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December 23, 2018

Update on the future of my use of Patreon

Many of you will have seen my recent text post in which I shared with you my concerns about Patreon's apparent policy of censorship.  I included an e-mail that I wrote to Patreon, which I had hoped would prompt from it a statement that would reassure me.  I had no reply to that, so I wrote others, some of them short, but I got a bit carried away with one longer one (see below).

I have recently lost fifty patrons in a short period.  At least thirty-seven of those stated that the reason for leaving was this issue of censorship.  I do not feel that it is anything bad that I have done that has led to this.  I respect the decisions of all those patrons.  Some wrote to me personally to apologise.  

Interestingly, I also got a message from someone who has decided to become my patron here because I have said that I might leave Patreon!  The world is wonderfully complex.


I have now had a reply from Patreon, and have set up a Skype meeting with one or two of the staff there for early in January.  Until then, I shall take no action.   It seems right to give Patreon a chance to tell its side of the story, and to describe what it intends to do in the future, before I make a decision.  I am aware that the internet creates little self-reinforcing 'bubbles' that can lead to one user's getting a very one-sided impression of an issue.  

I do not know whether I shall leave, but I am sure that if Patreon fails to assure me that it will defend my free speech in the future, then my leaving is very likely.  There is some middle ground, which would involved my keeping this account running and opening another on another patronage platform.  At present, however, the alternatives available are not great.  Subbable was bought by Patreon, StarSubscribe has been crippled by a PayPal boycott, and others are vulnerable fledgeling websites.  I know that at least three groups of people are working on alternatives, however, so there is hope.

For now, I think our top priority should be merriment over the festive season.  I thank you all for your support.  I know that I am lucky to have you.

Lloyd

-----------------------------------------

Dearest X (my contact at Patreon),

I do hope that all is as bright and sunny as circumstances allow where
you are.

I imagine that Patreon has had a bit of busy time of it lately, and
that it would be unreasonable of me to expect so soon a personal reply
to my e-mail of the 12th December.  However, it seems only fair of me
to keep you up to date with how things have progressed so far.  There
has indeed been a sudden increase in my patrons' cancelling their
patronage.  I only know for certain that at least fifteen of them have
cancelled in protest of Patreon's failure to defend free speech.  The
number is probably at least twenty-one, however, and might be a fair
bit higher.  The trickle is now a stream, and there may yet be a
flood.

I certainly hope that this matter can be brought to a sensible
resolution.  Patreon may perhaps send out a general statement that it
has reviewed its policies and has decided in favour of the defence of
free speech, and will put an end to the sudden and unheralded
cancelling of accounts.

I wonder if you have seen 'It's a Wonderful Life'?  If you haven't -
do yourself a favour.  It's a great Christmas film.  In it, George
Bailey, played by Jimmy Stewart, runs a building society called
'Bailey Brothers' Building and Loan'.  This is a institution in the
town of Bedford Falls that makes it possible for the ordinary people
there to get decent homes for themselves. George is given the gift of
seeing the world as it would be had he never been born.  Without him,
he sees that his company would have ceased trading, and most people
would still be living in slums.  Patreon is a bit like that Building
and Loan company.   Lots of people come together, pool resources, and
then many people are able to live better than they otherwise would.
The customers of Building and Loan are not all nice.  Indeed, we are
shown that many of them are far from nice.  That doesn't matter,
though, because the money of the nice people and the money of the
nasty alike go into the same pot that helps everyone.  After seeing
the world without his company, and after being returned by Clarence
(the angel - it is a magical film) to the world as he knew it, he
realises that he loves his company and the good it does.  Suddenly, he
doesn't mind all the surly awkward ungrateful customers and the long
hours he's spent behind the desk at the office when he wanted to be
out seeing the world.  I am sure that I would not get on well with
many of the people using Patreon, but that shouldn't matter.  I am
sure that I disagree, perhaps very strongly, with many of the people
who use Patreon, but that should not matter.  If people use the site
honestly, then everyone benefits.  But if George Bailey started saying
to customers, "Go away.  I don't want your money because I don't like
your face" (he wouldn't, of course, because he's Jimmy Stewart and far
too nice), then pretty soon the only way for most people to get a
decent home would be either to leave Bedford Falls, or be nice to
George Bailey.  In the world without George, we see that people have
to be nice to Henry Potter instead, the richest man in town, and he is
a man corrupted by greed and power.

I have written to my patrons, explaining that I may have to leave
Patreon.  I really don't want to.  In order to stay, I would need to
see some very convincing statement from Patreon making it clear that
it will in future defend free speech, apply its own rules correctly,
never terminate any account without warning or appeal, and pay no heed
to what people do in their own lives when it does not concern
Patreon.

I want to work with George Bailey.  He isn't judgemental.   I do not
want to have to grovel to Henry Potter.

There is no break-neck rush to reply to me, although I cannot wait
forever before making a decision.  At the current rate of patron loss,
I won't have many in a few weeks, so something reasonably speedy would
be appreciated.  Please put my mind at rest.  Let me know
that the boat is being steered by a good helmsman.  Such is the storm,
however, that a few soothing words alone will not see us through.
Patreon has sailed off-course, and if it has not realised this, then
there is no hope that it will be able to navigate us to a safe port.

I run a very low-controversy channel.  The most controversy I have so
far stirred up is an opinion on how effective the bren gun was in
World War Two.  Let us say that I am controversy level 4.  People will
always talk about the most controversial people of course, and these
will attract the most hatred and fuss.  Humans are like that.  If
Patreon kicks off all the level 10s, then the most controversial
people will be the level 9s, and everyone will be talking about them,
and they will be a constant source of annoyance for Patreon, and
attract all the complaints.  If the level 9s are kicked off, then
people will complain about the level 8s.  There is no end to this.
Whoever is the most controversial will be the one talked about,
because humans talk about humans and get annoyed most by whoever is
currently the most annoying.  When you get down to the level 5s, I
will be very worried.  Throughout history, some current behaviours
have always been unacceptable to the majority of people, while things
we wouldn't accept today were commonplace.  We should not be so
arrogant or naive as to imagine that we can be different.

Oh dear - I had intended to write a short letter.  I have failed.

I have no reason whatsoever to believe that you are in any way
responsible for any of this unpleasantness.  Far from it.  You have
proven consistent in your delightfulness. You are though, my one point
of contact with the company - my sole hope for getting my voice heard.
Please let your colleagues know of what I have written, and speak me
fair in this.  I want nothing but the best for Patreon, and to do what
I can to help it be as good as I know it can be.   The weak and the
fearful lash out at those they do not understand.  A good strong
company can embrace all sorts of customer.  It does not invent excuses
for its actions, but looks at them honestly, and when it has fault
pointed out to it, it makes amends and moves on.

Have a word with George.  He'll understand.

May you always have a biro to hand that works properly,

Lloyd

Comments (18)

S
Shaun Underwood · April 9, 2021

I'm new to all of this and this is the first time that I have come across this post.. the first moment I started being patron to Lloyds page I noticed a lot of things that I didn't agree with from patreon. Nothing is free anymore not even speech as it seems. To what I have gathered many will be sticking by Lloyd in the future as I will be. I hope that you can get this matter resolved. To be honest maybe bye now the matter has been resolved as I'm coming across this post rather late. Wherever you go I am sure we will go with you that isn't the problem. Support is support and we go where you go or at least it looks that way from many of us.

C
Chris K · January 10, 2019

<a href="https://www.patreon.com/posts/terms-of-service-23738908?utm_medium=post_notification_email&utm_source=post_link&utm_campaign=patron_engagement">https://www.patreon.com/posts/terms-of-service-23738908?utm_medium=post_notification_email&utm_source=post_link&utm_campaign=patron_engagement</a>

R
Ralph Hopwood · December 31, 2018

Lloyd,thank you for your recent posts and emails to Patreon. Last week I withdrew my support from creators whom I have enjoyed supporting for several years. I felt this was the surest way of expressing my concern with actions of Patreon.

T
Totally Tanked · December 31, 2018

Just going to leave this here, have a happy New Years all. <a href="https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2018/10/11/memes-infowars-75-fascist-activists-red-pilled/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2018/10/11/memes-infowars-75-fascist-activists-red-pilled/</a>

A
Anders · December 30, 2018

Level 10 has been kicked out a long time ago. So they have made "fake" patreon accounts instead so they wouldn't be kicked out.

T
Totally Tanked · December 25, 2018

As a former online provocateur I have to say that if I found myself on the same side of a fight with Jordan Peterson, Milo Yiannopoulos, and Ben Shapiro I’d like to think I’d have the sense to go home, sober up, and rethink how the hell I got to that awful place in that appalling company. None of those arseholes have any commitment to the freedoms of anybody but themselves.

A
Abel Cassius · December 25, 2018

Leaked Lloyd's Christmas card to his barely acquainted neighbor : Dearest X, My earnest efforts to remember your name having proven fruitless, I hope you will not find inappropriate on my part that I took the liberty to briefly glance upon a few envelopes from your mailbox. Our relationship to this day has admittedly rivaled in coldness the whimsical weather to which you and I have been forcibly subjected on this nevertheless beautiful December. I do hope you will believe my sincere words, however, when I say that I would elect for your quick nod and dry "Good day, sir.", done in perfect British fashion might I add, over the incessant vulgar, overly jovial, croaking of the French national with whom we were both... gifted to share proximity. Speaking of gifts, I do understand that I would be overstepping our agreed upon boundaries if I bestowed upon you such a thing on this festive occasion, lest you feel obligated to return the kindness, thus plunging us both into the nightmarish puzzle to grant each other the illusion of thoughtfulness with an object of roughly equal value. Far from me the thought, Dearest X. On the other hand, while you have certainly shown much appreciated reserve in this regard, your dog has expressed, with its regular behavior, a very different idea concerning the age old custom of gift giving. I am but a simple man. I enjoy my snow white, and I never quite could surrender to the trend of brown shoes. I was hoping you would reassure me that this situation has escaped your attention. You are well aware that I delight in starting every day by calmly standing on my porch sipping on a cup of tea, to which you are more than welcome to feel politely invited should joint sipping be an activity equally delightful to yourself, and therefore it has come to my observations that your four-legged companion favors none other but myself, not even the aforementioned local Frenchman. As this is a busy season for all involved, I do not expect an immediate explanation, but out of mere neighborly respect, I would find very deep comfort in knowing that the extra Christmas ornaments were in no way the manifestation of misguided loyalty, but simply the result of my everyday kindness and a healthy level of fear for the less tolerant for canine expression that surround us, the ranks of which I sincerely wish I will not be forced to join. May this joyous occasion be free from any further drunken pedestrian accidents, as it would tear me apart having to choose between breaking my back pulling your well nourished self out of the suspiciously entirely non-yellow snow or being charged with criminal negligence. Lloyd

W
William Adderholdt · December 24, 2018

Lloyd, I will definitely stick with you here, but I will be watching to see if you can find a better crowdfunding arrangement. Best of luck, and merry Christmas!

B
Barry Drake · December 24, 2018

Good morning, Lloyd, from a fellow Lindy hopper! I have been very unhappy with Patreon during the last year, when (on some channels unrelated to yours) they transitioned from being from "not defending" free speech to oppressing free speech, apparently on the basis of personal whim. Accordingly, I have reduced my support of content creators through Patreon over 80% as I have been able, mostly through direct support through PayPal. If you would be so kind to provide a PayPal address such as lindybeige@gmail.com for us, I would be more than happy to support you in that manner and tell Patreon to perform some sort of rude act instead. Keep on Swinging! -- Barry P.S. Sir, Happy Christmas to you and your family!

U
Ub McBlub · December 26, 2018

I'd be happy to have the PayPal option as well. 1. Supporters can leave Patreon, and it's clearly /their/ decision (rather than unilaterally forced by the creator leaving). 2. Others can continue their support on Patreon as before.

N
Noisy Andrew (partymeeple) · December 24, 2018

What, why, when where you censored (I skimmed though all those characters above, but may have missed an explanation)? Those politically correct conservatives are the bane of us all! Maybe we can fill beige tennis balls with Euros and hurl them at England for you?

N
Noisy Andrew (partymeeple) · December 24, 2018

Ah, I see. Thanks. And "Progressive extremist" sounds like an oxymoron? I think People who are extremists are actually regressive. The folk of today seem to forget that the root of political correctness started centuries ago. When lords and ladies expected other people to refer to them in a particular (and respectful) way. Now that lesser types wish to be addressed in a way they choose? The conservatives get all pissed and start banging on about it. Ironic really.

E
Eden Bellmann · December 24, 2018

I think there is a point to be made, that freedom of speech doesn´t automatically include the right to offend people by using words that are commonly agreed to be swear words. And I completely understand that a business may want to allow the one but find the other problematic, because there may not only be the one side who sais: If you ban this person, we will leave" but also the other side that says "If yiou DON´´T ban this person, we leave" and being a business, chances are, that the company will give in to the voices that bring them more money.

C
Chris K · December 23, 2018

There was a similar controversy over providers of adult ( /adolescent ) content being censored on Patreon last year. A modus vivendi was reached. I expect that some compromise will be achieved in this case too. Patreon is a business, it's choices ultimately relate to what makes or loses it money. Losing providers and subscribers gets their attention more than complaints, but an internet-wide controversial individual is probably doing more reputational harm than they're worth. As far as I'm concerned I would prefer Patreon to allow everyone to put up what they want, and get paid whatever they can raise. Nobody has to subscribe. But I understand it is a business, and has no obligation to provide it's services to anyone.

J
Jeff Toon · December 23, 2018

I have stated on to some of my other Patreon's that I fully agree with their decision as to whether they leave Patreon or not I don't want to stop fundiong creators because of the arbitrary nature of their decision's. I back you 100% on whatever decision you make. Oh and Merry Festivities Lloyd. 🎄🎁🎁

K
Kent W.Fevurly · December 23, 2018

I am so tired of the toxic political atmosphere in the US! I don't know what it's like in UK, Europe, or Canada, but here it seems like EVERYTHING is "You're either for us or against us! NO COMPROMISE! NO SURRENDER!" I yearn for a return to civility and open discussion and tolerance. Peace and prosperity to you, Lloyd, and all your followers. Merry Xmas.

A
Aelric FitzWilliam · December 23, 2018

I am not happy with Patreon's decision to jump into the position of judge for content providers but I am not abandoning my support yet.

L
Lindybeige · December 23, 2018

A totalitarian country monitors all its citizens all the time, looking for evidence that they are stepping out of line with the Party, and it rules through fear. Its secret police have the power to swoop and make citizens disappear overnight. Free countries are governed by laws, and the state and the judiciary are separate.