Radio War Nerd EP #185 — Perón & Peronism
Guest: Pablo Ben, associate professor
Recorded: June 13, 2019
"Peronismo" has dominated Argentina's politics for nearly 8 decades now. But who was Juan Perón? Was he a fascist, according to popular received ideas in the US and elsewhere? Pablo Ben, a Buenos Aires native and associate professor of history at San Diego State U., goes deep into 20th century Argentine politics to help us make sense of Perón and peronismo, and what we get wrong.
First 38 minutes: World of Wars, starting with a War Nerd gloat over correctly predicting the Houthi rebels' next hit on Saudi Arabia . . .
At 41:00 our discussion on Perón with Pablo Ben begins . . .
Total time: 2:55:54
Comments (25)
Hey. Long time listener, been with this since the eXile years, you've always been some of my favorite writers and i really appreciate what you do. But as a friend, let me just say that i feel you're sort of slipping in the chronological narrative department. This episode was interesting, to be sure, but there just seemed to be so many gaps and jumps all over the place. And of course, its limited what you can squeeze into a podcast, and there are so many things that you want to fit that its always difficult, but at least to my ear over the past episodes you've sort of lost a little of your capacity to keep it on chronological narrative. And, y'know, i'll manage, it's still interesting topics that nobody else covers. But still, previously i came out of every episode with a feeling that this was well done and incisive. Nowadays i very often find myself thinking that its interesting but unfocused. I want RWN all the best because as stated i still have fond memories of the absolute irreverence that was the eXile, and Dolan in purgatory, and NSFWcorp, and Pando and all that made you into you at current. And i like your rants at the beginning and whatevers on your mind at the end, but just ear to ear i feel there has been a slight decrease in your capacity to avoid unnecessary tangents in the main section for a while. (I have three new episodes to churn through above, opinion subject to change! ;) Take care!
Thanks for the feedback. We'll keep it in mind.
This is amazing. I was studying Latin American History around 10 years back and I kind of forgot all this. Mingling of governments with militaries and all that. And the Peronist ideology is really amazing. Something like the Campesinos political parties in the Andes.
Thanks. We should check out that link to Andean Campesino parties. We were lucky enough to see a march by those parties in Cusco.
Thanks ! Great episode guys !
Just listened to this for the second time and it was really great.
Let's meet at a Jimmy Dore Show in Brooklyn on Wednesday, August 14th. Other Lefties like Aaron Mate and Jordan Chariton will be there. It'd be fun to laugh with you two!
Fascinating information...thanks, Gabriel.
Henry, in case your interest extends to the dictatorship and subsequent trials, I've collected here https://judgingofdistances.wordpress.com/category/almirante/ all my translations of the book's sections that I thought could interest a foreign audience.
For some reason I'm advancing through this episode at about the rate of the British Army circa 1915, so only now got to the part where the talk turns to the Navy and why it was so anti-Peronist. Two excerpts from my father's book. Re the Navy's attitude towards Peron: ' An admiral of Massera’s generation states that the Navy was never really bothered by the “what” of Peronism –industrialization, quasi-Keynesian economic policies, high public spending–but rather its “how”: mass mobilization, Peron’s direct appeals to the people, denunciation of the landed oligarchy, and constant gestures towards an escalating populism that could destabilize the entire system. Naval officers believed that Peron was an adventurer, a demagogue opportunist who was playing with fire. That the general had come to power by popular vote only made things worse, since it allowed him free rein to take down the old regimes symbols and retaliate against everyone –in the Army and Navy especially–who had attempted to foil his rise to power. He didn’t actually eliminate them, but rather delighted in annoying them. This trait would eventually prove suicidal. If the “what” of Peronism was probably insignificant in terms of what any Argentine leader would have done in the economic conditions prevailing after 1945, its “how” was deeply disturbing, because it formalized the role of mass movements in the Argentine political system, the entry of the workers and laborers into what had earlier been the preserve of a landed oligarchy and the professional middle classes. In this sense sailors were not wrong to find something wrong with the “how,” since in the headlong democratization, neocorporatist chaos, embarrassing symbolism and constant paeans to the wisdom of the masses that made up Peron’s first government reflected the imperfect early political expression of a working class that was only now was allowed a voice in Argentine politics. The “how” was in fact the most genuinely progressive element of Peronism. (…) Peron’s megalomania, his insistence in “peronizing” everything, his neototalitarian aesthetic of gigantic placards with his portrait, his custom of appearing in shirt-sleeves to address workers from the balcony of the Casa Rosada, his almost compulsive drive to immortalize himself by means of new statues, portraits, and even naming a province after himself added insult to injury to Navy officers accustomed to thinking in terms of English-style liberalism. The figure of the First Lady, with her explosive combination of beauty, low origins, a taste for luxury, social resentment and populist activism represented for Navy officers all that was alarming about Peronism: Evita embodied the “how” of Peronism, its destabilizing potential. It was a sign of the ideological confusion of the time that Peron imagined himself as a sort of South American Mussolini successfully overthrowing a decayed liberal democratic regime, while Navy men saw themselves as irreproachable English liberals, when in fact the actions of both went in exactly the opposite direction. With Peron, who admired the fascist model and gave postwar asylum to numerous Nazis, workers voted in democratic elections for the first time in Argentine history, while the liberal and Anglophile Navy was behind almost every attempt to prevent them from doing so.' https://judgingofdistances.wordpress.com/.../peronism.../
On the Navy's social composition and self-image: ' To say that Argentina has a Navy may seem like an exaggeration. For most Argentines they are the service that used fighter-bombers against unarmed civilian demonstrators in Plaza de Mayo in 1955 [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Plaza_de_Mayo] and whose share in the Falklands War, its only campaign against a foreign enemy, revealed an utterly unprepared high command and an institution corrupted by long involvement in the dirty war. That the Navy is the service most self-identified with the British Empire may be shown by two sartorial details. One is that for a long time naval officers wore a sign of mourning in respect to the death of Admiral Nelson; the other, that their present uniforms –unlike those of the Army and Air Force– have no colors or badges of any kind that would identify the wearer as Argentine. That its only major campaign in its history would be against Great Britain was more than a irony, and it confirms the fate of those who attempt to ignore their own place in history. The naval mentality has been traditionally elitist, conservative, with aristocratic pretensions and a caste mentality. The surnames one reads in successive naval graduating classes are typically less patrician than those of their army counterparts, and tend to feature foreign surnames borne by second- or third-generation immigrants. This is evidence of an aristocracy that is trying to create itself ex nihilo and thus requires stricter codes of behavior of patterns of thought than those of a natural ruling class. Out of this came the identification with Great Britain and an “English gentleman” style of fair play, discretion, and good manners. As a service its politics were characterized by ideological purism and a strong desire to set itself apart from more recent generations of immigrants. Typical of the Navy’s political inclinations were rear admirals Domecq Garcia and O’Connor, who, during the worker disturbances of the Semana Tragica in 1919, harangued a thousand upper-class volunteers in the Navy Center with warnings that “Buenos Aires in 1919 is like St Petersburg in 1917,” then gave them the weapons and training to stage what was essentially a pogrom [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragic_Week_(Argentina)]. They viewed anarchists, communists, socialists, Russians, Jews and Central European immigrants as essentially the same, which was accurate in that these, as the most recent immigrants to the country, made up the ranks of a restive working class.'
For a great book on Argentina check out Incomplete Transition: Military Power and Democracy in Argentina by J. Patrice McSherry a masterpiece in explaining the complex history of Argentina by the author of the definitive book on operation Condor Predatory States: Operation Condor and Covert War in Latin America She’d make a great guest.
Frankly your guest goes way to far in trying to defend Peron on charges of Fascism anyone who has studied Nazi ratlines knows that tens of thousands of Nazis and eastern european fascists were settled there bringing with them a fortune in flight capital that helps explain Argentina’s sudden economic boom. former Croatian dictator Ante Pavelic was his security adviser. (See Unholy Trinity by Loftus and Aarons).
Is anyone else interested in planning a War Nerd meetup? I'd be interested to meet in NYC around June 28 - July 2
I’d absolutely be interested in NYC - anytime
A gripping and informative episode. Two million people with their aspirations went to receive Peron and he turned out to be just some ordinary politician. As Dr. Dolan pointed out this scene is straight out of a movie. R.K. Narayan's novel 'The Guide' is kind of like this. The Hindi movie 'Guide' based on the novel is pretty good adaptation except with a more palatable ending.
“Just some ordinary politician.” Far worse than a politician; he was a butcher. It takes a really lowlife beast to do something as heinous as that. I can easily imagine how completely disenchanted Argentinians must have became with their country’s political system after this incident.
Something I couldn’t help but notice: Peron’s entire face is smiling. That’s unusual for politicians who tend to take themselves too seriously. Usually only their mouth is smiling but their eyes are dead. I’m looking at you Hillary Clinton and Steven Harper. By the way: those are some impressive pearly-whites Perón’s got in his mouth there.
Just a few thoughts on the theology of Alawites and how it differs from mainstream Shia thought (if anyone finds this incorrect please feel free to critique it, I learned this in a class about early Islam and I may be misremembering). Alawites differ from other forms of Islam because they revere Muhammed, Ali (who was martyred at Karabla) and I think Jesus Christ in almost equal terms (I think all 3 were viewed as human forms of the 3 forms of God). So, they use more Christian theology directly. Also, I think Joshua Landis discussed this, but until recently Alawites were very seclusional when it came to their beliefs, and things like not going to a mosque was common. They also do not usually abstain from alcohol, and use wine in ceremonies like Christians. Again, this might all be misrepresentation by non Alawites, so any corrections are welcome. I also agree that there is anamosity against Alawites because of their power in Syria, but it also seems like there are genuine distinctions between Alawite belief and even mainstream Shia doctrine, let alone orthodox sunni beliefs. To a Salafi or a Wahabi, Alawites would probably be seen as a significant step below even Shia, who they violently oppose anyway
Can't wait for your thoughts about the latest in the gulf...
Might be interesting to talk to Robert Pape about his work on sanctions from the 90s "Why economic sanctions don't work" and "Why economic sanctions still don't work": https://www.jstor.org/stable/2539368 and https://www.jstor.org/stable/2539263
Regarding the jihadist hatred of alawites, on his first episode on your show, Joshua Landis explained that the alawites are considered something similar to Mormonism, in that they add in an additional profit and an additional book to the Koran. So while I don't really understand why Sunni jihadist would have any qualms about Exterminating the shia in general, I suspect they see the alawites as apostates that are particularly deserving of death. And I'm sure as you mentioned, being the religion of Assad doesn't help either
Hi Matthew, I agree. I wrote a comment on this too. I think I actually got most of my information from Landis now that I think about it. But yes, I would think that, from a hardliner sunni perspective, any type of negotiation with the Alawites would be impossible (even though it's clear they won't negotiate with even mainstream Shia)
Ah, just in time for me to walk my dog and then take a long bike ride. Excellent timing
Thrilled to see this, cos I argued back in my DEATH/CORNER series on fascism that, of all major recent historical figures, Trump most closely resembles Perón, and I'm very curious about yr take on him.