Radio War Nerd EP #239 — The Anti-Populists, with Thomas Frank
Guest: Thomas Frank, author
Recorded: July 21, 2020
Author Thomas Frank talks about his new book "The People, No" — on the whole sordid & infuriating history of elitist anti-populists, from the 1890s through today's Democracy Scare.
Buy Thomas Frank's book "The People, No: A Brief History of Anti-Populism". Check out his website and his gallery of Gilded Age anti-populist cartoons.
For more, check out previous Radio War Nerd episodes on populism & anti-democratic politics: EP #161 - "Populism" vs populism; EP #205 - Recovered History of Neoliberalism & Fascism.
Total time: 1:52:48
Comments (20)
Wanna thank y’all for having Thomas Frank on! I’m already deep into my second of his books since this ep
He was a great interview. Very lively voice.
Anyone have a link to that Nugent on Hofsteader article Frank was talking about?
https://www.insidehighered.com/views/2013/11/27/review-walter-nugent-tolerant-populists-kansas-populism-and-nativism
Great interview. I would be interested on the author's thoughts on Perlstein. They kind've share real estate as popular historians of the modern era, and they have both written some killer books. But a through-line in Perlsteins book is a kind of anti-populism, though it is not always so overt (his first was subtitled 'The Unmaking of the American Consensus'). Seems like a natural heir to Hofstader in that love/hate sense.
Perlstein writes some great books but you nailed it exactly, and this comes through in his current events posts. He went full in with Russiagate conspiracism and wrote love posts to the CIA as defenders of democracy. Big disappointment but you can see that defense-of-centrism theme running throughout his otherwise brilliantly written books.
No, John is a bastard, which is why we love him. If you want to hear about how Celine is actually morally superior to Orwell: http://exiledonline.com/big-brothers-george-orwell-and-christopher-hitchens-exposed/
Wait, why is Orwell a bastard now? Did I miss something?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/george-orwell-snitch-list-reactionary-grass-blacklist-communists-information-research-department-ird-a8414066.html
Really great interview. Frank nails a lot of the dynamics of the current political moment in the US. I think "elite failure" pretty much sums up what's happening right now, they lashing out to mask how badly they're doing. I'll definitely have to read the book. Have either of you thought of interviewing Peter Turchin? His stuff about Cliodynamics and elite overproduction fits pretty well with that. He's also a Russian expat.
Yanis Varoufakis in "Adults in the Room" claims Larry Summers told him this: "'There are two kinds of politicians,' he said: 'insiders and outsiders. The outsiders prioritize their freedom to speak their version of the truth. The price of their freedom is that they are ignored by insiders, who make the important decisions. The insiders, for their part, follow a sacrosanct rule: never turn against other insiders and never talk to outsiders about what insiders say or do. Their reward? Access to inside information and a chance, though no guarantee, of influencing powerful people and outcomes.'" Varoufakis references Warren's similar quote as well in the endnote. Great episode!
When Frank mentioned the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation I remembered that Lipset, the antipopulist sociologist, wrote his first book on the CCF. This is when he was a socialist. Bell was also an ex socialist, who knew a bit about the history of populism and American socialism (pretty much the same movements, as Debs and others came out of the People’s Party.) Hofstadter had been a communist. These guys had issues.
THE BEST CROSSOVER EVER
I wish you could release this to the public free.
Amazon UK lists the hardcover of "The People, No" at 320 pages and paperback of "People Without Power", which seems to be the same book(?) with a different title, at 224 pages. What's up with that? Only the latter is available for pre-order.
Really good
Re: Animal Farm inspiration - I haven't read Kipling's thing, but I found huge similarities to Yevgeny Zamyatin's We. Orwell reviewed We for Tribune, so he was certainly aware of it. The review was published after Animal Farm, but the similarities are striking. https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/freedom-and-happiness-review-of-we-by-yevgeny-zamyatin/
Pretty sure Zamyatin's novel was the model for 1984. But yeah influence is a tricky thing with writers, an "anxiety" as the feller said.
Mark's laugh when Thomas Frank talks about beer testing Obama! Excellent!
It would have been great to listen to you guys talking to Michael. Rest in power.