MORE ON DARK LIGHT. YOUNG EARTH. FOSSILS.

The fact that God may have limited the universe, in no way suggests he is similarly limited. All things are indeed limited. God is not a thing and therefore is without beginning or end. He simply is; or, as he said to Moses "I AM." I think I'm basically saying the same thing you just said.

Agreed . . that is his prerogative. I would add that there is no way to quantify God . . so, when it comes to probability analysis, possible outcomes are infinite, not limited. It is entirely possible that the Creation is finite (and God limited himself with respect to it), but his ability to create certainly is not. Matthew 3:9 "And thinke not to say within your selues, Wee haue Abraham to our father: For I say vnto you, that God is able of these stones to raise vp children vnto Abraham."

I don't think it's splitting hairs. Knowledge of something and predetermining something are entirely different. If I predict the sun will rise tomorrow, my prediction will prove itself true, yet, I did not predetermine the rising of the sun. If I have a single dice with one dot on each of the six sides (and this dice represents all the possibilities and outcomes in a finite universe); if I cast that dice in a tray (the tray representing a finite universe), I can predict with 100% accuracy all outcomes. If the dice contained variables, perhaps 1,2,3,4,5 & 6 (a different number on each side, representing all possibilities and outcomes in a finite universe) and if I were God, I could predict with 100 percent accuracy all outcomes without predetermining how the dice would land because, as God I know all things, past, present and future. That being said, does God predetermine certain outcomes and not others? Certainly, that is his prerogative; he is God.

Of course, we cant impose our understanding on God and believe He must do or be anything a man says. His ways are greater than ours, he is no respecter of persons and he never changes. The only way we can know God is through his Word and the leading of his Holy Spirit. Therefore, when Peter tells us that Christ was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world . . it is a fair question as to when the plan of man's redemption was itself created. The Potter has the power to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Romans 9:21). So whether He has predetermined the outcome from the beginning or not is up to Him, not us. But the act of Creation is itself a predetermination of its outcome. And the Word tells us of God's foreknowledge of us and the world. Did Jesus know Judas would betray him before the betrayal? Yes. Did Jesus know Jerusalem would be destroyed before it was? Yes. The Bible is replete with prophecy that shows that God knows exactly what will occur before it does. . .whether this counts as predetermination or not is somewhat splitting hairs.

I believe God can know the beginning from the end without predetermining it. In a finite universe, there are a limited number of possibilities, and God knows them all. If we say that God must predetermine the future to know the future, then we impose an anthropomorphism on the nature of God. That is to say, for man to know the future (with absolute certainty in and of himself) he must predetermine it. God is not limited in that way.

Could be. Then as such, maybe Peter means post-Eden civilization when he is talking about "the world"? I am not a Calvinist (Calvin wasn't really a Calvinist either), so, maybe as you say, God created man and knew the possibilities and had the Lamb ready as a solution. However, this would seem to be at odds with knowing the end from the beginning . . unless the beginning is defined as when sin entered the world. Something we can ask him later :)

Hi Roy, I'm not sure if God "ordained man's fall:" rather, he made provision for the possibility; and God, knowing all possibilities, knew that man would fall. But, he need not have predetermined it to know it. ...just a thought.

Time is always an interesting and problematic conversation. Albert Einstein said, "Time is a stubbornly persistent illusion." I'm inclined to agree with him. Without events, time has no real relevance.

Thank you for the clarification and . . agreed . . . that is what you said and that is also my understanding of how days are measured after the sun is created. So I guess the question is "how long were the first two days" and does it matter. I would say the meaning of day. . "evening and morning" . .is the same throughout the Bible . . 24 hours or so. However, I don't think the length of the early creation days matter for the marking of time until the End. My view is that this "time" period began with the creation of mankind on the Sixth day because man is the only creature that can sin and sin is why the world must be remade. It is also my belief . . . from 1 Peter 1:18-20 ..that man's fall was pre-ordained before Creation. ("18For as much as ye know that yee were not redeemed with corruptible things, as siluer and golde, from your vaine conuersation receiued by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lambe without blemish and without spot, 20Who verily was foreordeined before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.") In my understanding, this verse indicates that Christ/God's sacrifice was ordained as necessary prior to the creation of the world. I believe this understanding to be consistent with the world being made FOR Jesus Christ/"God with us", and FOR those in mankind (the elect) who choose to join to Christ/"God with us". So . . for me . . this indicates that the creation of mankind on the 6th day marks the beginning of "time" as it is marked until Judgment Day. This is because the only timeline that matters . . .man's fall, need for a savior and need to re-make the world . . .was pre-ordained and only required man to exist for the timeline to begin. I also believe that this understanding provides meaning (i.e. the marking of time to the end) to why the ages of men at death are provided in the genealogies. (I am still working on an explanation of my understanding of 2 Peter 3:8 for you . . may take a day or two . . but a normal 24-hr day. . not 1000 years :) . . )

To clarify I said "as we know it." I didn't say that the "existence" of the earth and sun determine light and dark or day and night. My statement is in regard to measuring the length of a day. That is to say we mark our days according to the relationship of the earth and the sun, sunset to sunrise or evening to morning, as the scripture declares. I understand that light and dark precede the creation of the sun (Get 1:3). This is independent of the sun; yet, it seems the Bible measures a literal day according to evening and morning on earth, and that is relative to the sun and the earth. Thus, the Jewish Sabbath is measure by a literal day.

Day and night, as we know it, is relative to the earth and the sun. So, the question has been asked, how is evening and morning defined before the sun was created? I believe you are referencing 2 Peter 3:8 "But (beloued) bee not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeeres, and a thousand yeeres as one day." I've noticed most people ignore the last phrase, "and a thousand yeeres as one day." I don't think this verse is meant to be a formula, rather it expresses the fact that God is not subject to time. Rather, he created it. What do you think?

Also, some have argued that since the sun was not created until Genesis 1:16, how can a day defined by evening and morning be determined? Any thoughts on that argument?

I like the upside-down tree.

Indeed one can do the math, as you have suggested. However, it presents some problems as sometimes it's hard to discern between fathers, sons and grandsons in the ages of various persons. Also, you have stated rightly, "roughly," and I think that is my point. We can't be exact.

With respect to marking time from the "beginning', I think there are answers in scripture that it can be done at some level. . .and it goes like this. Adam was the first man. He was 130 when Seth was born. Seth was 105 when his son Enosh was born . . etc etc etc. Thereafter, the direct lineage of Christ is painstaking laid out with the father's age at the time of the relevant son's birth. These are some of the driest verses in the Bible, but, as with all scripture, divinely inspired and there for a reason. These verses establish that the flood occurred roughly 1656 years after Creation ( . . why I say "roughly" is not that the variation is wide but that Hebrew time-keeping allows for some minor variations that could add a year or two in either direction.) Thereafter, the genealogy of Christ established by the Bible is pretty clear, and connects forward even to today. There are particular contentions here and there about how "years" are calculated . . synchronizing Hebrew (moon cycle) and Gregorian (sun cycle) calendars, how years were calculated during the Babylonian captivity, etc. But the sum of the study on this subject puts us at or around Year 6000 from creation right now. Before I risk being labeled a "date setter" . . I must share my understanding that (roughly) knowing the current year from creation does not solve the question of when our Lord will return because . . .we do not know definitively from scripture that Christ will return at Year 6000 (even if we can calculate it.) There is biblical foundation for this belief, but our Lord is also long-suffering and will come when he will . .waiting until His fruit fully ripened and the harvest is ready. My understanding allows me to say that evil appears to be spreading in the world at a faster pace than ever before . . quickening as with birth pangs (Matthew 24:8). In my understanding, several end time prophecies have been fulfilled (eg. Revelation 13:3) and are in the process of being fulfilled. So . . we get closer and closer every day! Allelujah! And after all that . . . a wise believer once told me that we should not spend too much of our time "marking time". If understanding biblical timelines helps establish our faith, then great. But as Reg said, He will come when He will. And when He returns, He will want us to give an accounting of what we have done with the "talents" He gave us (Matthew 25:14-30). So . . maybe some of us NEED as much time as we can get :)

Thank-you.

Another great fellowship Reg. Godspeed with the Inter-"Faith". Take comfort in the experience of Paul in Ephesus and have faith that God will put the right words in your mouth to bring those whom He wills closer to Him. As you well know, oftentimes it is not specifically what we say, but how we say it. When we let our Lord's light show in us, we draw others to him.