Adolescence: The Manosphere Strikes Back (E322)

So nice to have an Annie episode, even if she only ever gets to do the most depressing episodes because of how cursed our Island is

If they want a good example of the kind of incel rage depicted in the show, what about elliot rodger’s? He was even born in london. The whole point is that the manosphere is not just one thing but cuts across multiple subcultures; white supremacy, christian nationalism and the trad far right - it’s just easiest for teenagers to understand the misogyny. The right wing critics really scored points for how specific they got with who did what, meanwhile there’s a much larger festering mass.

What’s this no British Pope misinformation?!?! pope Adrian IV was the awesomely named Nicholas Breakspear- as English as they come!

qj u

In the mid 2000s i got wrapped up into american Renaissance and other far right racist groups. I got dragged in because I hated myself over my 300 plus pound ogre body. I overcame this thankfully

Although not a "one shot film," Children Of Men has some amazing long take action sequences. Also, fucking relevant as hell film.

Long time devoted listener, first time commenter - great episode as usual. I’m afraid it’s come up too many times now and I’m compelled to correct Jake’s view of life expectancy in the past. The average life expectancy was in the forties mainly because of the incredibly high infant mortality rates. Plenty of people still lived into their 50s 60s and 70s.

Annie episodes are life fuel

Liv Agar

I’m in my mid-30s, and work in a team mostly made up of early 20s, and some 18-19 year olds. Post-ironic incel-culture derived vernacular is very much the water they swim in. It permeates the entirety of their vocabulary, and most gags and jokes can be sourced to 4chan and incel boards. This is true of a lot of internet culture in general, but the extent of incel verbiage used was quite surprising initially. I will say, that it is always tongue-in-cheek. There’s rarely any politics chatter in the team chat, but if there is it’s always loosely-left progressive. V inclusive and diverse team, never had any instances of bigotry, chauvinism, sexualisation, queerphobia, or misogyny. So, I think part of it is a carryover from early-teen edgy humour. The joke format carried over, and became youth culture and common vernacular. That said, I think adolescence shows how it is particularly damaging for young teens, that are less equipped with tools to discern the fiction and absurdity at the root of the ideology. Especially so for someone like Jamie, with serious mental health issues. The pervasiveness of these ideas, feed on the inherent sexism, edginess, and meanness, of young teens. The bullying, violence, and bigotry is always there, but to have ‘adults’ (Tate, etc) reinforcing, and arming, those ideas with a cohesive and verbose ideology, absolutely potentiates that issue. I think some hope can be taken from the post-ironic usage of incel terms in youth culture, and the detective’s son in Adolesence stating that while they know all of it, they do not believe the assertion of the manosphere. But, the ubiquity of such a dangerous and violent ideology in youth culture, and no real, considered, opposition from wider culture, will radicalise young men, by design. I think the show is a watershed moment, I’ve found a lot of the responses to it a little frustrating. There’s still a reluctance to engage with the source and politics of the ideology itself, politically. But, in the whole, it’s positive, and I’ve had a lot of discussions with friends and family. It’s been very gratifying to actually be able to offer them some context, after spending a decade researching and consuming content on the manosphere, alt-right, incel, conspiracy right. Maybe it wasn’t all for nothing after all.

JAKE VOYAGE OF THE MIMI MEMORY UNLOCKED LOLLLLL

Annie Kelly

Augh the Andrew Tate stuff is so frustrating. Like no, he's not literally an insecure teenage virgin; he's a grown man doing a horned-up misogynist schtick for an audience of insecure teenage virgins who find him relatable because he has the same personality as them, just in a grown-up body.

ANNIE KELLY!!! 🥰💕👏 Also!!! There aren’t actually any hidden cuts in Russian Ark, it’s a pure one shot film! There’s a tiny bit of manipulation in the very last seconds to display the Black Sea but the entire route through the Hermitage was one take! I wrote a paper about the process a few years ago, it’s really fascinating - there’s a great documentary about it called In One Breath.

Just commenting to big up XTC's "No Thugs In Our House", a fantastically catchy single from 1982 about normie suburban parents unaware of their young son's forays into white nationalist street violence ("They thought that it was just a boys' club badge he wore / They never thought he'd cause folks any harm"). Same as it ever was, innit

Annie what color would the smoke be if they pick you?

Probably already been said, but I love y'all and didn't DISagree with a word that was said, I was also a bit surprised that nobody on this episode felt even a tinge of a Satanic Panic-like, well , panic coming off of what was, granted, a very well made show. A bit too close to what I felt in the 80s, the War On Drugs, and the recent Trans freak-out. Who will think of the children?!

Holy smokes. I can’t believe South Park’s Emoji Analysis bit made it to the mainstream.

Annie is one of our great cultural exports really 🇬🇧

Please Jake, Judy calm down and talk less.

Jake was really loving the sound of his own voice on this episode. Talking for minutes on end asking open questions wondering about filming techniques while if he just asked the question Annie or a youtube video could have answered his question. What happened this week? He doesn't usual display this level of self centered mic hogging.

We love the Annie episodes in this house

I am so impressed by y’all’s composure discussing this subject matter. I’m seething and sometimes shaking and with anger listening to the misogynistic and racist push back rn😖

Red Pill's current definition is common? I actually don't think that's true for most people. Honestly, if it wasn't for your excellent podcast (which I discovered through listening to Conspirituality podcast during shutdown, which in turn was recommended in a comment in the New York Times), I would still be associating it with The Matrix. 100%. In fact, I wouldn't even be listening to podcasts if it hadn't been for shutdown. That stray New York Times comment piqued my interest and I needed something new to alleviate the boredom. So I decided to give podcasts a try for the first time. I'm the only one among all my friends that listens to podcasts. We range in age from 30s to early 70s, we're all in Los Angeles in the arts, entertainment and legal. I'm in my early 50s and I watched this show with friends my own age and one that was older, in his 60s. I had to explain the current meaning to all of them. They all thought it referred to specifically The Matrix (including one who is a special ed teacher in LAUSD). The same has held true for my family and friends in Washington state. I've had to explain it to them as well. Which I'm pretty darn sure I wouldn't be able to do if I hadn't gone down the rabbit hole of conspiracy podcasts. I guess I should you thank you guys and gals for that? Lol.

Toby Young? The guest Top Chef host nobody liked?

Is there a new series of Manclan coming soon? 🙏

QAA Consulting Wing - Please Hollywood let Jake poison your scripts 🙏

Pope Annie 🥰

He threw his own stag do and nobody turned up holy fuck 🤣🤣

Oh about that export of cinematic contents and tariffs... I have news.

19th-century defenders of slavery invariably blamed abolitionists as meddlers who didn’t know what the fuck they were talking about. Slaves were happy and had it better than northern wage workers. So yes, there was an equivalent. Many also claimed slave narratives couldn’t have actually been written by former slaves…

Liv Livgar

love Badenach's "there are much greater problems such as uhhh umm errr islamic terrorism?"

Oh Jake... the guard may be gentle with Jamie but he's also incredibly creepy and low key misogynistic with the psychologist, belittling her credentials and getting uncomfortably close to her. It's subtle but that character ultimately shows more respect and compassion for a 13 year old murderer than for professional adult woman.

I have not watched Adolescence. I have a 13 year old 8th grade son (our youngest) who has ADHD, is autistic and struggles with emotional regulation and is bullied. It seemed a little too close for comfort. I asked him this morning what kind of videos he likes to watch on YouTube. He couldn’t really say, other than memes and game walk throughs. The computer is just off the kitchen and his phone he barely touches. He has a watch for emergency calls. I asked if he knew who Andrew Tate was. Nope. Toxic masculine? Also hope, but I did offer a brief explanation. Incel? Blank stare. But the kicker was “red pill”. “You mean, like, from the Matrix?”

Lol at the idea that boys will be traumatized by watching Adolescence when we had to watch films that told us what to do if the USSR dropped a nuke on Britain

Give it a week and Starmer will be saying it's woke trash because a focus group told him Reform voters don't like it.

Russian Ark is one continuous shot but movies like Birdman use tricks like Hitchcock’s Rope (pan to black) to appear like one shot

Annie, can confirm Adolescence discourse in my corner of the States in March; with a filmmaker friend but also with parents/prestige tv consumers

It is notable that Adolescence focuses on the boy murderer's experience and doesn't even explore to fallout to the victim, her family, and community. She isn't humanized at all, and in fact Adolescence kind of blames her for bullying with obscure emojis and dehumanizes her. It would have been interesting to explore the social pressures and sources of her conditioning that led her to act in that way.

Toby Young "right-wing journalist, among other things" says Annie. One of those other things is that he's Baron Young of Acton, Member of the House of Lords. Thanks Kemi...

Phenomenal episode from Annie as always!

I don't know. Obviously as an adult it feels crazy and disturbing to imagine little kids like that worrying about virginity and inceldom but then again when *I* was 13 (2007) I think *I* believed many-to-most others my age were sexually active. In hindsight obviously that wasn't true and the VAST majority of those who said they were were probably (hopefully) lying but you don't have perspective when you're 13.

I’m the same age as Jake and I’m pretty sure the only dramatizations we watched were don’t drive drunk or fast because LOOK AT THE PEOPLE BEING SCRAPED OFF THE WINDSHIELD. Definitely was never shown a dramatization of not getting pregnant. Maybe I saw one on someone saying no to peer pressure about drinking. But maybe that’s what being from La is like. They are just like seriously guys if you drink, don’t fucking drive because your brains will be out of your head like IN THIS REAL VIDEO RIGHT HERE. Anyway… it worked.

Honestly, I get Reefer Madness vibes from the show. Our little darling took one puff of Maryjane and 3 weeks later he’s injecting heroin into his eyeballs.

Yaaay Annie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Zero days since last time I was.subjected to Paul Thomas Watson's existentially annoying voice

Ashley Walter's Top Boy! WAGWAN

Banning teenagers from using social media because of a scary TV show would be very silly, and honestly it would be what I expect from liberal governments.

I'm sad you made me listen to Russell brand

There was one (1) English Pope. Adrian IV, nee Nicholas Brakespear. Guess who issued the declaration naming the King of England Lord of Ireland?

Holy shit, this might be the longest episode ever. Listening now.

It's confusing that the showrunners say they wanted to exclude any family abuse contributing to his violence, to say this could happen to any family, but chose to have someone spray "nonce" on his dad's van and we see so much of his dad about to lose control.

The Fall is very underrated. One of the best shows.

I think I first learned of Stephen Graham when he played Al Capone in Boardwalk Empire, with an Italian-American accent

Somebody prolly already said it, but Conspirituality also did a solid analysis of "Adolescence," and part of that was the lack of attention to Jamie's father's history of violence and the family's fawning.

"The UK doesn't make stuff anymore except for dramas" That's not fair we've got Games Workshop (Warhammer) 😤

Jake seems a little comfortable tossing out the R word

I think it would be good and ethical to have the headline when Tate is extradited to the UK read "Andrew Tate extradited for being a virgin" because he'd wind up confessing in court to beat that charge.

Omg yes Travis, a rewatcher of Peep Show? What an enlightened soul ✨️🙏

Believe it, I personally know several people who are totally unfamiliar with these online terms; red pill, incel, etc. Many are just not tuned into this dimension of culture.

I’m only halfway through but it’s so funny how this stuff can tailspin my brain. I think it’s good we have fictional stuff to represent this because I think so many normies don’t get the online world matters until they see it as a drama but if you’re going to based curriculum around this it should be the copious amount of existing nonfiction work (including even stuff like this podcast) bc anything else is just clear evidence of moral panic. The conservative lady was so close to articulating this until she brought up Islamic radicalism lol that hurt bc I was with her before. Maybe I listen to too much Michael Hobbes lol but I do feel sorry for him having to think this way all the time (rightfully I think)

I wonder if Dr. Annie would consider writing a primer for friends and families. I have Men Who Hate Women by Bates but imo there are some issues: it's long, not easily digestable, and it frames this as a *white* male problem. I know this is fraught bc the right is trying to frame this as anything but that, but as a mother of a young black man who has been effectively stolen from me bc my family didn't believe me, the black manospere is very real. Look at myron and walter. My son said I should listen to them bc they make good points -he was too young to know he was telling on himself I. have been dealing with this for approx. 11 years. It started with the gym. I was aware, but left it alone bc that alone is not nefarious. Then he hit me with what felt like an oddly specific list of assertions about pay gaps, Jews, women, and other Black people. When I described this to a friend, I said it sounded like he was channeling nick fuentes (this is around 2015). I tried to enlist family. When I told them what he said, the response was "he's not white" which was obviously news to me given I had birthed him :/ I explained the pareto principle to a family member who my son was going on a trip with, told them to throw me under the bus and ask what his crazy mother won't stop braying about. After the trip he came back and told me my son had explained the pareto principle to him independently and that therefore any woman that liked him was just out to use him. This is where I make a wide eyed jokerfied face bc like "you get it now, RIGHT??". Instead they told me "Welllll.... overweight women ARE unattractive and in my experience women ARE gold diggers and women in abusive relationships need to accept some responsibility." I am not thin, every woman on his side of the family has worked, and I was in an abusive relationship where I was the victim of multiple felonies ...so to hear that from MY DAD absolutely crushed me. I can be in the same house for a week straight without my son speaking to me. I'm guessing reading reddit posts titled "single mothers are subhuman scum who are destroying civilization" and "female duplicity and all its constituent parts" have affected his opinion of women, including me. I'm a Man Clan grad but I have been wading through this swamp for years and it is so isolating bc ppl irl don't know. Parents don't know, mental health professionals don't know. QAA folks know, you all keep me somewhat sane. Annie, we need your help. You don't ever get over losing a relationship with a child, the grief is inescapable, and if I have to read another preface about the GD matrix, I'm going to stab myself in the eye with a fork. Apologies for the giant wall of text.

Great conversation-thank you. I loved when Travis and Annie translated for Jake❤️❤️

jake

This is such a great episode. The Archers (the most middle class BBC radio soap opera) had an a story arc about one of the characters getting into Andrew Tate and the gross misogyny that followed. Would I like a QAA / Archers episode? Where Annie has to explain the Archers to the boys? Yes, yes I would.

Omfg a Voyage of the Mimi sighting in the wild…I fully thought I was the only GenXer alive who remembered Ben Affleck’s elementary school docuseries debut

Russell Brand has managed to get worse which is amazing

Annie thinks London is like Chicago because it has a very big, famous downtown with a decent amount of monuments, but then is surrounded by an insane amount of suburban spare bleeding into dozens if not hundreds of municipalities. I visited London for the first time last year and my first thought was that it was laid out like Chicago, but with the monuments and museums of DC.

If we remade Adolescence with AI then the right would love it. There's a huge gap here though where they all talk about the boys' feelings and none of them care if girls are actually worried. This is very typical of the way they "protect women and girls" but think we're not really people.

Aargh! Again with the willful misuse of plain words! Toby Young, you dummy, “toxic” is the modifier, the adjective. See, “masculinity” is a trait that comes in many flavors/flavours. “Toxic masculinity” is one. Slap other adjectives on and - presto change-o - you mean something else. Toby Wanker Young, around minute 56, says that showing “Adolescence” in school means that “these poor mites are going to have to… explain to their classmates the idea that masculinity is toxic and should be at all costs handled with tongs…” (Oh, ffs, as I write this, you started playing the horrid Russell Brand.)

Peep Show mentioned 👁️

What the fuck Annie?! Pope Adrian IV née Nicholas Brakespeare

Ugh, as someone with a regional "working class" accent I fucking can't stand these cunts who weaponise 'authenticity'. Some really minted people have "working class" accents. The economic definition of working class is far more accurate than the social one: if you work for a boss rather than exploiting workers or tenants, you're working class.

Annie, we’ve had one British Pope - Nicolas Breakspear. St Albans is both proud and not proud of this fact

British people watching a tv show and then scolding and moralizing anyone who doesn’t watch it is so… perfect for them. “Dereliction of duty” lmao

Trust Bad Enoch to use a discourse about misogynistic violence to whip up islamophobia!

Look, if we are going to have the TV teach our boys to be men we shouldn't be showing them this we should be showing them Cyberpunk: Edgerunners. The message on "Alpha Male" philosophy is too blunt for them misinterpret and even if they do they will be too depressed after watching to do anything bad.

Jake Travis Annie

I watched this show so fast! Can't wait to hear Annie's take

Any day with Annie on the podcast is a good day! Great subject too, right up her alley.

Annie Kelly

Liv Agar