FEB 11 2024 FELLOWSHIP DISCUSSION
Topics include: Purgatory, 1611 Cult, False teachers/converts, The person of Judas Iscariot, Simon Magus. Many thanks to Roy for allowing me to post Fellowship responses to his recent post regarding Proverbs 23:23. Max concludes the Fellowship with a message of encouragement regarding the body of Christ.
Comments (8)
Even from Matthew 10:1-4 we can (with some personal study) see that Judas Iscariot is the only one of the twelve Apostles that wasn't from Galilee (actually of Moabite/Edomite locale).
You raise a great question: did Judas repent unto salvation? And, if he did, then how are we to understand him committing suicide?
I think everyone appreciated your comment and perspective, because it caused us to clarify our own understanding of the passage. Also, the spirit of your comment was well received. God bless.
Thank you for the discussion, and I agree with all of the conclusions of the participants. I must apologize that I didn't write my initial comment clearly enough . . and was properly corrected by the group. When I said Peter was not refusing to "sell" the truth . . I really meant he did not refuse to GIVE the truth. Peter was preaching and was doing so freely. He could not and would not SELL what Magus wanted for money, and the scripture is clear that Peter refused to accept Magus' money when offered. On the "power" point with Magus . . I think scripture confirms my understanding that Magus was an unbeliever only seeking worldly things. Here is why. Magus was among those hearing the Apostles and would have seen evidence of the the power of the Holy Spirit at work as a result. He may have even had some brief period of understanding (like Judas). However, his offer of money for the secret to the power shows that he did not have the Holy Spirit in-dwelt and did not fully understand what the Holy Spirit was. If he understood and had the Holy Ghost indwelt, he would have known it was a free gift of God . . and therefore would not have offered money for it. The simple fact that he offered to buy the power showed that he did not understand it, I agree completely with all that was said about giving money freely and gladly, support of the church, etc. That tracks exactly with the point that I was trying to convey. Excellent explanation. Thank you for considering my comment with the group and all that you do. I greatly enjoy these subjects as you can probably tell!
Your discussion of Judas being a believer who fell away now leads me to believe that he was indeed baptized by Jesus. That was discussion we previously had. This reminds of another discussion I once had on Judas. Did Judas ultimately accept Jesus as his savior and repent unto eternal life? Matthew 27:3-5 "Then Iudas, which had betraied him, when he saw that hee was condemned, repented himselfe, and brought againe the thirtie pieces of siluer to the chiefe Priests and Elders, 4Saying, I haue sinned, in that I haue betraied the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to vs? see thou to that. 5And hee cast downe the pieces of siluer in the Temple, and departed, and went and hanged himselfe." So . . . Judas understood that he sinned. He returned the money. And it even says that he "repented himselfe". Does it matter that he repented himself when he saw that Jesus was condemned? He said he betrayed THE innocent blood. So it appears that he finally understood Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah, God. Does that show he accepted Jesus Christ as HIS savior? Even if he repented in some fashion, he then took his own life. This act alone makes me think that Judas continued to look for his own solutions to his problems and not trusting God unto the end. But I have problems with the idea that suicide is not like any other sin that can be forgiven (e.g. did Sampson commit suicide?). Finally, why does Matthew give an account of Judas AFTER the betrayal if not to show his repentance? Is it just to show the misery of the damned? It appears from Matthew's account that Satan left out of Judas before he hanged himself. Otherwise, why did Judas do all these things? The idea that these verses show that Judas ultimately accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and repented unto eternal life would solve an important dilemma for me. That is, an all-knowing Jesus would have known that Judas would betray him unto death when Jesus first made him his Apostle. It was necessary that Jesus be betrayed by a friend to fulfill scripture. It was going to have to be someone and that person was Judas, although he didn’t know that when he became an Apostle. So allowing Judas to see the error of his ways and repent afterwards would show God's perfect mercy towards a fallible sinner. Judas was also not the ONLY Apostle who betrayed Jesus that night. Peter denied him thrice. So we all fail . . hopefully to repent and gain greater understanding of God's love for us as a result. I still don’t know the answer definitively if Judas repented and is saved or not . . but I am sure I will find out eventually.
thanks for the encouragement
Thanks for the message. My personal memoirs regarding alter calls and giving: Regarding alter calls: A very long time ago I trained to do this. Charles Finney was a Pentecostal poster boy. They worship him (present tense). He was a "master" of it. He is considered a significant father of the faith. Some men practice this technique in front of the mirror. Many men passed on his "magic" (psychology) from him down through generations. I set up a tent for Richard Roberts (son of Oral) and went to 1-2 weeks of his meetings. He used to say, God is telling me 10 people will give 1000 dollars each. Reach out your hand and pray. Every time he got the 10. If someone read this from a church I went to I would be condemned as backslidden and they would whisper he is now in the world. Regarding giving: You give sacrificially. Every message was the Malachi curse message. Tithes are only for the pastors wages/church expenses. Senior Pastors are paid the equivalent of a corporate salary like a CEO. So a decent amount because of the responsibility they take for all the people, land, buildings and schools. Brian Houston only took income from his books he said (Probably because they called his church the Till on the Hill so it was a bad look for him to keep getting a CEO salary). Freewill offerings are outside the tithe. (Is tithing not freewill? Think corrupt bibles and slaves of Christ doctrine) However you are encouraged to give but not outside your budget (Although the emotions and guilt can overcome you to do that and call it a seed). You can get help with your budget to come to a place to be able to tithe/free will/missions etc. They have charities that help people get out of credit card debt etc and learn budgeting. It is a very thorough ecosystem of indoctrination that still has effects on me today. in many ways it mirrors the Catholic system of a "one non-stop-shop" for every age, race, need and education. It is like a spiritual Wallmart.
Hi Terrence, It sounds like you have first hand experience with the Finney method. Most people in the institutional churches have no idea that they are being manipulated in the most disgusting manner. We can only trust that the Lord allows such things to go on for a purpose that will one day be evident. In the meantime, we keep the faith and do our best to help people get free of Mystery Babylon. God bless you.