Radio War Nerd #269 — Songs of the Defeated
Recorded: February 17, 2021
Defeatism: it's the ideology of Radio War Nerd, and the subject of this episode. The War Nerd walks us through our defeatist ancestors through their poems and songs of defeat in wars, from Karbala to Vietnam, and many defeats between.
Links to songs & poems mentioned:
-“Ruby Don’t Take Your Love To Town” by Kenny Rogers
-"Born In The USA" by Bruce Springsteen
-"Johnny Cope"
-"Parcel of Rogues In a Nation" by Robert Burns
-"Ye Mosht Sarbaz" by Hichkas
-"Poem from Outside a Muharram Procession" by Tabish Khair
-"When Johnny Comes Marching Home"
Total time: 1:59:00
Comments (30)
Whenever you talk about how the Scottish became the big go-getters of the British Empire all I can think about is Uncle Scrooge from DuckTales and the old 1940s-60s Disney duck comics. Carl Barks knew colonial-adventure tropes like he knew the palm of his hand
Oh, THAT was where the 'McDuck' came from!
Great episode. Towards the end you mentioned the English Catholic martyrs; and their lack of memorial within England itself - I am happy to be able to report they are far from forgotten, at least within the elite Catholic schools of the Commonwealth.
I attended a Jesuit school in Australia, which, due to the large Irish underclass, has a tradition of seperatist Catholic schooling at least as old as the public schooling system - our potential first saint is one Mary MacKillop, a religious school founder. By the end of the 19th century, the Catholic education system had developed into a "public school" stream, diocesan schools run by local parishes for largely ethnic Irish (and later Italians as the succeeding Catholic migrants), and a series of elite colleges for the new Catholic middle classes (not all of whom were ethnically Irish) run by Jesuits, Dominicans, Franciscans, Carmelites, etc. I was in some ways lucky enough to go to one of the prestigious Jesuit schools, and was make highly and acutely aware of the many English martyrs - and their various methods of execution. In fact, the school followed the practice of dividing the students into various colour teams for sports carnivals - Yellow, Green, Blue and Red. In my school's case, each was given a patron saint - John Ogilvie, Nicholas Owen, Robert Southwell and Edmund Campion - each more brutally dispatched than the last.
Not an expert here, but IIRC the fighters at Masada being holy (and useful) martyrs is 100% an invention of modern Zionism. The biggest historical source of the Masada story is Josephus the Jew, from the Roman Empire. Josephus portrays them as psychos who were so extreme that they got expelled by the other Zealot factions and were as much of a threat to their fellow Jews as to the Romans. There is an issue that you have to consider the source though. Josephus started out as a Zealot rebel, but switched sides to the Romans and ingratiated himself into their leadership. His writings were generally focused on trying to convince his fellow Jews that the Roman Empire was their best chance for survival, and to convince the Roman leadership to let Jews become full citizens. So the idea that he would portray a faction of the Jewish rebels as bad and imply that it was good that the Romans beat them was something in keeping with his political goals.
Good to know. That's the thing about sources, there ain't no pure ones. 'Cept us.
Great Episode. I just now was able to listen. If you are still reading these- John Brown's Body morphed into "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" which, I think, is why you both thought it was a hymn. We used to sing it in my mid-western Catholic Church (Also prayed for the Vikings to win). Also, U.S. martyr sons- "Goodnight Saigon" Billy Joel, "Still in Saigon" Charlie Daniels Band. If you want more you have to search U.S Country songs, actual working class not middle class which tried to forget as soon as possible. Every Family in my town had a Vietnam or Korean vet.
That brings back memories. I remember the ushers at Mass whispering to each other. Turned out the Raiders had pulled off a last-minute win at the Heidi game. That's a good tip on Country. I realize Kenny Rogers isn't, uh, the real stuff.
Karbala was in the 600s ad not 6 ad. Watch this: https://youtu.be/2lRx5apNZUM
Wait, we said that? If so, it was a slip of the tongue.
There’s a lot of old workers union songs that fit into this category.
Yeah, it's a huge category. We found that when we started researching the topic. In some ways, defeat is a more congenial material for literature than victory.
Hi guys. The book of Lamentations in the Torah (Old Testament) is dedicated to the downfall of Jerusalem at the hands of the Babylonians in 607 BCE.
Blame Mark! He slept through Hebrew school.
Born in the USA goes how powerful a catchy chorus is. He plays it by himself with an acoustic guitar and it’s a whole different song
I like that song. And it led to some fun stuff, like a movie, "Born in East LA" by Cheech Marin. I saw it and liked it, but it was ahead of its time.
Great episode. Was a bit surprised you didn't talk about "the rising of the moon" in the Ireland section. Unrelated, but any chance for an episode on the MIT/Turkish military?
MIT deserves many episodes. We should get on that. About "The Rising of the Moon", I grew up with my father and uncle singing that song, so I'm probably wary of it. I try to sort of lean away from that background and be all objective-like.
It's not quite the same -- it's not about war per se -- but 'Joe Hill' ticks a lot of the boxes here, I think. It reinforces both the defeated group's account of where the defeat came from and what it does and doesn't mean for the future, while also transmuting that defeat into a foundation for a type of victory. This is interesting, I think, because for better or for worse, it seems to me that the (tiny, weak) US left looks back to this era of activism -- in which their forebears were stronger, but were soundly defeated -- as an important source of inspiration, which gives it this romantic tinge in common with the other 'martyr cultures' discussed here.
also I think you got "Martyrs of Khuzestan" mixed up with "Ye Mosht Sarbaz" (which is just about Hichkas and his crew being rebel badasses who also love God, their families, and the flag... it's like American country music a little)
On Scottish independence, I've seen people bringing up the Auld Alliance--Scotland's medieval links with France mean that Scotland (unlike insular England) is a natural part of Europe today! The implication being that Scotland is too modern and refined for racist olde England...
I went on two hour bicycle sprint while listening to this. Such motivation.
Mary Tudor and Mary Queen of Scots were not the same. Your Neitzche quote reminded me of Reagans excuse for Iran Contra Lol. Johns explanation of the workings of a poem (Black Fitz William) was helpful. It made how poetry is crafted more intelligible for me.
Thanks! Once you realize poetry is something put together very carefully for a purpose, it gets a lot more interesting and a lot simpler.
When will this mix tape be mailed out? The kenny rodgers and the first edition version of the song is far superior. His bass playing is sublime. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1e9p6J89rQ
"Then advances Tsar Lazar the Glorious, With him moves a might host of Serbians, Seven and seventy thousand chosen warriors. They disperse the Turks upon Kosovo, No time had the Turks to look upon them, Still less time had they to stem the onslaught; Tsar Lazar and all his mighty warriors There had overwhelm'd the unbelievers, But--the curse of God be on the traitor, On Vuk Brankovitch,--he left his kinsman, He deserted him upon Kosovo: And the Turks o'erwhelmed Lazar the Glorious, And the Tsar fell on the field of battle; And with him did perish all his army, Seven and seventy thousand chosen warriors. All was done with honour, all was holy, God's will was fulfilled upon Kosovo."
What happened to "The Night They Brought Old Dixie Down" by the Band
The Serbian people have built almost their entire identity as a people around their epic defeat at the Battle of Kosovo.
Really great episode, Poem from Outside a Muharram Procession was incredible.
This sounds like an all timer.