Radio War Nerd EP #90 — First Sino-Japanese War, with Carl Zha

Came into this episode 9 years late specifically to comment that I figured out recently that the Qing admiral Ding Ruchang is my great-great uncle

Came back to this episode after several years - because I just visited the Yushukan Military History Museum last week. It was pretty much as Carl Zha described it. It combines genuinely interesting pieces of history going back hundreds of years with an unrepentant retelling of WW2 or “Great East Asian War”. Comedic highlight: there’s a display about the various Asian independence movements “inspired by Japan” ranging from the more reasonable like India and Indonesia to SPECIFICALLY Ho Chi Minh’s North Vietnam with the red flag and everything!

Love When Carl talks about China. As Spaniard, When Carl talks about the French invasion of Indochina between 1858 and 1862. The Spanish helped with some units of infantry from Philippines (part of Spain in those days). Those were the days When Spain also intervened in Morocco (War of África), South América (the bombing of Callao) and the expedition in México (which Spain left with the English before the French brought the Habsburg emperor). Those were the last imperial wars were Spain was victorious before the 1898 War against USA... I Hope Carl will talk about the Imjin Wars soon. Thanks for such Good times.

Thanks to Mark Ames raising the question about corruption controversy revolving around non-explosive shells used by Beiyang Fleet, and Gabriel Uriarte 's facebook post comparing to Argentinian airforce's Falkland War experience; I did some research into this issue. It turns out corruption was not the problem The concrete or sand filled shells are suppose to be armor piercing shells! Back then they didn't have time delayed fuse. But it did reveal another problem! Because Qing Imperial Finance Department issued an edict suspending further purchases of foreign ammunition in 1891, 3 years before the outbreak of war, Beiyang Fleet had to rely on domestic manufacturers. However Jiangnan and Tientsin Arsenal at the time could only produce mostly low-tech Solid non-explosives shells. Only when War was about to break over Korea, did Tientsin Arsenal produce an emergency batch of explosive shells and they are rather shoddy in quality because of lack of tech and expertise. As result, when Chinese flagship Dingyuan set sail for Yalu River (to be ambushed) , it had only 55 domestically produced explosive shells. Those shells were used up in first half hour of the battle. For the remaining 4 and 1/2 hours, Dingyuan had to use solid shells! In contrast, Japanese naval engineer Shimose developed Shimose Powder from picric acid which is way more powerful than black powder and Japanese Arsenal managed to produce en mass. Japanese navy widely adopted Shimose powder in 1893, just one year before the Sino-Japanese War! So not a corruption problem but really lower level of technology and manufacturing problem compared to Japan which already leapt ahead. This really goes to show again that Qing China was mostly reactive. The Beiyang Fleet was seen more as a status symbol. As such solid concrete shells were enough for normal training purposes. When war broke out both the navy and its logistics department got caught flat footed. Whereas Japanese military program benefited from long term planning for conquest.

Great episode, guys. Just some brief comments: Nara *was not* inspired by Chang'an. That was Heian-kyo, the City of Heavenly Peace, which was built to replace Nara. Also, I wish Carl had touched on (what I humbly think is) one of the main reasons for the recent flare-up of Chinese nationalism: Tiananmen. Deng wanted Japanese investment in the 1980s but after 1989 and the collapse of European socialism, Chinese nationalism became a legitimizing force for the gov.

I'm getting sick and tired of you guys discussing the reality show called American politics and accompanying Russia panic in the "world of wars" segment, not so much because of its incredibly predictable awfulness/stupidity (again the line in between the two is not clearly defined), but mainly because of its shocking irrelevance. If you have to talk about this shit, please keep it down to 5 minuets, so you can move on to stuff that is actually relevant or at least genuinely interesting as opposed to just morbidly fascinating.

@Carl Zha: How industrialized was Japan at the time of the first Sino-Japanese war? There is no doubt that they had a front-rank military. But I half-remember reading accounts that, as late as WWII, the Japanese civilian economy largely relied on artisans and cottage industries.

Tortured analogy, I know....

It appears the democrats have turned into Captain Nolan at balaclava, shouting "there are your guns sir" indiscriminately pointing off into the middle distance. Shortly followed by the democrats charging into the electoral valley of death

Truly brilliant but what else should we expect!!

Admiral Sah Chen-Ping (Sa Zhenbing, 薩鎮冰)'s poem in Chinese and different English translations. 1st one is mine: 五十七載猶如夢， 舉國淪亡緣漢城， 龍遊淺水勿自棄， 終有揚眉吐氣天。 57 years like a dream, entire country's ruin started in Seoul Oh Dragon swimming in shallows, don't you give up, You will rise again with your head high and your bellow thru the heavens echo Alternatively, 57 years like a dream, entire country's ruin started in Seoul Oh Dragon swimming in shallows, don't give up, You will rise again with head high and your bellow heard thru the sky! Alternative translations from Chinese netizens: 1 A span of fifty seven years, a dream, From City on the Han destruction comes to all the country, beached dragon don't despair, the day of high head will arrive. 2 Dream, I has been wandering in it for 57 years, Seoul, the place the entire country had fallen from, Shallows, the entrapped dragon never ceased fighting, Roar, the trumpet of victory resounds through the earth and sky. 3 From Hancheng the Empire fell to its demise, Fifty seven years hence, in torpor, unable to rise. In scorching blaze the phoenix perseveres, ‘til the day of rebirth, ascend, and reclaim thy prize! Finally from Google Translate: Fifty-seven as a dream, The country fell to Seoul, Longyou (Note: dragon swim) shallow water do not give up, Finally proud of the day!

Is the text of the Sa Zhenbing poem up somewhere? I'm bad with searching for that stuff (illiterate)

Trailer for 2008 Taiwanese Hakka film, "Blue Brave: The Legend of Formosa in 1895" about Hakka resistance against Japanese Invasion after Qing Imperial Court has ceded Taiwan to Japan. Beautiful Music. The Full movie in Hakka language with Chinese subtitles available on Youtube, but I haven't seen any with English subtitiles. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDOrIh3H8SA" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDOrIh3H8SA</a>

Also, for any naval war nerds that want more detail into Japan's strategy and tactics behind the first Sino-Japanese war, I highly recommend Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics, and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1887-1941. Very detailed and informative but not too dense of a read as long as you're a military history-nerd.

As Carl briefly mentioned, Japan's adoption of Chinese culture in the 7th century can be thought of as its first "westernization" and it's interesting to note that Japan still drew on some Chinese concepts for their second westernization in the 19th century. For example, the famous Meiji-era slogan "Fukoku Kyouhei" (literally meaning "Rich country, Strong army" ) is simply the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese phrase "Fuguo Qiangbing (富国強兵)" which was lifted out of a strategy book from China's warring states period. Another interesting borrowing is the use of the Chinese phrase Woxin Changdan (pronounced in Japanese as Gashin Shoutan). This phrase literally means “to sleep on brushwood and taste gall,” and it’s used to refer how one should endure painful times in order to exact revenge later (the phrase originates from a famous historical episode in the life of King Goujian of Yue). Now Carl didn’t really emphasize this in the show, but Japan was deeply outraged by how Russia, France, and Germany intervened in the peace treaty to prevent Japan from gaining control of Liaodong Peninsula. And so this Chinese phrase became a popular phrase among the Japanese public, and it paid off with Japan’s victory over Russia in the Russo-Japanese war. Curiously enough, while the Japanese were uttering Gashin Shoutain, the Chinese were also uttering Woxin Changdan as a sort of nationalist rallying cry inbetween the two Sino-Japanese wars. In any case, it’s a cool example of how East Asian states all share a common memory of Chinese history and culture to an extent.

so chinese are weeaboos now...?

Great episode. I'm curious, have you guys done any episodes on the internal politics of modern Russia? As an American its tough to find actual information from people who have lived there and can actually understand the language. If not that, some book or show recommendations would be great.

Here's a good article about Qing propaganda prints from the first sino-japanese war: <a href="http://www.davidleffman.com/qing-propaganda-prints-from-the-first-sino-japanese-war/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://www.davidleffman.com/qing-propaganda-prints-from-the-first-sino-japanese-war/</a>

War Without Mercy is one of the best military history reads I ever had. As just a taste, I learned therefrom that the Japanese Leadership doomed the war effort by deciding that developing anti-submarine assets would be pointless, as Caucasians lacked the stamina for submarine warfare. That decision alone, regardless of the Atomic bomb, would have cost Japan any hope of victory in WW2.

We didn't have time to do a deep dive of Japan's Meiji Restoration which catapulted Japan to World Power. I would highly recommend NHK drama "Clouds over the Hill" (Saka no Ue no Kumo) which follows lives of three friends (2 brothers) thru Meiji Reform to 1st Sino-Japanese War and Russo-Japanese War. It's told from the Japanese perspective. YouTube link with English subtitles here: <a href="https://youtu.be/87YMLoT72z8" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://youtu.be/87YMLoT72z8</a>

There's a good collection of Japanese woodprints depicting this war at <a href="https://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/21f/21f.027/throwing_off_asia_02/index.html," rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/21f/21f.027/throwing_off_asia_02/index.html,</a> the other units also include the Opium Wars, the Russo-Japanese War and the Boxer Rebellion. Can't speak for all the essays but the ones by John W Dower were decent, as is his book War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War which talks about the different models of racism in Japan and USA and how they were mobilized throughout and after World War 2. I found this collection after purchasing the remaindered exhibit catalog "De hundra skratten" at Östasiatiska Museet in Stockholm last week as the afterword mentioned it, and I'd recommend any other listeners close by to pick one up, it's remaindered at 20 kr and is a hardcover with nice paper quality. Unlike the linked gallery it only reproduces the more cartoonstyled prints, but there's more of them and the jingoistic anti-Chinese harangues are translated on the facing pages.

OMG. You finally used some Militaristic Anime Art! XD (There's so much of this -- for absolutely shameless military fetishism google "Pixel Maritan")