PREDESTINATION VS. FREEWILL PART 2

Great and profound discussion. Well spoken with regarding the points being made.

Good correction. Paul was a Christian so he could be called a saint while he was alive because . . it was a term used to identify other Christians. It signified a spiritual status at that moment in time while alive and in Christ. Yes . . while living and in Christ . . we are saints. However, we are not saved unto eternal life until we have endured until the end. Names can be blotted out from the Book of Life. Rev 3:5; Psalm 69:28; Exodus 32:32-3. The Roman Church has changed the meaning of "saint" and confers this title for their purposes . . after . . death. Their counterfeit "book of life". Clear blasphemy as only Jesus/God makes this decision. The word saint simply means someone who is "holy" or "sanctified" by Jesus Christ and refers to those who are "in Christ". I corrected my comment above to reflect this. Thank you!

Always remember . . no one is finally "saved" unto eternal life until their mortal life is over. You must endure until the end to be saved. Matthew 24:13. So there are no living "saved" unto eternal life. . . and Paul and David were not living "saved" unto eternal life nor were the audiences they were writing to. That is why Paul says we must continue to work on our salvation in fear and trembling. He also talks about running the race in full and obtaining his reward. 1 Corinthians 9:19-25; 2 Timothy 4:7

My response to these verse would be as follows . . Phillipians 2 . . This is Paul again pointing believers in a direction. Reminding them of the promise of eternal life. He is writing to living people who have not yet finished their race. We dont know if all of them will continue in the faith . but he exhorts them to continue the work with "fear and trembling" . . which, to me, is more support for the notion that nothing is pre-determined so dont take anything for granted. God only works in us when we allow him to, It is our choice to ask him into our hearts and lead us. . . . .Psalms 125:5 . . . again . . people make their own choices. For those who choose crooked ways . . God will lead them forward with the "workers of iniqiutie". If you choose Satan then you get Satan. But remember the prodigal son. You can always choose to repent and return to God. Most dont. But the angels rejoice when one does. Luke 15:10. Israel are they who choose to "struggle with God" . . those who try to do his will in a wicked world. They will have peace as a result of their choice to seek God. To me, again, this verse clearly show that people's choices will have consequences . . but it remains THEIR choice. God does not pre-determine those choices.

can anyone shed some light on this one? im stumped after trying to talk-it-out with those who do not seem to believe in freewill. i would first point out that these already appear to be Saints, in the chapters. Philippians 2 12 Wherefore, my beloued, as yee haue alwayes obeyed, not as in my presence onely, but now much more in my absence; worke out your owne saluation with feare, and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you, both to will, and to doe, of his good pleasure.

Very well said about how we learn scripture and how we gain understanding through re-reading. I credit a prior exchange with Reg here as helping me to understand the "predestination" debate better. I think we are in complete agreement now. The actual words of the Authorized 1611 are extremely important . . especially in this area. Where the word "predestined" occurs in Ephesians, I think it has been hijacked by Calvinists to equate to pre-determined. Remember, in Ephesians, Paul is writing to living people who are still running their race of life. They have not reached their destination. But Paul sees the path forward and knows where it will lead them if they cling to their faith. Therefore, he is telling them that, in Christ, they are pre-destined to salvation. Their path forward will end in salvation. But they must remain in Christ. Much of Paul's writing was about remaining in the faith . . exhorting and assisting fellow believers . . keeping their feet to the path.

Thanks for the debate. Sometimes we need to have our minds challenged in order to see what is true. God uses other people to challenge us. I think we cannot customize scripture to suit our experience nor our predetermined opinions. As in we cannot frame scripture around our experience I should probably say. When we go down that path it leads to obvious division but I acknowledge that we will never agree 100% on everything. Recently reading Romans I realized how that going through the Old Testament paved the way for my slightly better understanding of Romans. It was like I never read it before. Scripture witnesses to scripture. I saw Romans in a different way and am thankful that God has longsuffering with me. However, I cannot change Romans meaning based on my experience and just have to listen and be taught. How can the clay tell the potter how to do his job?

Very interesting thread, thanks so much for your input.

HOORAY part 2 :D

Yet, God does predestine certain things: the coming of Messiah, the second coming, the first resurrection etc. Whether he predestines things or not, does not diminish his omniscience, omnipotence etc. His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are his ways our ways. He is not bound by man's logic, or logic of any sort. He can do his pleasure; after all he also created the subatomic world, which often defies man's logic (a particle can be in two places at the same time (the black box experiment).

Yes . . you have made this point well many times. Clear scriptural support for free will. God gave/gives us everything including our ability to exercise free will. In this sense, our ability to exercise free will was predetermined by him . . however, our choices in the exercise of our free will are not.

I agree that predestination confuses the nature of God. Also, those who hold to "hard "predestination" insist on "once saved always saved;" but, in order to maintain OSAS, one must ignore scriptures that talk about blotting names out of the book of life; and, the fact that Jesus said, "he who endures to the end shall be saved." Thus, if we lose our faith by falling away, we cannot be saved. This is why most modern Bibles change, "no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand," to, no ONE is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:29)

Great point on the logic of Ephesians. The logic of scripture, properly understood, is undeniable. I made the same mistake as our friend in the group for a while. My problem was reconciling God's power with our free will. How can we have free will in the face of an all-powerful God? I think this is why scripture goes into such detail about God's nature and feeling towards his creation . . .long suffering love. He loves us and wants us to love him by turning ourselves to his righteousness. We are destroyed because we reject God . . not because he rejects us. This is our choice. Not his. If it were up to God, why wouldn't he pre-destine ALL of us for salvation? Some religions teach that he does. But then there would be no such thing as righteousness. No such thing as sin. God forbid. In fact, the concept of pre-destination makes God's righteousness of no effect. We cannot choose to love God if we are pre-destined to do so.

Once again, thank-you for your insights. I think "the speaker" has somehow managed to mix/confuse freewill and predestination by misreading scripture and cross referencing scriptures that don't apply to each other. And, though he says he is not a Calvinist, his arguments and use of scripture suggests he is one. Despite this, I appreciate his willingness to engage in this kind of conversation with a gracious spirit. I feel we (mature Christians) should be able discuss sensitive subjects without causing offense. (On a side note, I always point out to Calvinists that Ephesians does not say predestined to be saved, rather it says predestined to be conformed (to Christ); and, we are conformed after we are saved; thus, it is logical that having been saved we are predestined to be conformed.)

I will add that every knee will bow ultimately to Jesus Christ. Philippians 2:10-11. You cannot bow to something if you are spiritually "dead" and do not know what you are bowing to. Bowing is spiritual submission. For many if not most, submission to Christ will come too late. Because they chose NOT to submit while they were alive on earth. As an extreme example, Satan is a spirit and thus, he is not dead spiritually. He knows of God and is in rebellion from God. He is not in submission to Christ but will bow his knee ultimately and be destroyed. 'Dead in trespasses, and sinne' can NOT mean that we are completely blind, deaf and dumb spiritually because every living being KNOWS of God. Psalm 19:1. Those who will be saved are those who make the choice to SEEK after God (like Jacob who became Israel, i.e "he who struggles with God") . . and do not reject their knowledge of God or try to hide from him (like Cain) . . or live as if God's will for us does not matter (like Esau). I would equate Esau . . who sought God's blessing from Issac . . to someone who thought he was pre-destined to be saved regardless of the choices he made to sin.

I think the speaker's issue with "dead in trespasses, and sinne" speaks to our sentence of death because of our choices/actions/original sin . . . . not our state of being. We are alive for a short period on this earth and we have a . . death sentence . . because of sin choices brought about by our sinful nature. While alive, we have the ability to accept God's free gift of grace through our own free will. We cannot be said to be "dead" if God had predestined us to be saved. . i.e "alive". If God had predestined us to be saved . . or "alive" . . then Ephesians 2:1 is irrelevant and cannot be reconciled. The predestined would never be "dead". The only way to reconcile the two meanings is that "dead in sin" means we have a "death sentence". The speaker also makes an error with respect to the word "ordained". Ordained simply means invested with spiritual authority. The scripture does . . not . . say PRE-ordained. The speaker also talks about the Lord giving a heart to hear and see the Truth and equates this with pre-destination to be saved. However we also know the parable of the seeds . . where some hear and understand the truth and STILL ultimately fall away. The seed that grows up but withers and dies. This is a choice of sin over Christ. Also Hebrews 10:26 . . if we know the truth by God's gift to us . . and choose to continue sinning then there is no sacrifice. I am starting to fully grasp the true insidious purpose of this hyper-Calvinist concept of pre-destination because it destroys the need to follow Christ and repent . . ultimately destroying our perceived need for a savior and rejecting the sacrifice of our Lord for us.