166 - Wicked

Listening to this at a later date but here’s my 2 cents: I honestly can’t remember whether I read the book or saw the musical first but certainly quite close together which ever way it was. Now I am very fond of wicked so that might be biasing me, but I found it really interesting in terms of what you guys thought the plot gaps were becuase I never really noticed them in the musical- but I’m wondering if that’s cos I’d read the book? I did see it several times so could also be that tbh. I also never took the ending as they lived happily ever after, I always read it as a did she die maybe she did maybe she didn’t- but I’m wondering now if there might be minor staging differences between the broadway show and London show. I’ve only seen the London show and the ending seemed more ambiguous to me tbh. Kinda sad to hear you guys didn’t like for good as that’s one of my favourite songs in the show but hey we don’t all have to like the same things. I think my enjoyment and fondness of the musical is probably quite largely influenced by who I was when I first saw it and who introduced me to it. Which is to say was doubly closested teenager who got introduced to it by my incredibly gay music teacher who I had a massive crush on in the way that teenagers will and was very confusing (I thought I was a lesbian at the time, turned out to be a bi man so 😂) but for me the show always felt queer to me in a way that I can’t explain. I also went on to read the rest of the books which I wouldn’t recommend as they definately get worse as you go (and weirder). That all being said, I absolutely fucking hate what they’ve done with it in the movies (tho I admit I haven’t seen them but the trailers, cast and fans have made me want to get as far away from them as possible). Completely agree there is no chemistry there (and I’m sorry Ariana grande can’t act (or sing imo but that’s a different issue)). Would love to hear you guys review the films and also talk about the fans because I honestly think both are fascinating. Anyways, great episode even if I don’t agree in a lot of places but it’s good to hear a different (and probably more objective) perspective and a great Dr Bultch appearance

when i was a teen i really didn't like musicals at all, maybe because autism made it take a while to understand things like Big Emotions or Goofy Fun, or because i kept getting dragged out to plays all the time without much say in the matter, or because i've always struggled with parsing lyrics in realtime so trying to follow the plot in musicals felt impossible for me, or because theater seemed in the realm of Girl Stuff i didn't really pay much attention to because That Wasn't For Me. so when my mom and my sister were constantly playing or singing songs from wicked during those years i was just kind of "whatever, that's annoying" about it but when i listen to some of those songs as an adult, i finally realize how damn much i was missing out. and it makes me kind of sad, but also feels kind of... nostalgic and warm, being able to finally look back and understand and connect with how these things made my mom and sister feel then, why they enjoyed it, why certain songs from musicals are able to stick with you the way they do i know you guys were pretty critical of For Good, but even still when you played it, before the first line even finished i was just hit by this wave of emotion from suddenly remembering my mom singing it 20 years ago. i have a hard time looking back with fondness on my teen years; so to get suddenly hit by a memory that - while a little bittersweet in ways - makes me feel happy to look back on, due to a song i *didn't even like at the time,* is just... idunno, i guess maybe there's something to this whole "musical theater" thing if it can manage to be affecting even when filtered entirely through second-hand music and podcasts

*EXTREMELY LOUD INCORRECT BUZZ* No, that not happened when a song of ice and fire was popular

Ugh, Josh, it is ok to say "I did not understand this show"

Josh describing how he didn't get into Wicked in high school having way more to do with the people who were really into it being super annoying speaks directly to my experience. Having finally seen it, I've lost count of how many times I've explained to college and post-college friends that despite being super into theater and musicals back then, I just never cared for Wicked.

Relistening to this and this time around I caught the Luck of the Irish reference at 06:25! When the heck are we getting an episode on THAT?? It might legitimately be a fascinating movie to discuss in how it depicts American identity, especially American white identity.

OH MY GOD I ALSO DID MULTIPLES!! I never heard them called that though we were just “preparing the show for competition”, and I’ve never met anyone else who’s had this experience!! In middle school theater we did it every year with our fall show, and it was always the most grueling process. My most prominent memory from this is that when we did The Little Mermaid and, since we couldn’t do costumes, we the extras had to form Ursula’s tentacles by linking arms on our knees and like doing the wave (?) for the entire of poor unfortunate souls. Creative? Yes. Deeply uncomfortable to both rehearse for hours? Ohhhh boy yes!

The bucket of water that kills you instantly.

Re: Nessa’s only personality trait being having a disability. I just realize that you may be right, but also, I’m in a wheelchair and when I saw this, at 16, I was so excited to see a person in a wheelchair in a musical that didn’t even care that the actress wasn’t actually in a wheelchair or that she kind of turns evil. I guess that’s how desperate Disabilty representation. I am glad that Marissa Bode the movie is actually in a wheelchair and support fully accessible Shiz and Oz! It made the part of me that’s s still 16 happy to see her go out dancing in the Ozdust Ballroom

I like wicked, but probably not as much as everyone I know thinks I do. I met Idina Menzel after seeing her concert when I was a senior in high school and almost lost my mind with excitement. She was extremely nice and gracious. Please do Wizard of Oz episode, when I was a kid, I watched the movie so many times I think I memorized it.

Interesting to hear about multiple forensics. I used to do dramatic interp. When I did it, there were never more than two people in one piece, which was called duo. Being allowed to have more than two people and slightly more time sounds interesting and chaotic! I remember two girls doing a duo of Wicked and thinking it was weird because they recited some of the lyrics of the songs that I knew rather than singing. My coach said it was too confusing if you did not know Wicked. On the other hand, I also remember two guys doing a duo interp where they basically did the Booth/Oswald scene from the end of Assassins. That was my first exposure to that show and I was hooked.

The city you're thinking of? Fall River, Mass

Really want to hear Samuel Bultch D.D.S. write a song about Defying Cavities or some shit

I literally spit out my drink when I heard the “Gettin the band back together” reference

When I used to work at one of Salem MA's many witch trials & witchcraft museums, the one i was at had a secondary exhibit (the first one was all the stuff that happened in 1692) about the concept of a witch through the ages, from the distant past to present pop culture. One of our talking points was about how the '39 film cemented the idea of a green witch in a black pointy hat in every American brain. And when we had to explain why the witch was green in the film when she wasn't in the book, we were told, "they made that decision because it would really pop in technicolor." At the time, that confused me, because it seemed like too simple an explanation. But when you guys explained the actual process by which films were colorized in technicolor, and how it literally looked different from how color films look today due to the actual technology behind it, it made complete sense to me why they would so drastically change the colors of the witch and the shoes - to the point where I'm retroactively a little pissed at our education directors for not clarifying for me! Like, if I were a guest at our museum being told "the green looked better in technicolor", my follow-up would be "why?" and I never had that answer until now. So thanks!

It's about time someone called attention to Legasse's apotheid state

Absolute banger from Dr Bultch this week, the best of his songs I’ve heard so far.

i appreciated The Amirable Crichton joke, Brian

I read the book of Wicked WAY too young (I was about 10) because it had been put into the 9-12 section of the bookstore so once again I think nobody had actually read it. I read the whole thing because I refused at the time to stop reading a book I'd started. Mostly I was just very confused lmao.

Wicked in 2024 exists in such a weird place in terms of lesbian relationships depicted in media. Big budget animated shows (She-Ra, Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch from Mercury) have been able to get away with gay relationships between women that are just as emotional and far more textual than even the Wicked book. For an even more direct comparison, Netflix just dropped about the same amount of money that the two Wicked movies will cost on making Arcane (~$300m vs ~$250m) which is something adapted from a far worse source, bad video game League of Legends. But guess which one has two main characters fall in love and actually have an extremely non-subtextual (and by the end of the show, very sexual) lesbian relationship?

We'll, I guess the Scarecrows intro song is now going to be "If I only had a cock..."

That discussion before the interstitial, it truly is the arguing season! Thanks for doing another musical. They’re some of my favorite episodes; you’ve honestly converted me into a big theatre fan.

I read a ton of those L Frank Baum and later book sequels as a kid and let me tell you, they get weird

As a high school baritone I feel you Dr Bultch

I did not know until finishing this episode how the Wicked musical ended and Wow I don't like it

I definitely agree that Wicked is WILDLY uneven in terms of quality. If the songs hit they HIT. But they don't ALWAYS hit. In the words of Archie Riverdale, it's the epic highs and lows [of wicked]. That said, I've always had a soft spot for the musical because as a queer woman the relationship between Elphaba and Glinda compels me. And, because I'm a huge baby, For Good DOES make me cry but I think it's more within the framework of "these women love each other and the narrative will NEVER let them be together but they've still been fundamentally changed by knowing each other even within the constraints of a very straight story." Which in turn I'd argue that the ending IS still a tragedy within that framework. Like Elphaba doesn't die, but she's separated from Glinda forever now and is in hiding with just Some Guy (sorry Fiyero. I find you uninteresting. It's not your fault). Anyway, it's not a perfect musical and it's not even necessarily good, but I did get the chance to see it on tour for my birthday in 2019, and that did sustain me emotionally. 🏳️‍🌈

Would you guys ever consider looking at a Brian Fuller show btw? The talk of Kristin Chenoweth here made me think of Pushing Daisies and its very broadway heavy casting (which he often does, but I think that show had the most).

I can't believe I'm an "interstitial preamble" guy now.

Don't have a lot to add, it's not a musical I'm familiar with, and I don't really care a bout the movie. Podcast was nice to listen to.

I assumed the answer was “no” when you mentioned the sisters story includes getting her disability fixed, but the film is the first time that role has been played by a performer who uses a wheelchair. Maybe this is wishful thinking on my part, but if they had actually cast someone in the original run who used one, maybe the character might have been given some other personality traits. I guess now it’s been 20 years the story is somewhat ossified so those changes are less likely to make it to the film, but maybe she’ll get a different arc in part 2.

"Oh please, Mr. Wizard sir. My friend Goku--he's just so full! Can't you help him?"