The Parental Estrangement Moral Panic (Premium E356)
In Premium Episode 328, Liv Agar and Spencer Barrows introduced us all to the sad world of the “Alienated Parent Forums” and, for this episode, they are back with an update on the moral panic related to parental estrangement. Since our last coverage of the topic, the amount of articles written about parental alienation syndrome by the American liberal journalist class has grown considerably. Liv and Spencer walk Jake and Julian through a couple of those pieces along with a few posts from the forums in order to get a better understanding of just how we got here.
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Produced by Liv Agar & Corey Klotz. Theme by Nick Sena. Additional music by Pontus Berghe. Theme Vocals by THEY/LIVE (https://instagram.com/theyylivve / https://sptfy.com/QrDm). Cover Art by Pedro Correa: (https://pedrocorrea.com)
QAA was known as the QAnon Anonymous podcast.
Comments (74)
Finishing up a casual 4th re-listen of this one… also the Chapo ep on it was pretty good every time. This whole admin is weirdly therapeutic bc it’s super triggering, all the lying and abuse, but it’s also nice to get half the country, like 100 million people, saying yeah that’s fucked up, that’s obviously bad and false, fuck you dad I can’t wait for you to die.
Desperate 🎰
It's kinda wild to hear advocates for a return to the "Golden Age" of family life describing excluding family members from your life for politics or disagreements over romantic partners when these are THE classic reasons to kick out kids or disinherit them. It really gives away that the problem isn't that people are doing these things which are beyond the social pale, but rather that the people doing them are usurping the prerogatives of their elders, who are supposed to be above them in the social hierarchy.
Different take here: I went through this same estrangement with my own mother, but not because of her religious or political beliefs, but because she lied to me and my sister about a pivotal childhood trauma for years and only admitted to it about 10 years ago. She's never apologized or admitted her wrong-doing, and it's been only recently that I've been able to deal with her without being angry at her. I hope my kids don't hate me later. 🤞😬
It’s true, therapy is considered a medical intervention and parents have rights to their minor children’s medical records. Myself and every child/teen therapist I’ve ever met starts trx with a discussion about expectation for privacy for the minor to facilitate the therapeutic process, and that sensitive info will only be shared if it is agreed upon with child, is medically necessary, or a safety concern. But really it’s up to the therapist’s discretion. And parents can request treatment documentation at any time. So any therapist worth their salt will focus their documentation on treatment strategies used in session and keep personal details vague to protect privacy. There are a lot of situations where having the ability to work with parents is important for treatment and safety, and many gray areas too. Unfortunately it would be hard to make or enforce a black and white rule on this topic. Very worth discussing though! It all starts with training respectful, competent, compassionate, judicious therapists.
Wait which episode was it that they discussed parental estrangement before? Don’t recall that one
Premium 328!
My family member who is MAGA is IMO (they will never agree to see a mental health professional) legitamtately struggling to discern reality from false memories and lucid dreams. And it is so hard to talk to them about anything because part of demagifying would mean having to admit to themselves that their brain does not work the way that it used too. It is a toxic relationship but this person could literally not survive on their own now. Saying this here because experiences like this were not really talked about in the episode. What do you do when someone's truly evil and harmful beliefs are fueled by mental illness or brain injury? I don't know and it fucking sucks.
These parents have leverage now, but as they age that leverage will flip. They are going to have no one to help them cope with health issues and to manage their finances. They will be at the total mercy of professional power of attorney people and nursing homes. Then they may realize how little their entitlement, racism, Christian supremacy, etc. will protect them from reality. But if they're very lucky some lib helping professional will advocate for them. Bleak.
There’s also been a wave of GC parents who believed their trans kid had desisted only for them to cut them off and transition as soon as they hit 18
I suspect that the fact it used to be easier to cut off your parents by just moving to a different city is part of why people think there’s an epidemic
If anyone could do a non-shit episode on the masking issue re the lesbian bar, it would be you guys; however, maybe don’t? Some shit is intra-community and should stay that way. We don’t get afforded that privacy or consideration from people who would like to destroy us and so harass us constantly, but that particularly is a sad and shameful story that started local, is still fundamentally local/community-specific, and should stay local. It would be preferable not to participate in the spectacle that mostly exists for the pleasure and political benefit of the genocidal assholes. If you have some stuff to contribute to the story or to bring to light that would have public or strategic value against the anti-trans voyeur crowd, that’s a different thing? But if it’s just coverage of the spectacle, then that’s just participating in it, not challenging it.
Re self diagnosis specifically: when I was last in the USA and pursuing official autism diagnosis, the waiting list for all 3 of the only clinics capable of diagnosing adults in my then state (population 6 million) was 12 months, if and only if you were paying out of pocket privately. If you asked about insurance, the receptionists laughed. It costed $6k, was 3 hours away from where I lived (all 3 facilities were located in cities on the border, so that was actually quite a bit closer than most of the population the centres were trying to serve). They also used pre-ASD diagnostic criteria (prior to when it had converged into autism spectrum disorder). To be evaluated, they send you a physical letter with the date of your evaluation. Can’t make it? Too bad, no eval for you. Missed the letter before the appointment confirmation deadline? Also too bad, no eval for you— tho, to be fair for them, I never heard of an appointment occurring in less than a year out, so you did have some time to inquire about a second letter if the first got lost in the mail. I did not elect to do this diagnostic process, because I’d just done it for adhd, which was also basically the same and limited to those three diagnostic clinics— the main difference was that that battery of tests was cheaper (only 3k!!) and you only had to wait 6 months, not 12. That was 6 years ago, now; since then, most of the funding those orgs used has mostly dried up. so. Good luck getting diagnosed if you live in that particular flyover state. I dont and wont throw shade at self diagnosis against anyone who doesn’t have a spare 6k$, a minimum of 12 months to spare prior to diagnosis, and the schedule flexibility to just show up at the date and time you’re assigned, come hell or high water. Fwiw, I did/do have a ‘provisional diagnosis’, whatever that means— the school (university) med clinic that sent me to these diagnositic clinics had some fun drug war policies that basically prohibited them from diagnosing anything that could be treated with stimulants— those diagnosis were ‘drug seeking’, so I had to go get these diagnosis in order to access basic care, and then I also had to submit to random drug testing for my trouble. C: i got the adhd diagnosis, which was cheaper and allowed me access to the interventions I needed (medications and some classroom accommodations, both of which required that expensive, externally confirmed diagnosis). So basically the doctor advised me that that was probably all that was worth doing (which is true and I agree with), so they gave me a provisional diagnosis for autism instead, which basically meant to them that ‘we are quite sure you have this but we didn’t do the external testing our clinic legally requires to give you a non-provisional diagnosis’, which is fine except it’s really not clear to me how official that is for other clinics, or if other doctors will respect or dismiss it. And since I’m trans and a few other risk factors, we decided to leave the United States to join my family in another country, so that added some stakes to the whole ‘what does a provisional diagnosis mean’. 🤷 but considering we needed a letter from my husband’s USA endocrinologist to confirm his diabetes type 1 diagnosis before doctors here would take that condition seriously, I’m not going to hold my breath to find out. Self diagnosis is complex and we don’t need to hold water for conservatives and be apologetic about that, because they are behind the societal conditions that make external diagnosis so difficult to acquire from people who DO have these conditions. We don’t carry water for them by saying ‘I mean sure there’s one or two people that abuse food stamps BUUUUT—‘, and for the same rhetorical reasons we shouldn’t carry water for them regarding especially the validity of other people’s mental health or identities.
How did no one make a biggus dickus joke?
I loved the episode but someone needs edit or rein in Spencer. His trains of thought are long and often rambling and half way through he goes down a new tangent, making it even longer and further from the original subject. The man clearly knows his stuff but he also really likes to talk A LOT. It has been the same of all the episodes with him. A more precise and concise Spencer would be wonderful.
I'm probably at the older end of the listener spectrum. Thought my longer term perspective might be useful to anyone considering going no contact. I cut my mother out of my life completely in march 1990 while I was pregnant with my first child. The breaking point for me was her referring to my unborn child (whose father was the first generation Australian born child of Greek immigrants) as a "half breed". 36 years later I have zero, absolutely zero regrets. I raised my four kids with out that toxicity, I broke generations deep cycles of being hateful abusive shitty parents. If your inner voice is telling to this person is harming you, I can not more strongly recommend you put yourself first and burn that bridge to the ground.
Thanks for the shout out, Spencer (random mom in Wisconsin).
The moment someone says "I attend mass everyday" you gotta run for the hills
Does someone know where the snippet comes from that is in the auto queue at the end?
I would also like to know.
Can someone please direct me to the other estrangement episode? As soon as I saw the title of this one I screamed "YES!" internally. I've been saying that estrangement from parents has been getting the moral panic treatment and I'm glad it's being discussed. I was raised by evangelical Christians and I've been estranged from most of my family for decades now. I let my mom know about my breast cancer diagnosis earlier this year and the first thing she asked was whether I would be willing to take Ivermectin and Mebendazole. So, we're back to no contact... I think the majority of people I know and meet that are estranged from family were also raised in religious homes with either physical and emotional abuse and/neglect, so it makes sense that it's being treated as a moral panic because it's the same demographic responsible for the moral panic around homosexuality and Dungeons and Dragons.
Premium 328 - alienated parents forums
If Matt Yglesias (et al) wants people to stop telling him hes doing the trump regime's dirty work, maybe he should stop doing the trump regime's dirty work. just feel like it needs to be said.
When people try to question me about don't I owe my mom a relationship because "she's your mom", I like to ask them how many times your mentally ill mom who refuses any treatment could attempt suicide with you in the house as a teenager (!!!) before it's a personal safety issue? Three sound about right? Same here, my guy!
The realization that a lot of the listeners are also cut off kids is so funny to me. I started listening to this pod waaaay back (like late 2018 early 2019? Idk I don't remember dates well anymore) literally because I was still trying to keep on top of conspiracy theories to try to counter my parents/family and try to help debunk them because when I heard about qanon I knew it would be something they would immediately fall for. Now, all these years later, I'm happily no contact and I just listen for the love of the game (mentally torturing myself at the state of the world).
Good episode but Spencer’s gotta watch the stuff he says about that guy’s little brother. Is he a groyper? Maybe. Are we certain? No. A lot of people have no choice in their education and saying he’s automatically a groyper is fucked. Most kids that still do altar boy shit in high school usually do it to get out of class. And based on how the kid’s parents are acting toward his own sibling, he could be simply “playing the role” so as to not be treated the same way. The kid is in HS. He might hate his life just as much as his older brother.
Grew up in an extremely conservative christian household, my father was a pastor for most of my childhood. All my life I was told that the things I enjoyed were "evil/of the devil." Comic books, D&D, video games, Star Wars, punk rock, scary movies, etc. After 11 years of this shit I no longer have the stomach or patience to watch them all worship history's most cartoonishly evil conman, while lecturing me about halloween decorations. No contact since the fascist pedo returned and no regrets
my absolute support for you on this.
I'm surprised that the famously reposted "missing missing reasons" text wasn't mentioned.
The comment about banning phones in Florida was just wrong. The research shows that in the second year there were modest increases in scores (after going down in the first year) so like yall always try to point out rightly there’s some nuance that needs to be considered. I think the direction of this ep is correct but when you get stuff like this wrong it’s hard to take other arguments as seriously.
a lot of estranged parents really give off "the teacher said you have to play with me" vibes
Okay going to out myself here as a therapist (so sorry) and also while we *can snitch ethically under the guise of protecting from harm* holy shit you SHOULD NOT DO THAT and honestly what the actual fuck. If you’re working with minors they are so incredibly vulnerable you have to be so careful with what you share because they see you one hour a week and they have to LIVE with their parents all the time. A case where you would have to snitch would be real extreme like imminent harm to self or others which has a clinical assessment piece to it and also the rule as far as I am concerned is I would never tell a parent something without expressly talking to the kid first and finding out what they are comfortable with (if anything). The kid is your client. Not the parent.
Thank you 💗
I was fortunate to have two loving, caring parents that still to this day are a part of my life. But even then, their bullshit religious beliefs (basically an offshoot of 7DA evangelicals who are creationist) have caused numerous problems in our relationship that could have led to full cutoff. Beginning of course with the time my dad threatened to pull my college loans he’d co-signed if I didn’t marry my then-girlfriend before living together, but going all the way to the present-day where they snuck my kids off to the Creation “Museum” during a week they were watching them. Even given that, I’ve continued the relationship but it’s been extremely difficult at times. I can’t blame anyone who’s made the choice to cutoff for their own protection.
Loving people don't try to force their beliefs on others. Just saying!
As Spencer said, it WAS easier to ghost back in the day. I was posting recently abt this bc in SF it was clear so many adults I grew up around, queer and not, came here to break w the toxicity (or whatever people said back then) and forge new lives Ok, reading this back it sounds like I’ve never heard of Tales of the City. But I’m just saying!!
Shout out to the Sax Repare-er Class
I attend ACA meetings and this is a common topic. It is crazy what parents do to their children.
The parental sense of entitlement to own and control their children is so INCREDIBLY harmful, we should call it out whenever and wherever we see it for the absolute toxic bullshit it is
Jake's right about the desperation
Omg yes I’ve been hoping you would have an ep on this stuff
Supporting traditional values like buying a steerage ticket to the New World and never seeing my family again, whether I wanted to or not.
Holy shit, I knew Demosthenes Lorandos when I was a kid, and he was (briefly) friends with my parents. He had this lovely wife—I liked her a lot—and a couple of little kids and a psychiatric practice, and then he didn’t have the wife anymore and my mom declared him a creep and that was the last I’d heard of him until this podcast. Absolutely nothing about where he’s gone in life in the subsequent 40+ years since then surprised me to find out.
As someone who's read extensively on childhood sexual abuse, I need to note that the full name of the weird child psychiatrist who coined the term "Parental Alienation Syndrome" is Richard A. Gardner. This is important because when you Google his name without the middle initial, you will run into works of Richard B. Gartner, who is a clinical psychologist (NOT a psychiatrist) also based in New York. He is an amazing advocate for victims of child sexual abuse and he worked extensively with clients who were sexually abused as boys. I recommend his work on this issue. His field of work largely overlaps with Richard A. Gardner who defends sexual abusers so it can get pretty confusing when doing research on him if you're not aware about this. Hope this helps!
This vibes like Naomi Kleins book “Doppleganger”
The sad thing is, there’s probably a significant number of right wing groyper etc. millennials who will also struggle to relate to their kids. And so it continues.
They're continuing the cycle, completely failing to learn and do better for the next generation. Which is our JOB as parents.
Omg…59 yo man 5 children and so sad for people with shitty parents. My best friends are my adult children and its their life and always be there to support. Oldest is a gay man and fortunately he has always been supported 100. Good work!!!! Keep telling it!!
shout out to your family 💕
The estranged father's forum is a bit like the Velvet Underground's first album - only a few people are on them, but everyone who is will start their own family annihilation
Spencer’s remark about the absolute refusal of many people, especially older ones, to engage in any self-reflection over their children cutting them off, this is an excellent point. You can see it everywhere from chuds like Elon Musk and Marc Andreesen and Gad Saad going on about “suicidal empathy” and self-reflection being some modern invention. These people have spent their lives erecting a carapace around their core beliefs because even they know that that core won’t stand up to scrutiny; and they lash out at anyone who threatens that shell
(Me hearing about the ex-everything Free Press journalist) Wake up, honey, new Eve Fartlow just dropped
PLEASE comment on the Western Mass lesbian bar, I’m begging you! Then Eurovision
I think you really hit on something with these moral panicks having to do with journalists terrified that people hate them.
My transphobic white supremacist father psychologically terrorized me for four years after legally kidnapping me at 14. I cut him off. He tried to guilt me into being friendly with him like five years ago. I told him I’d be happy to rekindle, but only if we did so exclusively in family psychotherapy fully funded by him. He ghosted me 🤣 now he’s a MAGA pilled prime time talk show co-host for rednecks. Fucking loser.
i’m sorry, hope you’re in a better place now
The way Spencer said, "Fireworks are for everyone, except dogs and veterans", gave me the chuckles
Dude, dr Coleman was my therapist!
My mom became a true hardcore maga supporter especially for Trump probably by the start of Biden’s term, and she knows I don’t like him, and that I have views of more of the left side, she talked about the 5000 we’ll get and we’ll get that money by tariffs but estrangement is something I can’t do.
I’m still upset bc Jake casually mentioned parents that pay for their kids to go to college in America like 10 episodes back. MUST BE NICE JAKE
Liv Agar
Wisconsin moms have entered the chat 😤
These parents aren't ever willing to accept responsibility, accountability, or any agency in their relationships. Ask me how I know.
The total and complete lack of a functioning Left in the US that can actually link economic and social struggle combined with the middle class spoils of imperialism results in everything just being culture war.
I don't know, the DSA is pretty functional right now doing exactly that 🤷
no Jake, it's the Irish that eat the babies. apparently the Jews were the child rights activists from the jump
liv agar
I had a therapist that told everything to my mom too! I didn't understand how awful it was because it absolutely helped us communicate a bit for the yearish I was seeing her, but yeah... Totally realized that wasn't actually the way of seeing it....
Conversion therapy isn't therapy. It's abuse.
Exactly, they're just lying when they call it that.
finally. cut-off kid confirmed
Liv laugh Agar
Here too quick on a Saturday. Wish my son would call me
Liv Agar