Wild Faith feat. Talia Lavin (E303)
The election of Donald Trump means that the Christian right expects to have even more political influence than they did before. That might be bad news for those of us who don’t believe worldly events are merely the byproducts of a transcendent spiritual battle of good vs. evil.
To better understand the philosophy and goals of American theocrats, Travis and Jake spoke to Talia Lavin, author of Wild Faith: How the Christian Right Is Taking Over America. We explore her research into how rightwing evangelical Christians have worked to become a powerful constituency over past five decades, the modern-day prophets and apostles who drive the movement, the Christian Patriarchy movement which justifies the subjugation of women and the abuse of children, and why extremist Christians so easily became online conspiracy theorists.
It's challenging subject matter which is made more palatable by Talia’s deep knowledge and Jake making an overextended metaphor about eating moldy bagels.
Talia Lavin on Bluesky
https://bsky.app/profile/swordsjew.bsky.social
Wild Faith: How The Christian Right Is Taking Over America by Talia Lavin
Thanks for subscribing to QAA on patreon.
Editing by Corey Klotz. Theme by Nick Sena. Additional music by Pontus Berghe, Nick Sena, Jake Rockatansky. Theme Vocals by THEY/LIVE (https://instagram.com/theyylivve / https://sptfy.com/QrDm). Cover Art by Pedro Correa: (https://pedrocorrea.com)
QAA was known as the QAnon Anonymous podcast.
Comments (89)
This episode not only resulted in me buying her excellent book but also listening to the wonderful podcast I Hate James Dobson, who I'd love to hear a crossover episode with.
To clarify, not with James himself , although I do think talking to a super weird sexist, homophobic, fascist, abusive corpse would be great content if said corpse is desecrated.
Love Talia! Can’t wait to listen to her book
Talia was amazing!!! Please bring her back soon 🥰 I immediately bought her audiobook after listening to this episode and I concur with Jake; she’s fantastic at narrating her audiobook. One of my favourite things in the world is to listen to non-fiction authors that can narrate their own works well, so in my mind Talia Lavin is now part of an esteemed crew including Jon Ronson, Johan Hari, and Bill Bryson. Please let me know of others that should be included in this crew 🥰
Talia is such a fantastic interview. She uses words so beautifully, and she’s also razor sharp at her craft. Superb work!
To Jake's point that "if it's demons, it's not you," that's one of the things that made me so furious when I still id'd as an atheist, and now as a convert to the Episcopal church makes me more sad than mad; that the Christianity many people subscribe to is one in which evil is this externalized force in the world, and as such we don't have to be accountable for the bad things we do to other people and to the planet. Never having been evangelical or fundamentalist myself, I just don't know how people can read more or less the same bible that I read and come to such a vastly different conclusion. "It's all movies" probably has something to do with it. In some ways I feel like this taking demons and possession and a battle between good and evil extremely literally is a way for fundamentalists to channel liking the products of popular culture without having to admit that they actually secretly enjoy horror movies and heavy metal, etc.
I’m catching up on episodes again… they just keep getting better! ….,QAA keeps inviting the most articulate and fascinating speakers. This was fascinating and eye opening, thank you 😎
This analysis is just recycling the last year years. Less bad gaza policy? They already ahead gebun an annexation and genocide with biden Trump will complete it. Same as biden if he won.
I think one of the most disturbing things in the episode was the image of Jake having to eat grocery store bagels out of a plastic sleeve.
"THEY'RE EATING THE CATS!" Sorry, the Devil made me do it.
Unrelated subject but could you make a follow-up update on Romana Didulo if there's any?
Beating your kids doesn't make them a better person. It just makes them better liars.
I see libs on here talking about destroying the Republicans. But it seems to me democrats are the ones trying the hardest. To save the Republicans party from trump.
The comments here make me understand why we are in this pickle. The Left has to unite.
If you unite with the people doing genocide you're just as evil as they are. Try having some moral conviction for once.
Team up with resistance libs to do what exactly?
Save the world by destroying Trump and the Republican Party? Defeat the people who want to repeal the 19th Amendment and execute gays? Why is this hard for you?
Anecdotally, liberals are a lot more radical when it’s trump doing the kids in cages and genocide. When dems do it the masses and the media ignore or sanitize it. I think every day about how the mass slaughter of Palestinians under a trump admin would be presented by the media and received by libs
What makes you think it would be presented any differently? Destruction of Palestine is exactly what democrats want too.
Jesus is coming sounds more like Jesus is cumming. I'm a Christian and this shit nauseated me.
The European Wars of Religion have actually served me well in this case, as I'm culturally Catholic, so I get a lot of mileage out of squinting downwards, and muttering about Protestant shenanigans, and how adherence to sola fide is an excuse to get out of community accountability and service via Good Works. (It's downward squinting not out of a moral positioning, but a geographic one, as I am Canadian, and from Eastern Ontario, not Southern, and therefore the whole Lower 48 are in a jortsward direction.)
This is a great ep. Also, "Reusable Jesus Thruster" is very euphonic
Can't believe Jake didn't say May the grilled cheese bless you smh
Grew up Christian Nationalist & still in therapy to get rid of the brainwashing that we’re all in a magical spirit war between “good & evil.” It’s all BS. Grateful I was able to escape. Really wish this horrid American subculture weren’t taking over the GOP because insane people shouldn’t be running the government or courts, but here we are. Hold onto your butts because it’s gonna be a bumpy 4/40 years.
great show, talia lavin is always great on shows, i need to ask about a possible problem with my billing, i sent a message in the other part of the site, can you let me know
"Dried out stick" is probably the most diplomatic way to describe the auto q guy's last sexual encounter with another sentient being.
Only demons from hell would give a grilled cheese that isn't cut diagonally though.
Ordered her book. Sounds like it hits the nail on the head.
I love the way she tells a story. “A Christian loves a Jew like a hungry person loves a chicken wing”.
Thanks for reminding me of that line! Fabulous!
The civil rights/abortion thing is something Matt Sitman of Know Your Enemy has talked about as a former evangelical/conservative activist. People in the movement have a deep conviction that their fight to eradicate abortion is as righteous as King's March on Washington.
Do you think this type of thinking is pathological? As a child I had major delusions and compulsions. Some of this came out through religious behavior and then as a teen it was mostly through religious behavior and belief. I constantly searched for signs and symbols, but that was because I had untreated underlying mental illness. Do you think these people have sort of pathology or are simply fulfilling like normal needs for making meaning?
My ears perked at sandwich talk more than anything else on this episode. Im desensitized to rightwing bullshit but me love a good sammy!
When my wife was pregnant, we got all of this literature from our ob-gyn and pediatrician that said things like "A newborn can NOT be manipulative!" and "Feeding a baby when they cry is NOT spoiling them!". At the time I just thought the stress of being a new parent made you act irrationally (and, yes, it sure did), but now I wonder if it was an attempt to counteract some abusive behavior from evangelical parenting
Whoa, that’s crazy! I’m in New Zealand so I’m going to ask around to see if that happened/happens here…
Talia's point about being raised in authoritarian homes where dads beat their kids has an ironic component. All of these people talk about going back to the Fifties, but all of the TV shows from that time feature a dad who, when their kids messed up, came home and...talked to them. Ward Cleaver never beat The Beaver. Well, not the kid.
It's not the lefts fault. Biden and kamala thought they could ignore their voters they had a year to stop israels insanity. They chose not to. If kamala had won antony butcher of gaza blinken kirby and the rest of the genocidaires would have mocked the supporters for equal rights . Kirby. and company will go down in history as the men who sacrificed america to support white colonization.
I noticed this after 2020: insanity makes for a better podcast. This episodes guest summed up how utterly creepy right wing evangelical support for israels descent into madness is. Thank you guest
The problem with the counterzeal for suppossed cacophony disappears if you just embrace Marxism-Leninism as the science through which we will overthrow both the conservative and liberal wing and institute the dictatorship of the proletariat. Clear principles.
Lenin wanted state capitalism, and that's what he created, via using the unions to co-opt and subordinate the worker controlled factory committees. He helped put the supply chains and structure in place that has led to the especially shitty version of capitalism they have in Russia now. "State socialism" is an oxymoron.
This episode is a grilled cheese for my soul. Thanks for sharing ❤️🩹
My favorite thing to tell these people when I interact with them is that I'll pray for them, it really short circuits their brain
Whenever I feel like arguing with evangelicals, I love using terms like “satanic”, “demonic”, or “evil” to describe capitalism or conservatism. It completely catches them off guard because most of them have never conceived of leftism in a Christian context. They’re also biblically illiterate so I’ll always throw out a verse or two. I’m still working out my relationship to Christianity but I refuse to cede faith to the right.
The bagel has gotten real moldy folks!
Second to last? Still iffy. We're gonna do it folks! He's gonna eat the moldy one!
"Apocalypse humpers". That's not in the book!
Ah! I was listening to her book when the episode landed in my phone :) Great to hear her on the show.
The Republican message didn't "win" the election. The Democrats' vacuous non-message lost. Yeah, same outcome, but different reason, and that matters.
That’s a factor outside of this cohort, certainly. But the Saddamn Hussein numbers were very enlightening to hear, to say the least
Those who don't believe things can get any worse just lack sufficient imagination. Am seconding, or thirding the bluesky recommendation, it's a lot calmer there and am reckon swapping addiction might at least reduce the existential panic our crew sound like they're caught in a Sisyphean struggle with, easing symptoms of overexposure to the swamp lagoon shitpit of shameless opportunist cunts 👩🔬
These past two weeks have been the first time I’ve heard the word “QAnon” outside this podcast. I heard it twice in the McElroy podcasts I listen to. It felt so jarring hearing people I consider to be mainstream and normal say that word
I like Jake's mouldy bagel metaphor. Also applies to the heirachies - some people already experiencing the "worse"
It was so painful tho 😂
Never fails to baffle how people don't bring up more often the apocalyptic death cult major part of evangelism in regards to sending all Jewish ppl to israel to kick off the 2nd coming of Christ - involving use of pure red cows bred n transported from Texas - that supposedly "sends to hell" anyone who doesn't convert starting with dangled-as-metaphysical-bait Jewish communities there. It's a most unhinged underexposed yet vital elastic thread pulling back the cognitive dissonance of ongoing horrific war crimes and the supposed moral arbiters of faith excusing and ignoring everything they can as they remain the largest source of Zionist lobbying still. Is a core issue (or intended design?) with ideology prioritising a hypothetical afterlife over the everyday human struggle: tangible daily suffering means nothing unless you bend the knee and oppress all beneath the alleged hierarchy an alleged god has blessed upon you. (Wealthy white US Mormons share a lot of overlap here too, it should be noted) America would rather tear itself apart than let go of their stated "favourite unsinkable aircraft carrier" - for long-term foreign policy aimed squarely at resource/capital control/extraction in the middle east not only refuses to change, it has made absolutely clear for decades as loud as it can that voters will not be allowed a democratic say on those matters and will be aggressively dealt with if they dare try, if not placated by mistruthes while policy continues under the radar. --------------------------------------------------- Ooh, talking of Christian political fascist takeovers, have you peeps got any plans to cover the recentish revelations about the international lobbying group/Vatican side-project 'Opus Dei' pushing extremist reactionary politics around the world for half a century with members already including supreme court judges, their wives, Leanord Leo and many other politicians? - Yes, the literal real cult from the Davince Code but with less albino ninja monks and more successful authoritarian lobbying and human trafficking instead. All cause some financial reporter was looking into some Spanish bank closure in 2017 -------------- https://slate.com/life/2024/10/what-is-opus-dei-catholic-church-meaning.html - (if you covered it already and I'm being a silly titty biscuit, much apologies, please ignore ramblings lol!)
This is such a quality conversation. Thanks for getting this episode for us!
Isn't part of the reason for the Oct 7 attack/uprising because the Texan red heifers were at the age they could be burned alive as part of that "purification" ritual and that signs were the intent was to go ahead with it? Which is obviously absolutely insane, any aspect of that ritual.
Terrific episode, somber. But great
When are we getting "We're so cooked" merch?
Can we also not toss around schizophrenia as a way to discredit what people are posting on X? As someone who works with people who have been labeled thus I think y'all should be aware of how that can hurt. So-called "sane" people can be just as delusional, if not more.
One of the best interviews to date. Big yes.
You know that DeLoreans didn't time travel off the showroom floor, right? I mean they went forward in time, but just at the normal rate.
Not a day goes by that I don't thank God I'm an atheist. Great episode, thanks!
My mom was a big Dr. Dobson fan and my dad loved Rush. No wonder I’m so fucked up. Freak show
St. Liv of Agar
Anxiety is not faulty genetics, it's more that our late-capitalist hellscape reinforces fight-or-flight processes in our nervous system. Since the threats are diffuse throughout our world today, and we are built for mobilizing efforts to evade short-term threats, it makes sense why this mismatch leads to anxiety.
We really need a crusader kings 3 episode. Trumps defense secretary hagseth has the games motto tattooed on his body: deus vult. There are players who can't stomach the thought of conquering italy with a horde of zoroastrian Uzbeks.
There’s a time and place for Julian but I also appreciate when it’s just the other two boys because I feel like the episodes are way more concise
💯
Christian nationalists are awful wow
One of the best guests you’ve ever had. As a non-American, it can be hard for me to get a handle in the uniquely American forms of extreme Christianity. I didn’t know what to make of Tucker Carlson’s hateful fantasies about beating children when I first heard that clip, so thank you Talia for putting this into context.
As a European where religion is so irrelevant by now ... these episodes are so wild!
I just wanted to throw in here that it wasn’t until at least the late Neolithic/early copper age that we have proof of a concept of “higher power”. Before that there is no written sources and so we are unable to with accuracy tell what pre/proto historical societies believed/thought. They of course were spiritual as seen through items found in graves, the placement of bodies and imagery etched/painted/drawn in various forms of rock art.
There are oral traditions, such as Indigenous cultures, which go back much further though. For instance, there is an Aboriginal Australian story that remembers when an island was connected to the mainland, a situation that likely existed 10,000 years ago. Thus, oral traditions can be a source that goes further back than written sources. https://theconversation.com/ancient-aboriginal-stories-preserve-history-of-a-rise-in-sea-level-36010#:~:text=The%20question%20is%20whether%20the,more%20than%209%2C000%20years%20old.
This was such an American episode it evem ended on "Let's eat our feelings"
Also required viewing on this topic if you can access BBC content… Storyville: Praying For Armageddon. https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001z96s
Early comment for Jake: glad you walked that back, you’re obvs top 50 Trump impersonators
By… divine or devilish coincidence? The copy of Wild Faith i ordered showed up on my doorstep at almost exactly the same time as this ep dropped. Can’t wait to dive in. Devil’s Army, Hoo-Ahh!!
I listened to the audiobook and I loved it!
That was an excellent opening preamble
As someone born and raised in Utah, a place where the most insane worldviews are standard fare, women are Stepford Wives and they monetize abducting and abusing children in wilderness camps, I *thought* I got away from this shit. What I didn't know when I left is that it's not just a Mormon thing. But I think it's worse now, in more subtle, systemic ways -- little ways that people might not notice until it's too late. Like slowly changing the colour of an object until it is an entirely new colour and you're like, 'didn't that used to be yellow?' It's probably a weak example, but I often answer these surveys for consumer panels and other types of studies. Recently, I noticed that all the options for religious affiliation are Christian denominations. Like, ALOTTA them, some I've never even heard of. The only other option is "None of the Above." I might be crazy paranoid, or it might be a sign of the times because Muslims and Jews at the very least used to get a check box. Mostly, I wish there were actionable opportunities to effect positive change for those of us who are not satisfied with screaming into the socialmediaverse. I have a lot to give, but I don't really know where to put it. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone.
As a UU seminarian, I think about this a lot. How we cannot cede the idea of faith to one of the worst examples of faith ever conceived.
Yay Lovin the Lavin. Better to bake with Jake than with my sh*tty mother in law! Cant talk got my podcast on! ☺️. Rather a Travis view than a view of endless wicker furniture and cabbage patch ephemera from the tortured childhood of my partner.
Also love Talia Lavin as a guest. I will eagerly slurp up more Tania. Absolutely fascinating 😊
Jake I am such a stan, I am more Traviscally oriented to the world but the more time goes on, the more the Jake pill wins me over. This is a feast for my eardrums ❤️
Julian Feeld eez nuts
"I can't believe you've done this"
liv agar ㅠㅠ
L I E S
Talia Lavin!