The next game after LLtP
Note: This is a tweaked and expanded version of a post I made for Wizard and Grandmaster supporters a little while ago. I felt like the post was good enough to reuse. Apologies to those who already know most of the below, but you'll get more exclusive info later, so stay tuned. I have made this post public so that everything in here can be talked about openly, even with those who do not usually follow my Patreon and SubscribeStar pages.
Well, it's finally time for me to pull back the curtains and talk about my plans for the next project. Before going into specifics, however, I'd like to share some of my goals and philosophies behind my idea.
When I started working on this, I had several goals in mind that I wanted to achieve:
The game shouldn't lean too much towards the traditional Visual Novel style. Almost every adult game out there is a VN these days. I want to do something new and fresh, which moves us closer to regular games without sacrificing any of the porn.
The erotic content should be more readily available and appear more frequently. Basically, the game should be easier to get off to. LLtP spaces these things out so much, especially in the beginning, that it doesn't work well for those looking for erotic stimulation.
The core gameplay loop (i.e., what you spend most of your time doing) must be fun to play, even if you strip away all the porn.
The core gameplay needs to work with the story, not against it.
The naughty stuff must be an integral part of all aspects of the game, both regular gameplay and Visual Novel (VN) sections.
There needs to be a constant stream of rewards for the player, both in story progression and the number of things to do in the core gameplay loop.
The game must have a setting and content that does not bring it at odds with Patreon rules.
It needs to play equally well on a computer, using a mouse and keyboard, and on Android devices.
It must not be in the fantasy genre! I have covered my reasoning for this before, but to summarize: I've expended so many fantasy art resources that I have few left. Besides, I want to do something different. Preferably something that maximizes my ability to use any available Daz Studio assets.
In terms of art and music, the presentation should be at a level rarely before seen in western adult games. Static screens with nothing but an image and some text should be avoided where possible.
To put it more bluntly, I want to make a game that plays quicker and is more consistently rewarding than LLtP. I'm not saying that the LLtP approach is wrong, only that I want to do something different. I also want this new game to be just as focused on actual gameplay as it is on the VN parts. LLtP focused more on the VN aspects while spending less time overall on the gameplay.
Please keep in mind that I'm sharing my thoughts on this game early in its development process. It's still in the design phase, and no actual code has been written. As a result, I'm open to all kinds of feedback and can make sweeping changes based on it. So, anything I say in this post can change without warning. Heck, I might ditch all of it if nobody really likes it.
The New Game
My new game is set in modern times. In it, you play a male photographer who is building his career from nothing but raw talent. He is helped by a woman who's very much into the things he might end up photographing. I plan to make both these two characters playable. As you might already have guessed, the woman mentioned above is this game's Belle-like character. While this is a contemporary setting, I'm not opposed to making it more fantastic. I'd love to have feedback on this. Should I keep it believable and grounded? Should I introduce fantastic elements, such as superheroes? Maybe even some kind of concept that allows me to draw in elements from all kinds of genres? Let me know what you think.
There is no grand, overarching story here of the type you saw in LLtP, at least not at the same scale. Instead, we will focus on individual characters and their personal challenges. The story will be more compartmentalized and sectioned off. You should be able to approach many things in the order of your choosing.
Most importantly of all, The Game is not a pure VN. There will be VN sections, but they will be presented as "episodes" that you can play at any point after you unlock them. This might require playing other episodes first or achieving goals elsewhere. These episodes are not tied to The Game's updates, so you might see multiple episodes in one update in some cases. The VN sections of The Game serve to move the story forward, but they will offer little interactivity.
When not playing the VN episodes, you will be managing your photo studio. This is the big X-factor in this game. I want the act of photography to be a big deal, something you actually have to do as a player, taking control of the process and trying to make the best of it. You'll be photographing willing (but possibly reluctant) models in all states of dress (or undress) and all kinds of poses. Each model will play differently in this part if I can get things to where I want them. Your goal is to make these models famous and (hopefully) naked and (god willing) in your bed.
The photo sessions are a big deal in The Game. This is the one part that must be absolutely 100% right. It is what everything revolves around. It will not be styled as a VN. It should instead feature actual gameplay that needs to be engaging and addictive without ever becoming grindy. A player who takes an optimal path through the story should spend maybe 75% or more of their time in the photo studio parts. However, it will be possible to emphasize this for those who are really into the mechanics. Speaking of mechanics...
I'm a big boardgamer. I probably haven't talked much about that, but I am. I play tons of board games, but I design them too (not commercially, though). I have a fair understanding of what works and what doesn't in such games. I believe I can make compelling gameplay with worthwhile choices and satisfying rewards. As such, my current plan is for the photo sessions to be presented as a collectible card game (CCG).
"Wait, what?" I hear some of you saying. Hear me out! You will have your own deck of cards to build, upgrade, and expand over time by finding or buying new card packs. But let me make one thing clear right now: Under no circumstances will I ever, ever, involve real money in this. This is all about giving you goals and rewards for in-game actions. I love CCGs and opening new card packs, but I hate the act of paying money for them. I'm not in this to get rich. I just want to make a good game without the worst commercial aspects of the genre.
Want to upgrade your camera equipment? You'll purchase (again, using in-game resources, NOT real money!) cards that represent your camera during the photoshoots. Want to improve your skills? Those are cards too. Dealing with an inexperienced model? Tough luck. She's adding her own cards to your deck when you're taking pictures of her, whether you want her to or not, and those cards might suck. Better start improving her skills (cards) ASAP. Depending on the challenges you face, you might want to customize your deck by swapping out cards for new ones or upgrading them.
Each photo you take during a shoot represents one turn in the CCG, and each match is a set number of turns. The cards you play and the results of each turn influence how the shoot progresses. Want her to flash her boobs for the next picture you're taking? Well, you'd better set the mood with your next card plays. You will always see the pictures as you take them, so each turn will give you another (hopefully) sexy pose and state of undress to look at. That might sound dull, but if so, I'd like to draw your attention to the point above about the game's presentation.
I'm going to talk about the exact mechanics once my design solidifies. Suffice to say, the groundwork is already in place, and the basic engine is fully working in my prototype. Cards can be dragged around and played using your mouse or a finger (on touch devices). They can be examined in detail, giving a complete overview of what they do and what rules they are governed by. If you have played a modern digital CCG, you'll know the basics.
But I like the storytelling in LLtP! Won't your stupid card game get in the way of that?
Nope. Suppose you have ever played one of Fantasy Flight Games' Living Card Games (Arkham Horror and Lord of the Rings in particular, but also games like Marvel Champions). In that case, you'll know that it is perfectly possible to combine a CCG with a storyline. That is what I want to do here. I want part of the story to be told in VN style and part as card gameplay.
You won't have a standard dialogue with a couple of choices to make that rely on ability checks. That was how I did it in LLtP. In my new game, the cards played by both you and the computer (which follows a different set of rules from you) will all tell a story. Individual matches will be built around a scenario with unique events that you have to deal with. Maybe one such scenario is about a model struggling with her self-esteem during a shoot, requiring you to use all your skills to help her overcome this. Maybe she is upset at you and refusing to follow your instructions as you desperately attempt to rescue the photo session. All of this will be represented through cards, making sure that you can even play the same scenario multiple times and have the story in it progress differently.
The card game will not be an annoying minigame that stands in the way of the VN sections you really want to see. Both parts of the game will help build each other up, making the other one stronger. To see a game built around these same principles, have a look at HuniePop. While my game won't be in that style at all, it still shows the kind of balance that I want to achieve between two vastly different types of gameplay in one game. HuniePop without the Match 3 game wouldn't be HuniePop, nor would it without the VN parts. It's all part of the overall package.
There is one thing I really want to stress here: The card game mechanics in this new game will not be a minigame. Minigames are small, often poorly made distractions meant to keep you busy. The card game will be the central part of my game, and it should be fun to play. If I can pull it off, it should be what draws you back in over and over again.
But why?
Why did I decide to take things in such a drastically different direction from LLtP?
Because I want to. No, seriously, that's about it. I can't stand doing the same thing over and over again. Making another pure VN, even one as open-ended as LLtP, would kill me creatively. I need to try things that have rarely, if ever, been tried in porn before. A CCG in a porn game? What kind of crazy fucker would do something as dumb as that? Well, you're listening to that particular crazy fucker right now. Will it work? It should. Will it be popular? I hope so. Can this fail spectacularly? You bet.
But that's why you're reading this. I want you to help me figure this out. I'm not going to dive too deep into the mechanics with you guys right now. That comes later. In fact, I'm still trying things out and tweaking the core ideas to find the magic formula that makes these games so addictive and engaging. What I do want to discuss with you all, however, is the premise itself. Does this game concept sound appealing to you at all? What would you like to see me change, if anything? What should I be wary of? What pitfalls might I be facing that I haven't thought about? What would you most like to see in this kind of game?
As I said, this game is still in the design phase. If you want to influence it, there will never be as good of an opportunity as now. I want to hear your opinions, everyone! Good or bad, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Do I expect you all to like what I have presented above? No. Some of you are probably deeply disappointed right now. I understand, and I'm sorry. I just hope you understand why I'm doing this and in this particular way. But even if you are one of the disappointed people, I'd still love to hear why you are disappointed and what I might be able to do to improve things for you.
So, let's hear it. I'm nervous as fuck about telling you about the game concept. It could be one of the biggest faceplants of my life; it could be a huge success, or (more likely) something in-between. Feedback will make me more confident about the direction I take from here.
Consider this post a brief taste of what I have in store for you. There is so much more to say, but I want to take this slow. There is no rush. After all, LLtP still needs to be finished before I'll even consider publishing the first version of the new game.
Comments (33)
Some fantastic elements would be nice, there aren't many urban fantasy VNs out there; or at least I haven't stumbled upon any that were fun to play for me.
I'm not really a huge fan of urban fantasy. Not that I have anything against it either, it just isn't a genre I tend to consume much of, if anything.
The card game aspect has me interested. It’s just that as long as it’s not very convoluted, it could actually work. So far, I haven’t been disappointed so my faith in you remains strong.
The card game must be easy to grasp, and I believe it will be. It's quite straightforward right now, though obviously, the design is far from finished.
Sounds like a really nice idea. I for one like the concept.
It does sound pretty interesting and I think you can make it work. I would maybe take notes from Slay the Spire, as that does the whole turn based card game really well. Many even a sort of relic system that would add buffs or other effects? One concern might be the photography/modern angle on the game. I just hope it won't hamper creative ideas that LLtP was able to take advantage of due to its fantasy setting. This is only a minor concern since you said it could still include fantastical elements and you seem like a creative writer/designer already, but just to make sure lol.
If nothing else, a contemporary setting will require me to be extra creative so that I don't just repeat things other developers have done before me. I won't settle for mediocrity, that's for sure.
I don't mind the photography angle, sounds like your aiming for something like what Photo Hunt could have been. Enjoyable game, well done, but the photography wasn't really the driver of the story. Go for it, what your conjuring up sounds fun. Also glad to see you're planning an optional female protaganist. Too few of those. Best of luck, I'm rooting for you.
Thank you! The female character is not really an optional protagonist, btw. Instead, the game will most likely jump between different protagonists in different chapters.
As to your planned project is sound very interesting, intriguing. As a couple others have commented you may be trying to throw too much into it, but what the hell...go for it. I love the few who are really thinking outside the box. Even if you don't realize your current vision you don't fail, you learn. I'm sure you will bring us something fun and interesting.
The visual novel, when done right, can be brilliant. The creator PhillyGames would be the prime example. If you are not familiar I would urge you to check him out. City of Broken Dreamers is a work of art, everything a visual novel could be. Great quality art and graphics, a terrific story, and erotica that "fits". When you talk about pacing, the for me is what it should be. The story carries the erotica, you don't mind waiting. His first project Depraved Awakenings is also very good, but was the first eh. Do that one first and you see the growth in the second.
Heh, I'm well aware of PhillyGames and his games. In fact, I was one of the first two reasonably big devs to give him a shoutout when his Patreon was still small and struggling (these days, I'm the small fish), and we are both patrons of each other and have been for a long time. :)
I hope you pull it off, many creators don't manage to move away from VN mechanics without losing quality. You do seem to have a good plan though.
I plan to have this move result in *gaining* quality instead. Many adult game developers have never made anything resembling a video game before starting out in this business, and in that case, making a VN is straightforward while making something more complicated is not. I have game development (and software development) experience that should help a lot. The state of my prototype shows that I can pull this off. :)
Nobody has said this yet, so I'm probably in the minority here. But if you're soliciting feedback from supporters, I'll share my thoughts in case I'm not completely alone. The reasons I found and played LLtP were for the hypnosis and the aspect of Evelyn you had to remove. I was pleasantly surprised and impressed by LLtP for the quality of the renders, the various mysteries introduced by the story, and the sound, hence why I became a supporter. Several months ago, I played through the game up to the point where it seemed the progression with Evelyn was about to reach its expected conclusion. But when she turns the player down, I was so disappointed with and uninterested in the presented alternative that I stopped playing and haven't gone back since. I'll admit I never tried the walkthrough, so I may very well be missing something and not realizing it, but considering the subsequent changes - and how relatively mild and ancillary the hypnosis is to the erotic content compared to voyeurism and somnophilia - I haven't felt the desire to try it again. Of course, I completely understand why things are this way. I've seen other creators get hit for not toeing the line with their content, so it wouldn't make sense to introduce risky qualities into your future games. I personally don't see much appeal in photography, posing, and dress-up, but it's possible lots of other people do, which could give you broader appeal and widen your audience. (I also don't like having to look at guys, so having a non-faceless protagonist doesn't sound appealing either, but plenty of other people are probably OK with it. And I understand that it greatly increases your freedom when choosing camera angles.) In terms of the gameplay you proposed, it's cool that you're going for something more complicated and requiring more thought and strategy than discrete time management and dialogue options. But as someone who has played and grew tired of MTG (at least until Dimir rogues rotates :P), another CCG doesn't sound super appealing right now. That said, I'll still check out the first few versions you release to get a more informed opinion. None of this is to say you should do anything differently. You've obviously put a great deal of thought into this and are passionate about the decisions you've made. And whatever you end up making may prove to be unique in this area and popular among your supporters. But if you were curious what might be disappointing or uninteresting to some of us when wrapping up LLtP and transitioning to this new project, these were my thoughts.
You're criticizing something in LLtP that doesn't work the way you think it works. Evelyn is perfectly romanceable and has plenty of sex scenes (with more on the way). Just check her gallery if you don't believe me. As for CCGs, I would say that Magic the Gathering is a poor example of what I'm trying to do. That game is very random and non-narrative, focusing on PvP duels that don't tell stories in the slightest. It's also very, very predatory in its design. My card game will be a narrative solo game with strong theming. I mention a couple of examples of this style of game in my post above that you might want to look into.
CCG porn game isn't new. A CCG porn game that isn't a cash grab is.
Exactly! I love so many of the mechanics in these games, but I despise their often predatory nature. I want to preserve the fun while taking out the predatory bits.
Definitely impressed by the news about your new project and how you see the whole process, I like your ideas, I hope you will bring them all to life in this game!
Thank you! I'm looking forward to creating this game and perfecting it with the help of playtesters. :)
My first thought when I saw the title was "please don't let this be a 'slice of life' sandbox game or a card game", and it turns out to have elements of both. Well, you've earned some credit with me so I'll be patient and keep pledging, but it does worry me a little. Some of the elements you described do sound awfully interesting. I don’t have much useful specific advice here (beyond #3), but I can tell you the bad/dumb things I’ve seen in other games that made me groan a bit. You’ve likely already got some plans to avoid these traps, but I’ll post anyway just in case it is useful to you. 1) Purely procedural relationship development lacks suspense. (I realize the photoshoots might not be really a full “relationship”, but the same logic applies.) LLtP had a couple of taboo relationships, and you did a good job of building them up. Without that suspense (which implies immersion, since there is no suspense without it) we’re just looking at dirty pictures, which could more easily be done on pornhub. A card game actually *shows* you the arbitrary procedural nature; I might get a nice “cool, I drew a good card” moment but I won’t get a “oh my god, is she finally going to do the ” moment because the suspense was in the card draw, not the reveal. 2) Modern-day “guy going through life trying to get girls” is done absolutely to death. Having the embedded mini-VNs might go a long way to help with that, but they really need to stand out. The girls need to be truly excellent— hotter than the randos you run into in the studio—, with interesting subplots. 3) Take a good look at Lab Rats 2 (Vren ships his code) for a wonderful primer on the pitfalls of trying to have a game with a lot of procedural content; the business sim aspect is in some ways the best part of the game, but there is a lot of stuff that makes it just…. not much fun. He has some non-procedural characters in order to offer little VN-ish plots, but they are too little and since he keeps it 100% within the framework of the regular gameplay they don’t really do much to stimulate. 3) Slice of life games have to be careful to remember why we are here. Your example about the new model needing to have her self-confidence boosted just does NOT sound fun. I get that it’s a tactical problem to solve in order to get a reward, but from an immersion/RP standpoint it’s dealing with a whiney girl who needs stroking. That’s the kind of annoying thing you need to deal with in the real world to get sex, and many of us would prefer to not deal with in our porn. (Not sure how big a fraction of the player base I am speaking for here.)
btw, speaking of Lab Rats 2: Vren spends an inordinate amount of time dealing with clothing overlays. He's rewritten the whole system multiple times. If you're going to have procedural girls wearing procedural clothes, put a ton of thought into getting that right the first time-- there are not only game play and developer-QoL issues, but renpy performance considerations as well.
So...I have to admit that despite your best efforts to make this seem appealing, the entire description sounds like a horribly, grindy mess to me. And that despite the fact that I, too, enjoy some CCGs (I played Magic for years, as well as a few others). Generally, attempts to convert that into any sort of action system fall flat. While I've never seen it tried in a porn game, rotating card/deck action systems have been done in quite a few major games...and they're pretty much always an aggravating mess. Mostly as they make the player feel like they are at the mercy of luck instead of planning or play skill. There are also a lot more people that get frustrated with the randomness of card-packs than there are who enjoy them, at least based on my own experience with TGC/CCG game communities. I personally LOATHED buying packs when I played magic, instead mostly buying singles despite the extra expense, because at least that way I knew what I was getting for my money. The randomness of a pack was frustrating as hell to me, to the point that I eventually stopped playing entirely. Which doesn't mean your idea is impossible. Hell, before I played HuniePop the idea that anyone could make a Match 3 style game into something that didn't suck horribly as a porn game was one I never would have entertained. I'm just not sure if you quite understand how much you'll be working against the grain here. The mechanics you're wanting to use are both too complex and too random to lend themselves to an adult game with any sort of ease. Heck, what you described as your core loop is in pretty much direct violation of your own stated intention to make porn content appear more frequently/easily. Since each 'game' of photoshoot would force you to plan and think more than enjoy the content, with random effects beyond your control fouling each attempt. Doubly so if you have to repeat scenes because of it. That said, maybe you can make it work. Who knows? I'll certainly give it a try when you release your first bit of it, given how much I enjoyed your previous game. The one additional thing from your post I'd like to mention, though, which may help you a lot, is to encourage you to add as many 'fantastical' elements as you possibly can. To be perfectly blunt, your adding to your other griefs by choosing to do this game in a Contemporary/Modern setting. As someone who uses Daz3D for one of my own currently-under-development games, I can understand the strong temptation to do so, as there are FAR more (and cheaper) modern setting assets available than any other kind. Unfortunately, this also means that there are FAR FAR FAR more games that use a modern setting than there are any other type. To the point that I shy away from playing games with that setting myself, since most of them are cookie-cutter boring. With a modern setting, you're going to find a lot of people disinterested simply because that's what...everyone else is doing. Knowingly or unknowingly, you did yourself a major favor by tackling a fantasy setting with Long Live the Princess. That made it stand out from the masses of other games to me, and I imagine a lot of other people as well, leading to me following you quite early. You'd honestly probably be better served by shooting for a Sci-fi setting, if you don't want to do more fantasy. But, if your heart is set on modern, you'd be doing yourself a favor to at least introduce as much 'extraordinary' into the 'normal' setting as you can. Doing so will help you stand out from 'Young Boy Moves Back in with "Landlady" and "roommates" after years apart' number 4732. Which is what a lot of people see when modern settings pop up at this point, particularly a modern setting done with Daz. That doing so should also help you stay away from the most common models and assets used by those games is also a major plus...
Have a little faith. I believe I've earned some after these last few years. :) My game won't be cookie-cutter in its use of the modern setting or the art in general. I have plans for how to make it stand out visually and tonally, but those are things we'll get back to when we start talking about the story and the art later. Your criticism of card mechanics is understandable and mostly comes from having played games that want to encourage you to keep buying card packs forever. They do this by making booster packs feel both rewarding and frustrating at once. Rewarding in that you get a little endorphin spike from seeing your new cards (maybe even a good one or two), and frustrating in that you almost never get exactly what you want. They do this because if you got what you want, you'd stop buying cards, and then they'd stop earning money from you. I don't care about that. All your cards will be earned in-game through imaginary money. I won't get a dime from any of it, which is exactly how it should be. As a result, I can skip the frustrating part of opening a pack and balance everything around making it rewarding every single time. This is something I'm going to really, really focus on getting right. Opening a pack should be fun, and that's what I want to make it. As for grind, people say that making a sandbox VN with stats to increase leads to a grindy mess too, but look at what I did with LLtP. I'm aware of the pitfalls of these game genres and believe I possess the creative spark to avoid them for the most part. Games like Magic: The Gathering and Hearthstone belong to the old guard of CCGs, and they are indeed very grindy. Modern card games don't suffer from the same thing, at least not anywhere close to the same degree. The card matches in my game should be brief, unique, and let you move on once you're done with them. The ones that require lots of fiddling with your deck to even get through them should be optional challenges, not mandatory ones. Believe me, I don't want to frustrate or annoy my players. So again, have a little faith. I never add a feature to my games without a purpose, and I will drop any feature that I deem not fun, no matter how near and dear to my heart it is.
My 3 cents in regards to frequency of naughty stuff. In LLtP I much more preferred passive changes in character behaviour toward MC (magically induced or otherwise) then full on scenes. Will something like that still be part of gameplay?
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here. Are you talking about things like Evelyn's ever-diminishing dress code at home?
There are a lot of games where you play as a photographer. Most of them are not worth playing. However I think you can do it. With LLTP you rased already the bar for other developers. I trust you can do it again in another game. However I will miss Belle. I'm very curious about the Belle like character in the new game.
Yeah, there are lots of games about being a photographer, but I feel like most of them miss what is appealing about the concept. I want to take a different approach that will keep things fresh while fully exploiting the best parts of the genre.
This sounds interesting - new ideas are always exciting, and it sounds like you’re upping the ante on some of the mechanics used in adult games. Which engine are you planning to use? As someone with collectible cards in my own game, my main warning would be that this can be a right pain in the arse to manage - especially since your card plans are far more complex than mine. I’d also suggest not making the gameplay too hard - when horny, making complex judgements or calculations of how to best spend resources can either lead to mistakes or be a lust-killer... no-one is at the top of their game playing strip-poker, and there’s a reason strip-scrabble was never invented 😂 I’m sure you’ve accounted for this, but thought it was worth bringing up just in case.
I'm using the latest version of Ren'py. This is something I gave a lot of thought, and it wasn't until I actually got my prototype working in the engine (and feeling good) that I committed to it. Don't worry about the game's complexity. I'm a rigid believer in "easy to learn, hard to master," and that's what I will try to make this game.
Sounds like a great idea to me. I think it could also be used to create slight but meaningful variations to personal preferences through the card game preferences. I think if you really want to make it work you might need a very different approach to the nudity. At least if you want to make it customisable, the amount of render will be insane compared to LLTP. I personally don't need fantastic quality renders if the story is convincing. And more control and variation in the game is something I would like, but I don't know if that's possible.
Yes, there will be a need for many, many renders, but I designed this game in such a way as to make it manageable. There will be shared images between many photoshoots, for example.
I had not expected that my love for LCG's and my love for LLtP would have overlap, but here we are. Honestly, one other thing it reminded me of (not sure if that was intentional or not) is the rogue-like card games like Slay the Spire or Griftlands. Either way, I'm... cautiously optimistic? Change and new directions can be scary, but I think your work with LLtP has shown that you have talent and more importantly the drive to finish a product (remarkably rare, it seems). I'm not saying that I wouldn't have liked another story, but I would like to see what you do with this. Guess we'll all get to find out together. You certainly seem like you've thought about the design direction enough to make this a cool new game.