athletic skills as much as her apparent loathing of weakness and lack of human compassion; but seeing how badly it ultimately works for her, I wonder if it is just an act. For most people - anyone with a history of violence can tell you this - hurting people hurts you as well. (As you mention, people who treat others badly are never happier with themselves.) That's just to say at the end of the show I think it's entirely possible she's in a good place to begin learning to care about other people and become a healthy happy member of society

"Emotions just are" reminded me of a longer quote, which might even have come from you a year ago, I sometimes forget to source in my scrapbook where quotes that I like come from after all. "I can disagree with your words, I can disagree with your thinking, and I can disagree with your behaviour but there is really no way to disagree with an emotion because an emotion is just is."

Jono bitterly snarfing down PB Chocolate, a known comfort food for him, in popcorn form: "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!"

The thing I just noticed here, Azula's mother truly loved her but was worried. And when she starts to slip we see manifestations of her self worth in the form of her mother who saw her worth beyond the power.

This is maybe one of my favorite quotes from an anime, Death Note. I've seen how it can relate to many characters from different anime, and can extend to other shows like ATLA too. Azula mentions her mom thought of her as a monster, but later on she accepts the role of a monster. “There are many types of monsters that scare me: Monsters who cause trouble without showing themselves, monsters who abduct children, monsters who devour dreams, monsters who suck blood... and then, monsters who tell nothing but lies. Lying monsters are a real nuisance: They are much more cunning than others. They pose as humans even though they have no understanding of the human heart; they eat even though they've never experienced hunger; they study even though they have no interest in academics; they seek friendship even though they do not know how to love. If I were to encounter such monsters, I would likely be eaten by them... because in truth, I am that monster.” ― L

This is great! I hope you do more shows like this

This kind of content is exactly why I joined Patreon!

I absolutely loved this episode too! I have always loved the juxtaposition that this show plays on. It really shows you layers and layers of the laws of duality. The dichotomy between Aang/Zuko, Katari/Azula, and Iroh/Ozai are beautiful examples of moral/ethical extremes within a person and within interpersonal relationships. A great visual representation of "One must master themselves before they can master the Universe."

I love this episode, and it's one of the reasons I talked about the live action vs. this version on my podcast. Katara was such a flat nothing character in the live action. Azula had daddy issues for some reason. It's amazing how a live action that was meant to be "More mature" was somehow more childishly written. As an author in progress, this show is such a great example of character writing. And they massacred those stories in the live action. Thank you guys for the continued amazing content!

You guys talking about Avatar has become one of my favorite things

Beautiful thanks for another ATLA next one you should do Toph or sokka

Well gee, Alan, you've gone and made me cry for Azula. When you said she was sick, needed help, and she never got it and that her defeat is a tragedy, not a triumph...that just got me.

Two ATLA videos back to back, you guys are spoiling us! Thank you <3

Here are a great series of videos that dive into the psychology of characters like Azula and Zuko: https://youtu.be/R4544ZUr_gA?si=QtcEPmHktngv1pcZ https://youtu.be/oNOy6plGUCY?si=l0n_p7mt385g-lOi

Ah, the internet dads delivering yet another terrific episode! I know you mentioned Legends of Korra. I don't love it. I have not been able to finish the series, but I definitely have watched Avatar multiple times

I think Katara’s defining moment was the Southern Raiders episode. She could have gotten revenge as she stared her mother’s killer in the face, but she chose not to.

Reference from captain America. “A strong man who has know strength all their lives loses respect for that power. But a weak man loses value in strength and knows compassion.”

How dare you hit me with more Avatar content so soon after I’m recovering from Iroh! Azula’s raw power and fury is so intoxicating when you watch. That moment she’s chained up and it’s just throwing angry fire as far as she can, it’s like a force of the universe was chained up. She’s terrifying. While Katara is so powerful but is such a gentle person, always moving toward supporting and healing others. She just has a totally different view of life and her own place in the world. She’s not hungry for power and destruction the way Azula is. I think Azula is incredibly powerful, intelligent and talented; but all her worst qualities… of comparison and demeaning those who can’t compete, might makes right, cruelty is warranted when the target “deserves” it… these were all encouraged and reinforced from the time she was born. But also those things are not the same between Zuko and Azula, raised in the same home. There is something particular about Azula that made it so she can’t have a good moral center, because Zuko was able to receive and return genuine love to others in a way she seems unable to do. He has an openness to kindness and friendship, she only wants those who will serve her ego in the way she wants. She manipulates and controls others and it’s “something she’s born with” that made her take these lessons as truth instead of those that Zuko took to heart. It’s just such an interesting character study to me. I love it!! -Erin

Squee!! Another Avatar episode and some focus in Azula! I mean, Katara is awesome too of course, but Azula!!!

YES!!! More Avatar content. We are not worthy of this but please don’t stop lol